Hoosier beat down

[GoldenEagles03]

Some of our fans are truly the worst but I suppose that's true for every team. 

Maybe it make make sense to see how this and next year (that's right) progress before losing your sh*t. 

Just enjoying the ride!

The NIL era has really shortened the amount of teams capable of winning a National Championship every year. It's harder to compete at the top and much more confusing in the middle.

Just excited to see this team develop and hopefully position themselves to be in the mix for something special later on.

[MU82]

The NIL era has really shortened the amount of teams capable of winning a National Championship every year.

The opposite is true IMHO.

[panda]

Yes feelings are important. I feel this team has big time issues.

Who are they going to play instead? Tre?

Sean will have to play out of necessity. Nigel looks very real but he can't go 40. He might not even be able to go 25 this early in his career. He will have his own Freshman growing pains too.

Shaka should've never talked him out of transferring

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Today was awful.  I have some close friends that are delusional IU fans. 

Absolutely fair to have questions and concerns but, my God, some of you are absolutely nuts. 

[GoldenEagles03]

The opposite is true IMHO.

You think? Feels the opposite for me.

The teams might change everso slightly each year but it seems like the amount of realistic champs has shrunk. Idk.

[The Sultan]

One of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.

I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?

And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.

[MU82]

One of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.

I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?
 

It's a legit question.

[mug644]

Tower, I think the thread title should've been "Hoosier daddy".

To me, a big difference between this year and the last couple is that the role for each guy is still evolving. Shaka loves to preach about "playing your role to the maximum" and I like the concept. Roles have generally been pretty well defined entering each of Shaka's years at MU. This year, though, there are more moving parts and younger guys might be truly pushing for playing time over guys who've been in the program longer. While that might be good for the long term, it is a challenge now.

[tower912]

It almost was.

Or Hoosier leader going to be?

[muwarrior69]

To my eyes, this game was more about what Indiana did than what Marquette didn't do.

A Shaka defense doesn't give up 100, but most offenses don't shoot 50% from 3 on that volume.

I saw some poor rotations and there were more open looks than there needed to be, but there were substantially more well contested hand in the face type 3P makes by the Hoosiers.
Sometimes, when your opponent makes those it can become very deflating and shake your confidence/energy.

On top of that, I rarely if ever complain about the refs and they didn't screw MU, but that was the most whistle happy and choppy game I've witnessed in person. Can't believe MU was in the 1 and 1 before the 15 min mark in the 1H and still got destroyed.
Just a strange game in a lot of ways.

As for our guys, to me the biggest shock was that they couldn't turn that team over or get them flustered at all, but again when you make 14 3s and lead comfortably for 30 mins it's hard to get shook.

It's also very strange that MU was clearly much quicker and more athletic all over the court and got blown out. Let's not forget that Indiana starts 5 seniors. They won't shoot like that more than a few times all season, and they will have to shoot 40% from 3 to win a lot of tough B10 games because they will be athletically inferior to their opponent, but it bodes very well for DeVries that they don't turn it over and that their mid major guys look to be high major players.

Those aren't excuses, and Shaka does have a problem. He has b2b classes with what *could be only 1-2 BE starting type of players- Zaide and Sean should hold their own, Parham too more often than not hopefully- and that's going to present a problem.
Not to beat a dead horse but he really needs Parham and DO to figure it out and get that sophomore life that Zaide got in the 2H of last year, or else it'll get tough.

I digress. My main takeaway today is that it was a pretty anomalous game, and I'm not sure how useful the tape will be outside of showing missed rotations and lack of help on defense. Otherwise, throw that one away.
Oh, and Nigel James can play.
And Tucker DeVries is a jerk but he's got some solid old man game for the college level

My only criticism of the refs is that they called a very tight game for most of the first half and then all of a sudden what were fouls were no longer fouls.

[mug644]

My only criticism of the refs is that they called a very tight game for most of the first half and then all of a sudden what were fouls were no longer fouls.

That's how I felt about the reffing. It wasn't bad per se, but it seemed very inconsistent. Called much tighter at the beginning of each half than later.

[The Sultan]

It was a typically, awfully reffed game.

[MU82]

If it had been the best-reffed game in the history of basketball, we still would have been crushed. The final score might even have been more lopsided.

[Shooter McGavin]

The difference between Sean vs Nigel's stat line was pretty stark.  Shaka will be loyal to a point.  Hopefully Sean gets it going shortly.  Need two good point guards on the team.  But Nigel needs to play more minutes regardless of who starts.  Too valuable.

[#UnleashSean]

Just posted in game thread:

Marquette's continuity roster got its ass kicked by Indiana's portal roster.

Yup. This is what scares me.

It was an awful game after the first 10 minutes.

[DoctorV]

One of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.

I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?

And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.

This is a very good point.

I've discussed this in the past and caught some heat for my opinion on it, but there's two points I'd like to make that I think have merit

A) Shaka won a BE Title and BET in a season that his team was picked to finish near the bottom of the conference, and it came very early in his MU tenure and in a season where he "stuck with his guys and believed in them/developed them."
I don't put that in quotes because I think it isn't true, it's very true, but there is also a part of it that is just Tyler Kolek/Omax/Oso and their God given talents coming to pasture in one beautifully perfect season.

So, when you see improvement like that from one year to the next, to that extreme and it works to perfection, it follows suit that you would try to, and think you are able to, duplicate it to some extent and some form. This isn't always the case, however. Different players have different abilities, and the year to year improvements aren't linear and don't usually happen to the extent that they did that season.

I don't think the staff is "overrating" the talent that they have on their own team, but they might be "overrating" their ability to make that talent rise to the top year in and year out, if that makes sense, and part of that bravado comes from what happened with Tyler/Oso/Kam etc.

B) I mentioned this with Damarius last season, and it likely applies with Caedin and SJ22 as well. I think it's pretty difficult for the staff to judge which talent will rise to the top or "hide from the lights" on the big stage when the ball is tipped. When you have 15 guys practicing amongst each other and not facing outside competition for 3+ months, and in Sean's case much longer, it's easy to fall into the 'trap' of man this guy looks amazing out there, he's gonna be great right when he steps on the court.
It happened with Damarius last year in the open scrimmages- many, including myself after seeing him for several games, said he would be the next great at Marquette. There is no saying he still can't, but did we all "overrate" what we saw in him or was part of it that he was an athletically gifted and extremely smooth player that dominated some of his less athletic teammates in a no pressure scrimmage setting?

In the same token, Caedin is the strongest interior presence on the team, so he spends months bully balling his teammates and shines in a practice setting, and works his arse off, so it's easy to think man this kid is ready to take the leap.
Not to disparage those two kids but the brights lights are a whole new ballgame.
I also think Shaka once mentioned that Tre could be an all BE pg, so it happens.

I've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.

You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.

Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning

[wadesworld]

Nigel.

Nigel? Starting for IU? Today?

No.

[GoldenEagles03]

Nigel? Starting for IU? Today?

No.

You may be right. I think he's better than Enright though. So wouldn't take long.

[wadesworld]

Why was our 3fga/fga % so low when playing from behind most of the game? Staff. o confident? ugh

Such a grammatically poor post I can't even figure out what the corrections need to be here.

[Markusquette]

This is a very good point.

I've discussed this in the past and caught some heat for my opinion on it, but there's two points I'd like to make that I think have merit

A) Shaka won a BE Title and BET in a season that his team was picked to finish near the bottom of the conference, and it came very early in his MU tenure and in a season where he "stuck with his guys and believed in them/developed them."
I don't put that in quotes because I think it isn't true, it's very true, but there is also a part of it that is just Tyler Kolek/Omax/Oso and their God given talents coming to pasture in one beautifully perfect season.

So, when you see improvement like that from one year to the next, to that extreme and it works to perfection, it follows suit that you would try to, and think you are able to, duplicate it to some extent and some form. This isn't always the case, however. Different players have different abilities, and the year to year improvements aren't linear and don't usually happen to the extent that they did that season.

I don't think the staff is "overrating" the talent that they have on their own team, but they might be "overrating" their ability to make that talent rise to the top year in and year out, if that makes sense, and part of that bravado comes from what happened with Tyler/Oso/Kam etc.

B) I mentioned this with Damarius last season, and it likely applies with Caedin and SJ22 as well. I think it's pretty difficult for the staff to judge which talent will rise to the top or "hide from the lights" on the big stage when the ball is tipped. When you have 15 guys practicing amongst each other and not facing outside competition for 3+ months, and in Sean's case much longer, it's easy to fall into the 'trap' of man this guy looks amazing out there, he's gonna be great right when he steps on the court.
It happened with Damarius last year in the open scrimmages- many, including myself after seeing him for several games, said he would be the next great at Marquette. There is no saying he still can't, but did we all "overrate" what we saw in him or was part of it that he was an athletically gifted and extremely smooth player that dominated some of his less athletic teammates in a no pressure scrimmage setting?

In the same token, Caedin is the strongest interior presence on the team, so he spends months bully balling his teammates and shines in a practice setting, and works his arse off, so it's easy to think man this kid is ready to take the leap.
Not to disparage those two kids but the brights lights are a whole new ballgame.
I also think Shaka once mentioned that Tre could be an all BE pg, so it happens.

I've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.

You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.

Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning

All good points. I think it's worth noting, as you mentioned, that while the true flashes of stardom often show up early, sometimes when an underclassman steps up, it's partly a reflection of playing alongside the older, established talent on the roster. It's one thing to produce as a 6th, 7th, or 8th guy with that support around you, but when you are suddenly thrusted into a bigger role without that buffer, it's not always easy to hit the same mark.

MU was fortunate to be able to have new guys elevate and it was something we could see coming for the last couple of years. This year there was a big question mark. Chase has been the obvious choice, and while he's a very solid player, the overall depth and experience may not mirror the recent past.

I suppose it's ideal to just enjoy the progress of some young hopefuls like James and not get too high or low.

[DoctorV]

All good points. I think it's worth noting, as you mentioned, that while the true flashes of stardom often show up early, sometimes when an underclassman steps up, it's partly a reflection of playing alongside the older, established talent on the roster. It's one thing to produce as a 6th, 7th, or 8th guy with that support around you, but when you are suddenly thrusted into a bigger role without that buffer, it's not always easy to hit the same mark.

MU was fortunate to be able to have new guys elevate and it was something we could see coming for the last couple of years. This year there was a big question mark. Chase has been the obvious choice, and while he's a very solid player, the overall depth and experience may not mirror the recent past.

I suppose it's ideal to just enjoy the progress of some young hopefuls like James and not get too high or low.

Yup. Definitely more ideal, but also much easier said than done.

I'm passionate about sports, I don't want to ever lose that passion.
Should we all just chill a bit? Sure. Would it be as enjoyable? Debatable 😂

[Galway Eagle]

I've also said before that usually the guys that are going to be the greats in the program show signs of it fairly quickly. It takes times to put it all together, but you see it very early on in many/most cases.
-Fans hated Vander Blue but you could see from the jump he was an elite defender (and yes he was one of the all-time greats so knock it off!)
-Tyler looked like one of the best passers in program history very quickly
-Kam was a walking bucket since he walked thru the door
and so on and so forth.

You don't need a ton of those for a program to do well, but you need some of them. Damarius- in the worlds smallest sample size- showed that, at least to many of us, so I'm very hopeful it's just a mental hurdle and a self confidence thing that becomes uncapped and he finds it.
Nigel James has shown he will be an elite pg imo, so that's a great early development. He's just one of those guys that you can tell is built for the big moments, and if his shot falls he can become elite.
I actually *partially* agree with whoever was raving about Adrien's high ceiling, and I think he can be extremely good because I think he will be an excellent 3 and D guy.

Beyond that I haven't quite seen many/any "program great" type flashes and that's a bit concerning

I'm not ancient by this forum's standard but this actually had me thinking of everyone I'd call a "great" or even "leader" since I started following MU in 08-09

3 amigos
Lazar
Jimmy
DJO & Jae
Vander

Then program died off when Jamil Gardner Derrick and Juan were all great role players but not take over quality guys but more great groups of robins to someones Batman

Then Markus & Sam

So i guess this completely subjective non data based analysis is just affirming out that (outside of 2017), every year of decent to good Marquette basketball probably since the amigos were sophomores had an extremely experienced "go to guy(s)" and you're right we all saw it coming with that person stepping into the that position. Chase may need to go full Lazar to get this team over the hump.

[DoctorV]

I'm not ancient by this forum's standard but this actually had me thinking of everyone I'd call a "great" or even "leader" since I started following MU in 08-09

3 amigos
Lazar
Jimmy
DJO & Jae
Vander

Then program died off when Jamil Gardner Derrick and Juan were all great role players but not take over quality guys but more great groups of robins to someones Batman

Then Markus & Sam

So i guess this completely subjective non data based analysis is just affirming out that (outside of 2017), every year of decent to good Marquette basketball probably since the amigos were sophomores had an extremely experienced "go to guy(s)" and you're right we all saw it coming with that person stepping into the that position. Chase may need to go full Lazar to get this team over the hump.

I agree with the list, but you omitted a few of the most recent ones, unless you just didn't mention them because I did.
Tyler Kolek, Oso Ighodaro, and Kam Jones.

I'd remove Sam because although he was a great player while here, I don't think of him amongst the "greats."
Markus is a no brainer as he was transformational, but the combo of not winning plus leaving keeps Sam off the list for me.

As for Chase, it is starting to seem like he might have to go surefire first team All BE and possible BEPoY type of nuke for this years team to be very good. He's a fantastic player, I've always liked him, but it would take an extraordinary season for him to make that list imo. E8/F4 type of season

[Galway Eagle]

I agree with the list, but you omitted a few of the most recent ones, unless you just didn't mention them because I did.
Tyler Kolek, Oso Ighodaro, and Kam Jones.

I'd remove Sam because although he was a great player while here, I don't think of him amongst the "greats."
Markus is a no brainer as he was transformational, but the combo of not winning plus leaving keeps Sam off the list for me.

As for Chase, it is starting to seem like he might have to go surefire first team All BE and possible BEPoY type of nuke for this years team to be very good. He's a fantastic player, I've always liked him, but it would take an extraordinary season for him to make that list imo. E8/F4 type of season

Because you mentioned them I didn't include them.

I'll give you Sam not belonging though as much as I like Oso, I don't think he's on that list any more so than Sam (except for the fact that Oso is forever an MU guy and the other is just someone we used to know) that list has 3 Big East POYs, and 7 of those guys were at least honorable mention all Americans once and of the 3 that weren't one had two of the most clutch shots in MUBB history, the next got us over the first weekend drought, and the other (Wes) you could probably argue doesn't belong relative to the others.