Crean vs Buzz vs Wojo vs Shaka

[tower912]

Why not?   And hopefully the women's basketball thread can get back to, you know, MU women's basketball.


Yay, coaches.

I arrived at MU 40 years ago.   My ranking of MU coaches in that time frame...
8. Dukiet
7.Majerus.  Not a genius while at MU.
6. Deane
5. Wojo
4. KO
3. Crean
2. Buzz
1. Shaka

[Shooter McGavin]

I concur on the order of best to worst coaches.

[Zog from Margo]

The title of the thread confused me a bit because I was not sure how Wojo would be mentioned in that group. That said, I pretty much agree with your ranking. I might give Majerus an incomplete since he was not an HC for long. Based on his actual tenure at MU though, I can't argue with your ranking.

Wojo and Deane are a push for me. Wojo could recruit guys he targeted but had no vision as to how he wanted to play and was far from great at actual coaching. Deane couldn't recruit but was a better at actual coaching than Wojo. (I know one "knowledgeable" fan who claimed the Wojo staff was the best since Al. Yikes.)

Crean got to the FF but Shaka and Buzz are better coaches.

There is a pretty good deal of separation between Shaka and the others in my mind when considering everything.

[tower912]

Wojo and Deane are nearly a push for me, too.   Big difference is that Deane did not recruit like he was trying to raise MU up.  Along with his idea that MU should be content with the NIT with an occasional NCAA run.   Also not a fan of using all of the timeouts early.   But, he generally knew the score.

[Johnny B]

You are like excessively positive/optimistic on any situation imaginable that this program could be in.
Good for you sir

[tower912]

Yes, I am.   


I am interested in how you would rank those 8 coaches.

[HutchwasClutch]

Buzz
Crean
Shaka
KO
Deane
Wojo
Majerus
Dukiet

Buzz and Crean with a slight edge over Shaka with Crean's FF and Buzz's 3 straight NCAA 2nd weekends, including an E8.  Plus their sustained level of success and graduating guys to the NBA.  Shaka could get there, but he isn't there yet all around.  May not be entirely fair after just 3 seasons, but the question is how do they rank today. Shaka's conference regular season and tournament championships in same season get him close to them. 

KO's tenure is underrated I think.  He's close to the top 3.  But I think that speaks more to what top 3 accomplished.   But KO resuscitated this program and left the cupboard well stocked for Deane.

Deane over Wojo because he at least had a clue coaching and getting a team to playing its best ball at end of season multiple years (95-97).  Wojo is only fairly close to him because he did bring in better talent. 

Rick is one of my all time favorites, but MU years were so ordinary in every way his 3 years.

Dukiet- obvious. 

[HutchwasClutch]

Add to my post I am highly skeptical that any of TKO, Oso, and O-Max will achieve anywhere near the level of NBA success of Butler. Wes, Novak, and of course Dwyane. 

[Efficient Frontier]

I think this will ultimately be the order of things, but Crean and Buzz jump Shaka for their post season success.

[Badgerhater]

Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built.  Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake.

Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run.  It was fun until it wasn't.

Shaka—incomplete and could go up or down but all trends are positive.  Will pass Buzz soon.

KO—brought MU back from basket purgatory.  Thank you.

Deane—very good in-game coach, CUSA tourney title.  But that was really boring basketball.

Wojo—nice guy who couldn't coach in a game or make players into a team.

Majerus—wrong place, wrong time

Dukiet—could play the piano

[Badgerhater]

.

[Johnny B]

Can only really rank the guys I was able to watch but
3. Wojo
2. Shaka
1. Buzz
Shaka could jump to one with a few more good seasons or a final four

[Jockey]

Tower, it's always hard for me to rank coaches since I would rank them on just coaching ability rather than recruiting, management, etc.

For total picture, I think your rating is pretty spot on. For just coaching, my ranking would be much different.

[tower912]

I get that.  Deane was a tremendous game coach in an era of a longer shot clock who did not recruit at a high level.  Would succeed even less today.   But he could manage a game.

[WhiteTrash]

I get that.  Deane was a tremendous game coach in an era of a longer shot clock who did not recruit at a high level.  Would succeed even less today.   But he could manage a game.

Deane was a very good game coach. I was at the game versus Sant Clara and Deane had McCaskill guard Steve Nash. Brilliant move, Nash got only about 10pts and MU won.

[MU82]

Tower, it's always hard for me to rank coaches since I would rank them on just coaching ability rather than recruiting, management, etc.

For total picture, I think your rating is pretty spot on. For just coaching, my ranking would be much different.

Except that recruiting is most important of all. That's my opinion, though I don't know how anybody could opine that it's less important.

That Deane didn't aspire to greatness and that he failed completely after KO's talent left puts him behind Wojo, who went to the NCAAT 3 out of 4 years (counting Covid season) before the final flameout.

I agree with tower's order ... except that I was around for Hank, whom I would rank behind KO but obviously ahead of Wojo.

I completely understand those who are putting Shaka behind coaches who went S16-S16-E8 and/or FF, thereby giving Shaka an "incomplete." I'm going with Shaka #1 today because I think he is the best all-around coach of all of them - vision for program, player development, game management, recruiting, motivating, style of play, community involvement, etc.

But I fully recognize that 3 of Shaka's 4 best players so far weren't even his recruits (nor was his best player in his first season) - though he did have to "re-recruit them" - and also that he's only won 3 NCAAT games in 3 years. So sure, there could be some recency bias and simply "I like this person best" in my ranking.

[tower912]

Thanks for the Hank reference.  I should have made it the semi annual 'Best coach since Al' thread.

[mugrad_89]

As someone whose time as a MU student coincided with the Dukiet debacle, I'd rank him even lower if I could.

[tower912]

Add to my post I am highly skeptical that any of TKO, Oso, and O-Max will achieve anywhere near the level of NBA success of Butler. Wes, Novak, and of course Dwyane.

But they will play in the league.   I hope they all can have the longevity of Novak.  His actual career wasn't all that.   But he was there for a while and had a couple of nice stretches.
I think they will all last longer than Buycks. I suspect longer than Juan, too.   I look forward to watching.

[tower912]

As someone whose time as a MU student coincided with the Dukiet debacle, I'd rank him even lower if I could.

If only.

[RubyWiscy]

Unfortunately, I attended MU during the Dukiet years. MU did not beat Notre Dame once in 8 tries. A shame I will never be able to be rid of or forgive. And yes, it was that important in those days.

[WarriorFan]

Re-using or paraphrasing some earlier comments, but in my order:

Shaka—incomplete but all the right things happening.  Already on top in my book

Crean—he put MU back on the map as a program with FF, entry into BE, getting the Al built.  Probably knows now that I4 was a mistake.  Had he stayed could have had it for a good, long time.  He now knows his ambitions were greater than his skills. 

Buzz—Big BE title, very good three season NCAA run. Was never sustainable.  Too much dysfunction.

KO—Was never going to stay, but fit MU perfectly at the time and had he not had such lofty ambitions could have been "the guy".

Majerus—wrong place, wrong time, big shadow, shoes too big to fill.  Somebody had to follow Al, noone was ever going to be Al.

Dukiet / Wojo / Deane - the dark days of MU basketball.  Dukiet was not serious and not very good, Wojo was just bad at everything, and Deane would have been a great assistant but never a head coach. 

[Lennys Tap]

Shaka
Buzz
KO
Crean
Deane
Wojo
Dukiet

Incomplete for Majerus

If you add Al and Hank, Al is #1 and Hank comes after Crean.

[mileskishnish72]

Got to MU in '68 so I've got a different number one. The original list is pretty good, agree with most all of what Hutch and 82 said.

[Viper]

Buzz
Crean
Shaka
KO
Deane
Wojo
Majerus
Dukiet

Buzz and Crean with a slight edge over Shaka with Crean's FF and Buzz's 3 straight NCAA 2nd weekends, including an E8.  Plus their sustained level of success and graduating guys to the NBA.  Shaka could get there, but he isn't there yet all around.  May not be entirely fair after just 3 seasons, but the question is how do they rank today. Shaka's conference regular season and tournament championships in same season get him close to them. 

KO's tenure is underrated I think.  He's close to the top 3.  But I think that speaks more to what top 3 accomplished.   But KO resuscitated this program and left the cupboard well stocked for Deane.

Deane over Wojo because he at least had a clue coaching and getting a team to playing its best ball at end of season multiple years (95-97).  Wojo is only fairly close to him because he did bring in better talent. 

Rick is one of my all time favorites, but MU years were so ordinary in every way his 3 years.

Dukiet- obvious.

your order is my order, and agreed on why.
(btw and imo, if MU had paid KO, he'd have taken MU to a F4...although he seemed to have a nomadic soul. Majerus? Shirtless on Schroeder beach...yikes. Wojo is a great guy..too bad it didn't work out)