How important is the 2nd weekend to you?

[1SE]

Thinking past the next game (A MORTAL SIN!!!) how much does the 2nd weekend matter to you this year in terms of your long-term Shaka support?

Shaka is awesome and I can't say how happy I am with this program. That said, for me Tourney success trumps everything else - the regular season is prelude and winning there matters to me primarily because it puts us in a better position in the tourney. I'd rather go 19-12 and 10-10 in conference and make the E8 as an 8 seed than do what we did last year. I fully trust Shaka to take this team to the S16 and beyond this year, and will be majorly disappointed if we don't - this whole year, throughout the ups and downs, my baseline for success is making the 2nd weekend. As others have pointed out, other than the FF run, Shaka does not have a stellar track record in the tournament. While in NO WAY am I suggesting that his seat should be in any way warm with an early exit, it would raise some doubt in my mind if he's our forever guy if in two consecutive years he can't get a 2/3 seed to the S16.

[tower912]

Shaka's record at Texas was remarkably similar to Wojo''s at MU.   Shaka is at MU because he lost as a 3 seed to 14 seed Abilene Christian.   
   I think Shaka is a far better coach and admire and appreciate what he has done at MU.    I think this team is more than good enough to make the second weekend.  I would be saddened by a first weekend loss, but I accept the vicissitudes of the tournament.    If MU loses, I hope it is not on a Friday in Lent so that I can drown my sorrows with Arby's.

[ATWizJr]

I voted “major disappointment “, but I am easily disappointed. The problem is expectations were so high, returning 4 starters and the great showing in Maui.

[wisblue]

I picked “it would suck” but I would separate my disappointment from drawing any conclusions about Shaka.

I don’t think there is any such thing as a “forever” coach, and Shaka’s record so far shouldn’t even be drawing rumblings of dissatisfaction, except maybe from people whose expectations are extremely unrealistic.

If I could write my own brief response it would be “Losing the first weekend would be a significant disappointment, but I recognize that the tournament is something of a crapshoot”.

I am in the apparent minority that would rather have a solid season with an NCAA seed of at least 4 combined with a second round exit than a season spent on or around the bubble and an advance to the second weekend but no further.

I wouldn’t trade 5 or 6 regular season wins for one extra win in the NCAA tournament that extends the season for 5 days.

[Dr. Blackheart]

In 14 years as a head coach, Shaka has made it to the Sweet 16 once. That was his Final 4 team.

Last season, three Big East teams made the Sweet 16, two the Elite 8.  Its Go Time

[Uncle Rico]

If Shaka fails to make the second weekend, it’s very likely Willie will call him and/or his players dung or refer to genitalia or other orifices to describe them.

He will also likely give Shaka a nickname from which he will never recover from leading him to take the Michigan job and Marquette will hire Brian Wardle

[Goose]

I agree with Dr. B, Its Go Time. I loved the fact that Shaka did not have a great March record at Texas because I believed it was something he needed to correct to improve his resume. He needs to get to the S16 much more than I want them to get there and I like that.

That said, this is far from a disclaimer, but how Shaka runs a program and the kids he has brought to MU has really impressed me. I want tournament success as much as anyone on here and I hope that happens this year. If not, I will take pride in what the program represents and how it is run. If he they get tournament success, I think it will be all the more reason to celebrate the program.

[Mu8891]

Black - I agree completely.

Shaka’s a great coach, but other than the one year at VCU has failed badly in the NCAAT at both TX and MU.  He’s what ? 1 and 6 ?

If they can’t get to S16 and beyond this year …. Then when would it ever happen?

[HowardsWorld]

Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.


I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

[Viper]

I agree with Dr. B, Its Go Time. I loved the fact that Shaka did not have a great March record at Texas because I believed it was something he needed to correct to improve his resume. He needs to get to the S16 much more than I want them to get there and I like that.

That said, this is far from a disclaimer, but how Shaka runs a program and the kids he has brought to MU has really impressed me. I want tournament success as much as anyone on here and I hope that happens this year. If not, I will take pride in what the program represents and how it is run. If he they get tournament success, I think it will be all the more reason to celebrate the program.

Goose, I don’t disagree with you…I want post season wins NOW. I liked Wojo. I thought he recruited good guys that represented MU at a high level, and I feel Woj saved us from a train wreck that could have resulted after Buzz’ departure. But, Wojo could not win consistently, didn’t properly utilize the talent he recruited and, well, we all know the result. Shaka? So far…great!! But…it’s definitely WIN time. We lose in rd 2?… with 2 pro’s in the starting 5 (Scoop consensus opinion), don’t even mention it!! Let’s gooooooo!

[Viper]

Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.


I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

solid 👍

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Its everything to me and it should be everything to everyone else. Whether for better or worse teams success in March is all a program is measured on. Yes, last years titles were nice but lets be real they were overshadowed by a second round loss.

This is the season that we have been waiting for since Shaka got here. We said year 3 or 4 would be the measuring stick. He got Marquette ahead of program last season however if we get upset again before the sweet 16 imo its a failed season with who we had coming back. This would mean we would be upset by a lower seed two years in a row. Whether we get a 2 or 3 seed both of those are expected to reach the Sweet 16.

Maybe its not fair that fans think this way but if we bow out in the 2nd round again this year to me this season while fun is nothing more than what the last 10 years has been.

I wouldn't be disappointed however in a sweet 16 loss and heres why. Once you reach the sweet 16 you are playing teams that are more than likely on par with you. If you are a 2/3 vs 3/2 you most likely share the same resume maybe 1 loss so the seeds are pretty interchangeable. If we were a 2 seed and lost in the sweet 16 to a 11 seed while still upsetting I wouldn't call the season a failure.

I pretty much agree with this except for the 2nd round loss last year overshadowing the regular season and BET titles. Those were awesome, and lift last year way above the ten years prior.

But not making the S16 this year would be an enormous disappointment.

[Zog from Margo]

More important than it should be.

Advancing far in the tournament requires that a team play well, they avoid unconscious shooters, and that the ball bounces the right way. IMO, the key to advancing is making the tournament consistently. Do that and eventually you break through.

[brewcity77]

Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

[nyg]

Black - I agree completely.

Shaka’s a great coach, but other than the one year at VCU has failed badly in the NCAAT at both TX and MU.  He’s what ? 1 and 6 ?

If they can’t get to S16 and beyond this year …. Then when would it ever happen?

You are correct.  In Shaka's last seven NCAA Tournament appearances, going back to his last two years at VCU, he lost in the first round six consecutive years, including MU's blowout loss by 30 to UNC. The lone first round win was last year, then the loss as a two seed to MSU.  Not a very good ten year pedigree, but maybe this year he can advance to another round.  I certainly hope so because next year could be a middle of the pack year.

I am sure MU is pleased with the way Shaka runs the program and quality of the players brought in.  Harvard, Merrimack, Drexel and others all have quality representative players, but at a major basketball school like MU and the resources provided to a coach, the goal is to advance and have a chance at a national title.  Let's hope the team gets on another roll going in the next few weeks and Shaka gets to an Elite 8 position.

[Galway Eagle]

For now we're back in the headlines and competing for conference titles. For a very long time that was what Creighton was viewed as under McDermott. Eventually they broke through and have seen some march success.

March matters and I want us to at least be Xavier pre Travis Steele where regardless of coach they're always in the second weekend but I'm happy with Shaka and the direction. It'd take like 4more first weekend flame outs as a protected seed before I started to get a bit antsy.

[Shooter McGavin]

I agree that it is go time.  You don’t get an experienced/talented roster like this very often.  It needs to be built over 2-3 years at a place like MU.  So a second weekend appearance is vital this year for proof of concept (development over portal).  Would be very disappointed not making it to the second weekend.  And at least a hell of an effort in the sweet sixteen and not an NC or UConn esque blow out. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

I have only went into a regular season for one of my teams thinking "title or bust." One was the '96 Packers, which was great, and the other was the '11 Packers, which was hugely disappointing.

If there was one thing that I learned from the latter of these two, it was that I need to enjoy the ride more as a sports fan. So I never really go into seasons thinking a championship is the only way I can be fulfilled. Why would I set myself for disappointment?

And that's why I never got hung up on the blowout loss to Kansas in '03. The journey to get there was one I will never forget.

So I will be happy with Sweet 16, overjoyed with Final Four, and ecstatic with a championship.

[1SE]

Not sure any of the options really sum where I'm at.

If 2nd weekend is the ultimate destination, I'll be disappointed. Honestly, I'll be disappointed if this season wins with anything other than a win on Shaka's birthday. When we went to the Final Four in 2003, I was a junior and thought it heralded a new era where we would be one of the teams regularly at the top of the sport. Dameon Mason would be the next Wade, Crean would unearth more diamonds in the rough, yada yada yada and we all know what happened. Since then, we've had a couple teams capable of that deep run, but it just feels like we've missed so many time. 2009 we get the James injury, 2014 Blue and McKay leave us and we miss the dance, 2020 the Hausers leave, last year Kolek gets injured 10 minutes into the Vermont game, you all know the history.

The old heads still talk about 1977 and here we are 5 decades later. This team could do things that we are talking about in 5 decades, but we all know how fickle March is. It isn't often you have two future NBA seniors at the two most important positions. It isn't often you return this much and have a team that has shown they can be this good on both ends of the floor. And no matter how this year ends, the odds that we'll be right back here in a year or two or five are pretty slim, simply because it's really hard for anyone outside of a few programs nationally to do that consistently.

I won't be out no matter what happens, but if we lose a game between St. Patty's Day and Shaka's birthday, it will unquestionably be one of the most crushing losses of my life. It will likely leave me with a what if feeling for the rest of my life, the same feeling I get when I think back to James getting hurt, when I think back to Syracuse beating us in 2013, and when I think back to last year when the entire left side of the bracket fractured, but because the same happened to Tyler's hand we couldn't take advantage.

Ultimately, the second weekend doesn't matter at all to me. There's one game that matters, and that's April 8. Anything other than winning that game for me will be pretty much the same result.

I'm a bit surprised Brew given your normally measured takes. Are you honestly saying you wouldn't be thrilled with a FF run this year? This is a very good team - but arguably last year's team was as good and we certainly aren't a UCONN (or even Purdue or UH). In my book, a FF would be fantastic - a title of course would be amazing beyond words.

(I didn't realize we were in the same class) but the 2003 run my Junior year was awesome - yes losing to KU absolutely sucked - but the whole season was amazing. While the 7 hour bus ride back from Minneapolis was a lot more fun than the 15 hour ride back from New Orleans, the difference between going to the FF and going home after Pittsburg was enormous. But going to MSP would still have been a lot better than not making it past Indy.

I too want success beyond the S16 this year - but if we get at least there we are making progress (and making it back to a place we haven't been in a decade). I get the NCAA is a crapshoot - but I want it to be a crapshoot like it is (mostly) for Duke or Kentucky or Kansas - the crapshoot is whether you make the S16 or the title game. I want second weekend to be our floor like it is (mostly) for those programs. Consistent, 2nd weekend+, tourney success is my metric for the program. But winning the title in any given year requires the stars to align - like hitting a hole in 1 - but putting all your shots within 10 feet ups the chance that one might eventually drop.

[1SE]

For now we're back in the headlines and competing for conference titles. For a very long time that was what Creighton was viewed as under McDermott. Eventually they broke through and have seen some march success.

March matters and I want us to at least be Xavier pre Travis Steele where regardless of coach they're always in the second weekend but I'm happy with Shaka and the direction. It'd take like 4more first weekend flame outs as a protected seed before I started to get a bit antsy.

I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

[Goose]

Let's just win the whole thing and put these conversations to bed.

[1SE]

Let's just win the whole thing and put these conversations to bed.

But if we stop the scoop revenue stream will disappear and Topper's kids will go hungry!

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

I would love to make at least the 2nd weekend to silence the casuals who think March is all that matters.

And since Marquette doesn't have to worry about playing in UConn's region, the Final Four is very possible.

But I recognize the tournament is an unforgiving beast. Jay Wright had a 5 year stretch where Villanova was either a 1 or 2 seed.  Three times they lost in the 2nd round.  But those are pretty much forgotten because the other two years were National Champions.

The regular season is more forgiving. Losses to Butler and Seton Hall in conference play are just a blip because the team gets to keep playing.  In the tournament, the party's over.

Until Shaka makes deep tourney runs, 1st weekend exits will always be lamented for what could have been.  But we know this: Shaka can build a BE champ and teams that can earn 2/3 seeds.  We've seen elite offense last year.  This year we've seen very good to great defense.

All of the elements for longterm success are there.  Consistent recruiting and player development will lead to more bites at the apple.  Hopefully this March will be the first of many long tournament runs.  But even if this season ends in disappointment, the longterm outlook remains strong.

[Galway Eagle]

I appreciate that you put the metric out there (0-5) - but that's the counterfactual for the 60% "trust the process" folks - what's the magic number of flameouts? 

Well to me a flame out like last year or in 2019 hurts immediately a lot more than a flame out 2 years ago or 2017. The first two are painful but a couple years go by and the season gets remembered as a good whole season (see 4 seed in 96 for reference, yes people are stilll upset at Austin Croshare but it doesn't invalidate the whole year). So magic number of flame outs? Keep being a protected seed and it's going to be higher than if you mixed a rougher year in.

FWIW I really really really think we'll get it done this year. I can't image there is anything Tyler (and the rest) wants to do more than expunge the taste of MSU.

Agreed. It'd take wheels coming off or running into someone else having a Ja Morant style game to stop them this year.


Ultimately I'd take 4 more season like last year over consistently reliving 2011 any day of the week before I'd consider exchanging the two.

[HowardsWorld]

When people say the second weekend, do they mean the Sweet 16 or the elite 8? Second weekend would imply we won our sweet 16 game.