White Sox/Bears Stadium Showdown

[Dr. Blackheart]

I just think has been greatly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.

This!

Warren wants a downtown stadium built, which will be controlled by the City and Chicago Park District--who will take most of concessions and parking revenues--the very reason the Bears wanted to move to The Heights (including future betting revenues in The Heights as the Bears won't participate in the new lakefront casino).  Currently, the Bears don't pay property tax for Soldier Field (non-profit entity now owns it).

Now the Bears want all the revenues, a property freeze on a dormant property that most likely had agricultural exemptions for a large part of the parcel, and an ownership on the sports betting.  Oh, and they want an extended TIF on the entire parcel, including the mixed use part which includes housing, new schools, hotels, retail, infrastructure, etc.

So which is it? Own the revenues and the obligations or lease?  Watch them pick lease, and then good luck dealing with the environmentalists who blocked the far less intrusive Lucas Museum in the same spot. Reinsdorf schooled them.

[Warriors4ever]

I live in the city, and I would fight tooth and nail  against a new stadium on lakefront land. I would gladly contribute to Friends of the Parks or any other group
filing the lawsuit. It would not be just ‘environmentalists’.

[WhiteTrash]

But the value DID go up. The Bears paid three times what it was previously assessed for. I know that there are differences in many municipalities between "assessed" and "appraised" value, but I don't think I have seen one less than a third of the other.

But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are.  And the school districts are not bound to look after anything but their own interests here. And they know that if the Bears don't negotiate, they have to sell (and a private developer isn't getting anywhere close to the deal the Bears want).

I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.

Having done some property development with public infrastructure "add ons" and significantly increasing property values and the resulting tax revenues off the properties; I'll take the position of not judging the Bears until the end. I personally know these can be very messy processes that can make one or both parties look foolish, ignorant or greedy. My experience is that the "sausage is made in a very ugly way", but for the benefit of both sides, these rock fights have to occur before shovels hit the dirt and not after.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I live in the city, and I would fight tooth and nail  against a new stadium on lakefront land. I would gladly contribute to Friends of the Parks or any other group
filing the lawsuit. It would not be just ‘environmentalists’.

Similar to the Olympic bid resistance. Public dissent.

My point on environmental is that  is a common (and effective) path to block due to the body of law.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving. 

But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization.  It's because they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family.  I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.

FWIW - This is a total Northeast thing also that I hear ad nauseum.  "There's no way in hell my kids are going to school down South.  The public schools here are better than even the private schools down there." 
As soon as the kids graduate high school, "I can't wait to get out of here because the taxes are too high."

[WhiteTrash]

FWIW - This is a total Northeast thing also that I hear ad nauseum.  "There's no way in hell my kids are going to school down South.  The public schools here are better than even the private schools down there." 
As soon as the kids graduate high school, "I can't wait to get out of here because the taxes are too high."

Sounds like and Economics 101 thing.
 

[dgies9156]

But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are.

I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.

On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.

I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.

I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!

If a state wants to give money for a stadium, I don’t have a problem with it. Just don’t bring up faulty economic impact studies.

[Skatastrophy]

On this point Brother Sultan, we absolutely agree! The Bears could mess up a one-car funeral.

I also suspect you and I agree that the state giving the White Sox a $1 billion stadium is nuts! We did that back in the 1980s! Once is enough!

Pritzker is on the same page. He's been a wonderful steward for the state thus far.

> Pritzker has “been dismissive of using tax dollars to subsidize a new stadium for a team worth billions” before the bonds that paid for the team's current South Side home are paid off, but he has “yet to rule anything out until learning of the team's detailed financial plan.”

[DegenerateDish]

Reinsdorf headed to Springfield tomorrow to meet with legislators. Guess here is he will seek a definitive answer before the state legislature adjourns at the end of May.

[Jockey]

Maybe spend time and effort to build a team - then a stadium could be much easier to stomach.

[Lennys Tap]

FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving. 

But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization.  Its becuase they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family.  I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.

I lived in the Chicago area for more than 50 years, the last 45 in a suburb north of the city. I paid very high property taxes for good schools that my 4 kids never went to and paid good size tuitions at St Norbert grammar school and Loyola Academy and Regina Dominican HS. My choice, no complaints or regrets - and I LOVED where I lived. And I stayed there for 15 years after my youngest had completed HS, paying taxes for services I eschewed when available and no longer could use. When I retired I looked at places that were warm, had good golf and were, imo, a good investment (I didn’t think owning real estate in Illinois was all that wise). Sold my house in Northbrook, bought a villa in Naples for half of what I sold my home for. It’s now worth 40% more than my old home is. I don’t feel the least bit guilty about paying property taxes that are 75% lower than those on my previous home.

[MUBurrow]

I lived in the Chicago area for more than 50 years, the last 45 in a suburb north of the city. I paid very high property taxes for good schools that my 4 kids never went to and paid good size tuitions at St Norbert grammar school and Loyola Academy and Regina Dominican HS. My choice, no complaints or regrets - and I LOVED where I lived. And I stayed there for 15 years after my youngest had completed HS, paying taxes for services I eschewed when available and no longer could use. When I retired I looked at places that were warm, had good golf and were, imo, a good investment (I didn’t think owning real estate in Illinois was all that wise). Sold my house in Northbrook, bought a villa in Naples for half of what I sold my home for. It’s now worth 40% more than my old home is. I don’t feel the least bit guilty about paying property taxes that are 75% lower than those on my previous home.

I love a good Florida King^TM!  Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions.  But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally.  Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle."  That's healthy and awesome.  But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.

[WhiteTrash]

I love a good Florida King^TM!  Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions.  But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally.  Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle."  That's healthy and awesome.  But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.

Your going to feel like you want to feel, but big picture that is democracy. These things find their balance with compromise. Happens with income tax rates, defense spending, etc. We all have our own priorities, doesn't make one or the other party bad actors.  And people priorities change over time.

[MUBurrow]

Your going to feel like you want to feel, but big picture that is democracy. These things find their balance with compromise. Happens with income tax rates, defense spending, etc. We all have our own priorities, doesn't make one or the other party bad actors.  And people priorities change over time.

I don't disagree, but this could literally be taken from The Republic.

[WhiteTrash]

I don't disagree, but this could literally be taken from The Republic.

I get it, I get confused with Plato all the time and sometimes Brad Pitt

[Lennys Tap]

I love a good Florida King^TM!  Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions.  But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally.  Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle."  That's healthy and awesome.  But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.

Burrow
I get it. We have similar problems sometimes in the community where I live. Most members want what’s best for the membership as a whole, but a few of the older folks don’t want to spend money on things they won’t use all that much. There’s more to life than one’s individual ROI.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Burrow
I get it. We have similar problems sometimes in the community where I live. Most members want what’s best for the membership as a whole, but a few of the older folks don’t want to spend money on things they won’t use all that much. There’s more to life than one’s individual ROI.

As a Cubs fan, whose stadium redevelopment was paid almost entirely by private funds, why would I pay for a sorry ass Southside baseball team's stadium redevelopment (and as a tax payer)? Move them to Nashville! I get the Reinsdorfs are family friends with the Pritzkers but this has Mike Madigan written all over it.

https://youtu.be/mM_jGBsggjA?si=-zwn-XMUSqkkCtvX

[MUBurrow]

As a Cubs fan, whose stadium redevelopment was paid almost entirely by private funds, why would I pay for a sorry ass Southside baseball team's stadium redevelopment (and as a tax payer)? Move them to Nashville! I get the Reinsdorfs are family friends with the Pritzkers but this has Mike Madigan written all over it.

https://youtu.be/mM_jGBsggjA?si=-zwn-XMUSqkkCtvX

Lenny was responding to my post about funding schools, not the funding the stadium. I derailed the thread in response to a couple of dgies posts so it’s my bad.

[dgies9156]

I love a good Florida King^TM!  Seriously Lenny, I think that's great and take no umbrage with that attitude or those decisions.  But in the spirit of anecdotal comparison vs brother dgies, it has not been my experience that most aspiring or actual Chicago suburban expats look at the situation so rationally.  Instead, as reflected in brother dgies' posts, its about bloodsucking school districts and corrupt state and local governments that leave would-be-lifers no choice but to move. I'm 100% behind the "hey this was a great area and worth the cost to raise a family, but later I'm going to go somewhere else that fits my goals and lifestyle."  That's healthy and awesome.  But I'm triggered by retirees pressuring local governments to suppress the tax base at the cost of quality schools and other public goods that they relied on just a couple decades earlier.

Let me clear a few things up from this post:

1) I'm not retired. I still work at the position I've held for 21 years and in a field I've worked in for more than 40 years.

2) We Illinois ex-pats did not leave because of taxes. We left because of a lifestyle choice. Most of my neighbors with whom we were friends had left for other communities, in Illinois and elsewhere, and our neighborhood was filled with folks in their late 30s. Plus, we were tired of shoveling snow and dealing with Chicago winters. We could have stayed and been quite happy in Illinois (especially because once I retired, I'd have MU season tickets) but we're far happier living adjacent to the beach on Florida's Treasure Coast.

3) When I referred to "Bloodsucking School Districts," I didn't knock the quality of education but rather, I felt the amount of waste for things that were peripheral to the education mission of our school districts is astounding. Case in point: Community 128 spending $30 million for a new swimming pool and the multi-million renovation of the student cafeteria (I think it's $10 million but I'm not sure). There is a notion in our government from federal down to the most lowly township that all you have to do to make something better is to throw money at it. Money helps but it doesn't make up for bad management and an unwillingness to say "no."

4) People ultimately get the government -- and the decisions -- they want. Period. If my old community wanted a $27 million swimming pool, they were going to get it.  Same for unbelievable amounts of money spent on athletics. In too many communities, you had to scrape, fight and all but go war for learning disabled children and children who learned "differently", but God-forbid if you touched the football budget. To that end, if the people of Illinois want Chicago to have a new baseball and football stadium funded by taxpayers -- directly or otherwise -- they'll get it,

5) To be candid,  living down here makes me equally aggravated, for different reasons. If any of you saw 60 Minutes on 3/3/24, they interviewed Moms for Liberty, a conservative "watchdog" group that has culled favor with our governor. The Moms were founded in my current community and their goal is to wipe out of our consciousness any book that mentions sexuality, homosexuality and transgenderism. We've got these nutcases up to our eyeballs here, which really proves that in someplaces in America, the 1950s have not passed!

[Jockey]

2) We Illinois ex-pats did not leave because of taxes. We left because of a lifestyle choice. Most of my neighbors with whom we were friends had left for other communities, in Illinois and elsewhere, and our neighborhood was filled with folks in their late 30s. Plus, we were tired of shoveling snow and dealing with Chicago winters. We could have stayed and been quite happy in Illinois (especially because once I retired, I'd have MU season tickets) but we're far happier living adjacent to the beach on Florida's Treasure Coast.

This is a good point. I think it is usually after they move that people tend to bring politics into it to use publicly as an excuse why they moved rather than what it really was - a lifestyle choice based on their current family's needs and wants.

[DegenerateDish]

I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.

[Pakuni]

I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.

I have no idea how they think they're going to get Friends of the Park on board with multibillion development on the lakefront when George Lucas couldn't even get 17 acres for a museum.

[DegenerateDish]

I have no idea how they think they're going to get Friends of the Park on board with multibillion development on the lakefront when George Lucas couldn't even get 17 acres for a museum.

100% correct. Forgot that very important part as well.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I have no idea where the McCaskey’s are finding $2 billion to fund construction costs (partial at that). They certainly found a way around their property tax issue in Arlington by allowing the city (presumably the park district) to own the proposed new site. Can’t imagine they’ll have much (if any) entertainment revenue near the new-ish site.

What's the NFL chipping in?