White Sox/Bears Stadium Showdown

[Pakuni]

All true. But I have to say it is the best stadium I've been to, in college or NFL, to watch a game. You are very close to the field and not a bad seat in the house. Still, it is time for a change.

Once you get to your seat, it's fine, Most everything else about the experience is subpar.

[WhiteTrash]

Once you get to your seat, it's fine, Most everything else about the experience is subpar.

Yep, just commenting on the seating/viewing experience. Better than AT&T, SoFi & Mile High.

[dgies9156]

What I can't figure out about this entire Arlington Park issue is...how could they not have figured this all out earlier? It just seems like a giant misstep to buy this entire plot of land, draw up a plan for a stadium complex, yet not deal with the tax implications.

Brother Sultan:

Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.

As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land. The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest. The Chicago Bears tore the race track down in anticipation of building a domed stadium and a large number of homes and retail establishments on the space. The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.

Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.

[Jockey]

Brother Sultan:

Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.

As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land. The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest. The Chicago Bears tore the race track down in anticipation of building a domed stadium and a large number of homes and retail establishments on the space. The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.

Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.

I stopped reading this drivel at “bloodsucking school districts”.

[Pakuni]

Brother Sultan:

Illinois has way too many governments for its own good. The inefficiency in governing the state is among the big reasons why the state has some of the highest property taxes in the United States, thus the reason why the bloodsucking school districts are honed in on the Bears Arlington Heights site.

False nonsequitor.

As to the Bears, the dispute is over whether the property should be taxed as a race track or as a chunk of raw land.   

Entirely false.

The property tax paid by Churchill Downs was for an operating horse race track, probably the finest in the Midwest.

False. The track ceased operations in 2021. Churchill continued to pay taxes for two years after.

The argument the Bears make is that without a race track, the property has a dramatically decreased value.

And it was a losing argument.  For obvious reasons, given that the Bears never tried or intended to operate a race track.

Normally, the sale value is an arm's length transaction that constitutes "fair cash value" under Illinois law. But when the property is significantly altered for whatever reason, the fair cash value may change dramatically. That's in effect the Bears' contention, even though they did the altering.

Right, but the value of the property is in its redevelopment potential, not a building that served a dying horseracing industry. The track facilities were an impediment to realizing the property's full value, not the reason for it.

[Lennys Tap]

False. The track ceased operations in 2021. Churchill continued to pay taxes for two years after.

When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.

[Pakuni]

When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.

1. The track sits in Wheeling and Palatine townships, both of which were reassessed in 2022 (after racing operations ended). Also, while standard reassessment in Cook County occur every three years, properties can be reassessed off schedule if they've undergone significant changes. And, of course, a property owner can appeal their assessment annually.
2. The success rate of assessment appeals in Cook County is nearly 40%.

[dgies9156]

When I lived in Illinois residential property was only reassessed every 3 years. Don’t know if that holds true for commercial. Plus in my experience getting property taxes lowered was a non starter. Even after 2008 my taxes didn’t go down.

Lenny,

I lived in Lake County and we received new assessments by the township assessor every year. Beginning in 2008, property values rose even as home prices decreased.

I can’t guarantee why the assessors values were so out of line with market realities, though I have strong views as to why.

For 10 years we prepared rebuttals and we never lost. The arguments were strong and the assessor was consistently wrong.

[Pakuni]

Lenny,

I lived in Lake County and we received new assessments by the township assessor every year. Beginning in 2008, property values rose even as home prices decreased.

I can’t guarantee why the assessors values were so out of line with market realities, though I have strong views as to why.

For 10 years we prepared rebuttals and we never lost. The arguments were strong and the assessor was consistently wrong.

Lake County properties are reassessed every four years.

https://www.lakecountyil.gov/Faq.aspx?QID=242#:~:text=Every%20four%20years%20the%20township,all%20properties%20within%20their%20jurisdiction.

The reason your assessment didn't drop immediately in 2008 is because the assessment is based in part on sales data from the three previous years. This can lead to a lag one way or the other. If the market tanks, your bill won't immediately decline. If the market surges, you won't get immediately walloped.

[dgies9156]

Brother Pakuni:

I lived in Lake County for 28 years. All the time in the same house. Each year, we received reassessment notices from Libertyville Township telling us our valuation changed. They were on blue paper and I believe came in September or October.

Every single solitary year!

Assuming you think I’m not with it, You can go back and look at old newspapers in the local library that published the annual assessment notices. Or, you can go online and check out the Board of Review hearings every year. They’ve been quite busy over the years.

I know my friend because I appealed every year. It took hours to do it but we did. And we won.

There may have been a more formal assessment of some sort every three years but we were reviewed by the Libertyville Township assessor every single year. Ands almost every year after 2008 they were wrong.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Dgies your arguments almost always revolve around your personal anecdotes and feelings rather than the facts at hand.

Regardless I come away from this thinking “this looked like a perfect situation, but the Bears managed to really screw this  up!”

[dgies9156]

Dgies your arguments almost always revolve around your personal anecdotes and feelings rather than the facts at hand.

Regardless I come away from this thinking “this looked like a perfect situation, but the Bears managed to really screw this  up!”

Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.

Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government.

Oh and that pension deficit, estimated to be somewhere between $150 billion and $200 billion? Conservative poppycock! In my imagination. Doesn't exist.

Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too. Must be demented to imagine that a state like Illinois that's so well run would use valuation to extract tax increases. Why of course we all know that all Illinois government has to do is ask voters for more money and the residents of this nirvana would gladly march to the polls, vote in favor and come out saying, "gee, is this all they asked for?"

And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality. That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida. Or why the population of Nashville is shrinking so badly with folks leaving Tennessee to come to Illinois that the powers that be are worried that the birthplace of country music may soon be a ghost town.

Yeah, right.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.

Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government.

Oh and that pension deficit, estimated to be somewhere between $150 billion and $200 billion? Conservative poppycock! In my imagination. Doesn't exist.

Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too. Must be demented to imagine that a state like Illinois that's so well run would use valuation to extract tax increases. Why of course we all know that all Illinois government has to do is ask voters for more money and the residents of this nirvana would gladly march to the polls, vote in favor and come out saying, "gee, is this all they asked for?"

And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality. That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida. Or why the population of Nashville is shrinking so badly with folks leaving Tennessee to come to Illinois that the powers that be are worried that the birthplace of country music may soon be a ghost town.

Yeah, right.

Yeah this is cool and all. But you are simply reinforcing my point that you are letting your personal experiences determine what you think the problem is here.

Show your work and describe what any of this has to do with the situation the Bears are facing. Otherwise your post is simply another multi-paragraph diatribe that has little to do with the subject at hand.

[jesmu84]

Brainrot

[Pakuni]

Of course you're right. That's because Illinois is such a well run state. Government is extraordinarily efficient. Good government experts flock to Illinois to ask, "how can we be more like this?" Illinois' population is exploding, especially among well-educated entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.

Oh and there's Ken Griffin. He just doubled down on the State of Illinois. It's only in my wild imagination that he pulled the headquarters of his private equity fund, Citadel Holdings, and the millions and millions of philanthropy he's done each year and moved to Miami. It's because I must have dementia or something that somehow I recall that Mr. Griffin said it's because of crime in Chicago and the cost of government. 

Sorry, brother dgies, but you're all personal anecdotes and baked-in biases that have little basis in any reality beyond your own. And these paragraphs are a great example.
You claim there's a lack of entrepreneurs seeking to make capital investment in the state.
Here's reality:


There are lots of ways to measure the effectiveness of a state business climate, but perhaps the best way is to track the investments being made by companies into new and expanded corporate facilities.
Conway Data Inc., parent company of Site Selection magazine, has been systematically doing just that for the past four decades, and the findings are telling. In 2021, only two states secured more corporate facility investment deals than Illinois’ 480, which easily topped fourth-place California’s 301.
Over the past 10 years, Illinois has finished among the top five states every time. Illinois’ performance is bolstered by the fact that it is home to America’s most dominant city for economic development. On that scorecard, Chicago ranks first by a mile. No other place in the country has come close to dethroning the Windy City in any of the past 10 years.


https://siteselection.com/cc/illinois/2022/business_climate_overview.cfm

And:
When it comes to landing corporate facility investment projects, few states do it any better than Illinois. In fact, in 2022, Illinois finished second in the nation by winning 487 capital investment deals just one year after finishing third, according to data compiled by Site Selection magazine.
Over the last decade, Illinois has perennially performed at a top-5 state level, and it consistently ranks in the top two or three. Chicago, the state’s largest city, has been the No. 1-ranked metro area in corporate facility performance for the entire past decade, winning yet again in 2022 with 448 projects last year.
https://siteselection.com/cc/illinois/2023/how-illinois-is-building-a-better-business-climate.cfm


Ken Griffin? Good lord. Griffin is a wannabe oligarch who out of a personal vendetta with JB Pritzker twice tried to buy the governor's mansion and then tried to buy the Illinois Supreme Court. Voters saw through it and thoroughly rejected him, so he took his ball and went home (literally ... he's a rich kid raised in Boca Raton) where he unsurprisingly found a governor more willing to do his bidding. He didn't move because of crime  - if he had, he sure as heck wouldn't have gone to Miami - or the business climate. He moved because his billionaire rival kicked his tail three times.

To be clear, Illinois has plenty of problems. But no, it's not the depressed, crime-ridden hellscape you continually insist on portraying it as.

Those letters I got from Libertyville Township .. they're all in my head too.

Nobody said this. I'm sure you may have received some sort of annual statement. And just because your taxes go up doesn't mean your assessment changed. But the fact is, reassessments in Lake County (and every other county not named Cook) occur every four years. That's not me saying it. That's Illinois state law. Look it up.
As I've also written, reassessments to individual properties can occur more frequently if an assessor believes there's been substantial change in value. Maybe that was you. Maybe your assessor just didn't like you. Who knows? But again, here you are again arguing that your personal experience is that of everyone. It's not.

And those 10 years of valuation protest documents that are in my computer under the folder "Property Tax Disputes," well, it's all because I'm out of touch with reality.

Yeah, I already wrote that people can appeal their assessment every year. Sounds like you did. That's smart of you.

That's why I'm the only person who used to live in Illinois and now lives in Florida.

How are your insurance rates?

[MUBurrow]

I stopped reading this drivel at “bloodsucking school districts”.

There is definitely a consistent archetype of "old dudes who raised families in the Chicago suburbs due to the excellent school districts and public services, but are big mad that their suburb didn't turn into a Florida gated community when their kids left home." 

[drewm88]

One thing dgies is right about—Illinois has too many governments. Chicagoland outside the city is ridiculous in the number of tiny little towns. Start merging them and trim some waste from budgets. Same goes for Wisconsin counties.

[Warriors4ever]

I don’t live in Lake County, but Libertyville Township is not the same as Lake County Assessor, so perhaps Libertyville Township had some procedures of their own, while Lake County reassesses every four years.

Ken Griffin is out for Ken Griffin. He once said that the rich have too little influence in government. He was a fan of Scott Walker and Bruce Rauner. He had a contentious divorce from wife #2 that settled hours before what would have been a hugely interesting trial. And yes, he took his ball and went home, figuratively, when he failed to defeat JB Pritzker, among other things.

And never count out Jerry Reinsdorf.

[Pakuni]

I don’t live in Lake County, but Libertyville Township is not the same as Lake County Assessor, so perhaps Libertyville Township had some procedures of their own, while Lake County reassesses every four years.

In the suburban counties, the county assessor doesn't actually do the primary assessment. That's the role of the township assessor (it's flipped in Cook County).
And it's every four years.

What does a Township Assessor do?
Every four years the township assessor is charged with conducting a general assessment of all properties within their jurisdiction. In the general assessment year, the assessor appraises or estimates "fair cash value" (the amount for which a property can be sold in the due course of business and trade, not under duress, between a willing buyer and a willing seller) of all real estate as of January 1 of the general assessment year (most recently 2019). The property is then assessed at 33.33% of the "fair cash value," as determined by the Illinois Department of Revenue's sale ratio studies for the three most recent years preceding the general assessment year. (35 ILCS 200/ 1-50, 1-55) The property assessment value is used to determine each taxpayer’s overall share of the tax burden created by units of local government who are funded by the property tax.

https://www.lakecountyil.gov/Faq.aspx?QID=242

[Warriors4ever]

Thank you, my bad for assuming all counties reassessed the same.
I think it’s crazy that it’s not uniform, but there it is….

[Pakuni]

One thing dgies is right about—Illinois has too many governments. Chicagoland outside the city is ridiculous in the number of tiny little towns. Start merging them and trim some waste from budgets. Same goes for Wisconsin counties.

You're not wrong, but I don't think merging municipalities is likely, especially in the suburbs.
What could, and should, happen is the elimination of township governments.  They do very little, especially in more populated areas, and their functions could seamlessly be rolled into county government.

[Skatastrophy]

Regarding property taxes/assessments in Cook County: Seems like there's some misunderstandings in this thread. Normal because things are complicated.

Property tax assessments for your property do not matter. The only thing that matters is your property's assessed value with regards to everyone else in your community's property tax assessment.

My assessment could go up 100x this year, and as long as everyone else's assessment goes up 100x my property taxes will remain the same. That's because the property tax levy is divvyed up amongst everyone on a percentage basis.

So if everyone's assessments stay the same but the property tax levy goes up? You're going to pay more in taxes the next FY.
If your assessment goes up and everyone else's assessment stays largely the same, you're going to pay more in taxes that year.

That's why comps are more important than the absolute value of your assessment. Your assessment could be "unreasonable," but as long as everyone's is equally unreasonable you're good to go.

[dgies9156]

A couple of final thoughts:

1) The problem the Bears are having -- and yes, it's real in Illinois -- is the concept of a "back door" property tax increase. In Illinois, non-home rule governmental entities, of which school boards are a huge part, can only increase property taxes when a majority of voters approve a tax hike. To get around the problem, governmental entities push for increases in property values. Some of us call it lobbying. It's admittedly difficult to approve a tax increase -- my earlier sarcasm notwithstanding -- so entities like schools rely on consistent increases in property values to ensure they have the financial support they want. If you don't fight them, as the Bears are, you can count on higher and higher values until you do, which result in higher and higher taxes. The Bears are fighting because they know that without a stake in the ground, things will become even more difficult in the years ahead.

2) The semantics aside, whether it is Lake County or Libertyville Township, the results are the same. Taxes go up because values go up. I didn't live anywhere in Lake County except Libertyville, but I doubt seriously the Township assessors are asleep at the wheel on this one.

3) Ultimately, the stadium issue is about leverage. The school districts called the Bears bluff, as the Daleys did years ago. How it works out remains to be seen. As a Bears season ticket holder for 26 years, I would have preferred the Bears stay in the city. I don't know whether they will or won't -- my sense is that McCaskeys don't spend money on speculation so one way or the other they'll somehow end up in the Heights.

4) We've debated the question of Illinois ad nauseum. Ya'll can live in your fantasy world that Illinois is well-governed, the economy is growing and that business prefers paying higher taxes, more regulation and universal government corruption all you want. You can also believe, reality notwithstanding, that people prefer Illinois over Dallas because of legalized abortions -- precisely the ad Lori Lightfoot placed in the Dallas Morning News.

5) The ad hominum fallacy notwithstanding, I absolutely love Chicago and it's quite saddening to see what's happening in local government. For the record, we spend between two and three months a year in Illinois and last  summer, we were down on Diversey near Broadway and Clark. I don't worry about crime -- it happens -- but I do worry about the economic viability of a city and state with the level of debt and pension obligations Chicago and Illinois have. Unless the intent is to have the federal government assume Illinois' obligations, those pensions have to be paid. That's why we rent and didn't buy!

6) To Brother Skatastrophy's point about valuation consistency, that's not correct. In several of our appeals to the Lake County Board of Review, that was exactly the point the Libertyville Township Assessor made. I looked at the Board of Review and the Assessor and point blank said, "then you're consistently wrong," and "perhaps I  need my neighbors to consistently appeal." As Brother Pakuni said in trying to tell me I was full of nonsense, Illinois statutes require the Township to reassess based on fair cash value. Nine of the 10 years I won, I directly cited 35 ILCS 200/ 1-50, 1-55 as a reason for rejecting the Township appraiser's valuation. The 10th year was inapplicability of the comparative companies.

One other final point. I know my adversaries think I'm MAGA Republican. Nothing could be further from the truth. The notion of turning my neighborhood or my community in Libertyville into a gated community would appall me. That's a stereotype I could do without. While most of us prefer our governments to be efficient as possible, we also have a deep sense of compassion for our fellow men and women. Our belief is predicated on our view that people need to take the creativity they have and work to make society better. Many of us just believe that there is a better option that government to do this.

And, Brother Muggsy, many of us also believe in protecting animals!

[MUBurrow]

One other final point. I know my adversaries think I'm MAGA Republican. Nothing could be further from the truth. The notion of turning my neighborhood or my community in Libertyville into a gated community would appall me. That's a stereotype I could do without. While most of us prefer our governments to be efficient as possible, we also have a deep sense of compassion for our fellow men and women. Our belief is predicated on our view that people need to take the creativity they have and work to make society better. Many of us just believe that there is a better option that government to do this.

FWIW, my comment was mostly apolitical, at least in the national sense. I didn't mean it to accuse you of MAGA tendencies. Its that I could pay a significant bar tab if I had a dollar for every current or former Chicago burb resident I've met between the ages of 55-75 who gladly took advantage of great schools, effective public services, and close proximity to Chicago and ORD while their kids were growing up, but now claims that Chicagoland SALT and local governance is a unicorn of mismanagement and the reason they no longer live there or are contemplating moving. 

But that's just unnecessarily dishonest rationalization.  Its becuase they no longer want to pay for resources they aren't consuming. I know that's true because whenever I hear where those people have or are contemplating moving, its always somewhere that wouldn't have raised their family.  I'm sure there are tons of examples of stupid, or even crooked, management decisions at the local level. But that's true everywhere.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

But the value DID go up. The Bears paid three times what it was previously assessed for. I know that there are differences in many municipalities between "assessed" and "appraised" value, but I don't think I have seen one less than a third of the other.

But my larger point in this is...why did the Bears get into this mess to begin with? They presumably know all the points you raise dgies, yet here we are.  And the school districts are not bound to look after anything but their own interests here. And they know that if the Bears don't negotiate, they have to sell (and a private developer isn't getting anywhere close to the deal the Bears want).

I just thing has been greatlly mismanaged by the Bears from the beginning.