NFL playoffs.

[Jockey]

Talent + hard work has a FAR FAR FAR lower chance of success than talent + hard work + super wealthy.

For limited success? I think I would agree.

For success - as in becoming the most powerful entertainer in the world? Hardly.

[Pakuni]

I really admire how quickly Brock Purdy has gone from MR. Irrelevant to starting QB in a Super Bowl.   What an amazing story.   Which could start a lengthy discussion about how the hive mind can be so high on the Trubisky's, Pickett's, Darnold's of the world and so low on him.   What did everyone miss?

NM

[lawdog77]

Watched the Taylor Swift Folklore Long Pond Studio Sessions documentary. She's pretty damn talented if you ask me.

[JWags85]

I don't believe this is correct.
According to this, she recorded her first demo in 2002:
https://www.nydailynews.com/2015/01/10/exclusive-the-real-story-behind-taylor-swifts-guitar-legend-meet-the-computer-repairman-who-taught-the-pop-superstar-how-to-play/

And according to this, she wasn't connected with Dymtrow until a year later:
https://web.archive.org/web/20121011190303/http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/Forums/entsports/PublicDocuments/oppositionbrief.authcheckdam.PDF

As for her parents taking her for singing lessons ... so? Earl Woods was taking Tiger for golf lessons pretty much from the time he could stand. Walt Gretzky had Wayne playing hockey when he was 2.
Is their success somehow less deserved or earned?

She wasn't recording the kind of demo you shop to labels.  I used to play in a band with guys that got signed to a major label a year and change after they started a new project.  I used to play shows in college with a singer songwriter who ended up getting signed at 19 and dropping out of college to tour.  Signing with/engaging a notable/high level manager after writing a song or two and no studio demo, much less as a young teen, is extremely abnormal and the opposite of the organic growth.  It's basically pay to play jumping the queue and forcing career development.  It is what it is, but gotta at least be honest about it, not "precocious songwriter hustles demo around and gets noticed"

And that's not the same thing at all.  It's not just a guitar or vocal lesson.  It's vocal and acting lessons and getting a talent manager who also gets her into modeling for the biggest teen brand at the time.  Again, plenty of teens with talent managers turn into nothing, but again, at least call it what it is.  And it's not "organic" bedroom demos turning into a magical career from nowhere.  If Earl Woods took Tiger to golf lessons but then paid to get him onto teen tours or some elite golf academy, before he ever showed the golf chops, where he got full training and management and connections into the PGA tour, it's still amazing that he became a superstar.  But it's not fair to say he hustled it all on his own on munis like Lee Trevino or Bubba Watson

That's a totally common and normal way for musicians to get noticed. These events are, in fact, created for that purpose, especially in the Nashville scene. I mean, SXSW basically started as a showcase and in some ways still is today. Would you say all the acts that have launched from there were somehow less legitimate?

Of course, but my unknown 15 year old neighbor with his garage demos isn't getting a spot at SXSW or getting into an exclusive industry showcase.  The narrative that she was some unknown who got spotted at an open mic at Bluebird is what is silly.  She'd already been connected to two different labels in Nashville by that point.  She/her father didn't like the deals being offered which is why she was still open and why Big Machine was attractive (being brought in as an investor didn't hurt).

Again, I don't care for her but I'm not suggesting she's a hack or untalented, but I've always been annoyed by the relentless pushed narrative around her come up, and I don't at all agree with her being the most authentic or organic.  I've actually heard from acquaintances that she's actually quite nice in person, and I don't think she's some monster.  But she/her team control the narrative/story around her as meticulously as Rodgers. 

And nobody, NOBODY, connected in entertainment that isn't a Swiftie believes her myriad PR romances.  I won't comment on Kelce as of now, but the fact that sources are already spinning ENGAGEMENT COMING seems a bit fishy.  Again, doesn't make her a monster, doesn't make her an untalented nepo baby, but she's no different than plenty of pop stars now and before her, just with better marketing.  Call it what it is.

[Uncle Rico]

That's a totally common and normal way for musicians to get noticed. These events are, in fact, created for that purpose, especially in the Nashville scene. I mean, SXSW basically started as a showcase and in some ways still is today. Would you say all the acts that have launched from there were somehow less legitimate?


Of course, but my unknown 15 year old neighbor with his garage demos isn't getting a spot at SXSW or getting into an exclusive industry showcase.  The narrative that she was some unknown who got spotted at an open mic at Bluebird is what is silly.  She'd already been connected to two different labels in Nashville by that point.  She/her father didn't like the deals being offered which is why she was still open and why Big Machine was attractive (being brought in as an investor didn't hurt).

Again, I don't care for her but I'm not suggesting she's a hack or untalented, but I've always been annoyed by the relentless pushed narrative around her come up, and I don't at all agree with her being the most authentic or organic.  I've actually heard from acquaintances that she's actually quite nice in person, and I don't think she's some monster.  But she/her team control the narrative/story around her as meticulously as Rodgers. 

And nobody, NOBODY, connected in entertainment that isn't a Swiftie believes her myriad PR romances.  I won't comment on Kelce as of now, but the fact that sources are already spinning ENGAGEMENT COMING seems a bit fishy.  Again, doesn't make her a monster, doesn't make her an untalented nepo baby, but she's no different than plenty of pop stars now and before her, just with better marketing.  Call it what it is.

It's why Rodgers wanted to date her and he's so jealous of Kelce. 

[Pakuni]

Signing with/engaging a notable/high level manager after writing a song or two and no studio demo, much less as a young teen, is extremely abnormal and the opposite of the organic growth.  It's basically pay to play jumping the queue and forcing career development.

You didn't read the second link I provided did you? Fair enough; it is kind of long.
It's Dymtrow's lawsuit against TS, recounting how they got together. In his account, he was contacted by a friend who had heard TS' demo in the fall of 2002. He listened, liked what he heard, and invited TS and her mom to a meeting several months later. At that meeting, TS performed for him, he again liked what he heard and he signed her.
The suit also recalls that prior to signing with him, TS shopped her demo around unsuccessfully, leading her family to decide to seek representation. Which is weird, since you say there was no demo prior to the "hot shot" manager.
Anyhow, explain how this is substantially different from any other performer getting representation? How is this "forcing" career development? Manager heard the music, met the artist, heard the artist perform in person, signed the artist. That's how it works.

It is what it is, but gotta at least be honest about it, not "precocious songwriter hustles demo around and gets noticed"

Except that's exactly what her former manager says happened.

If Earl Woods took Tiger to golf lessons but then paid to get him onto teen tours or some elite golf academy, before he ever showed the golf chops, where he got full training and management and connections into the PGA tour,

So, Taylor Swift's parents bribed her way into an elite singing academy (Juliard?) and Disney/Nick concerts?
Didn't know that.

The narrative that she was some unknown who got spotted at an open mic at Bluebird is what is silly.

Literally no one here has suggested this. Who exactly are you arguing with?

[JWags85]

You didn't read the second link I provided did you? Fair enough; it is kind of long.

    Passive aggressive condescending snarkiness in an otherwise civil discussion is always cool

It's Dymtrow's lawsuit against TS, recounting how they got together. In his account, he was contacted by a friend who had heard TS' demo in the fall of 2002. He listened, liked what he heard, and invited TS and her mom to a meeting several months later. At that meeting, TS performed for him, he again liked what he heard and he signed her.
The suit also recalls that prior to signing with him, TS shopped her demo around unsuccessfully, leading her family to decide to seek representation. Which is weird, since you say there was no demo prior to the "hot shot" manager.
Anyhow, explain how this is substantially different from any other performer getting representation? How is this "forcing" career development? Manager heard the music, met the artist, heard the artist perform in person, signed the artist. That's how it works.

I remember the case.  It was a classic jilted manager royalties lawsuit. FWIW, that's his testimony in a lawsuit against the Swifts where he is intentionally playing up his role in her career as he got dumped right before her signing with Big Machine.  I remember hearing at the time that their contention was that they sought him out.  It was settled out of court I believe, so we don't actually know.  We can agree to disagree, but that lawsuit did bring to light the obsessive and hard charging role her parents had in creating and pushing her career, make of that what you will.

So, Taylor Swift's parents bribed her way into an elite singing academy (Juliard?) and Disney/Nick concerts?
Didn't know that.

Orrrrr being shepherded by label execs and A&R from the very advent of your career.   Some stars hone their talents organically playing coffee shops, open mics, small tours.  Others get signed at 14 before even recording an EP and have well connected management guide every career move from that point.  That's even more conducive to career success than going to Berklee or Julliard

Literally no one here has suggested this. Who exactly are you arguing with?

You do this all the time.  You assume that everyone's perspective or argument is solely revolved around the discussion here.  I can assure you my mind and opinion on Swift as an artist and persona was made up well before any mention here.  And my countering of your opinion was fueled by evidence outside of our back and forth.  Everything I refer to that annoys me has been endlessly parroted by the media, Swifties, social media commentary, etc... You personally may not be considering the Bluebird aspect in your assessment of her, but it's a key component in the story that people commonly use to talk about her "humble" origin story or her authenticity as an artist like she was a young Loretta Lynn grinding as an unknown teen in cafes before she was plucked from obscurity.

But hey, YMMV.  I know plenty of normal non-obsessive T Swift fans and that's cool by me.  Love Story and Shoulda Said No still slap

[Pakuni]

    Passive aggressive condescending snarkiness in an otherwise civil discussion is always cool

Thats not at all how it was intended and mea culpa if it reads that way. I honestly was trying to cut you slack for having not read it.

If your position here is that the manager is lying in his legal complaint and you know the real scoop of how their relationship came into being, I don't know how to respond to that. So I won't.

[MU82]

Nm

[tower912]

Not gonna lie.  I would rather see Taylor than a shirtless Jason Kelce.

[Hards Alumni]

She wasn't recording the kind of demo you shop to labels.  I used to play in a band with guys that got signed to a major label a year and change after they started a new project.  I used to play shows in college with a singer songwriter who ended up getting signed at 19 and dropping out of college to tour.  Signing with/engaging a notable/high level manager after writing a song or two and no studio demo, much less as a young teen, is extremely abnormal and the opposite of the organic growth.  It's basically pay to play jumping the queue and forcing career development.  It is what it is, but gotta at least be honest about it, not "precocious songwriter hustles demo around and gets noticed"

And that's not the same thing at all.  It's not just a guitar or vocal lesson.  It's vocal and acting lessons and getting a talent manager who also gets her into modeling for the biggest teen brand at the time.  Again, plenty of teens with talent managers turn into nothing, but again, at least call it what it is.  And it's not "organic" bedroom demos turning into a magical career from nowhere.  If Earl Woods took Tiger to golf lessons but then paid to get him onto teen tours or some elite golf academy, before he ever showed the golf chops, where he got full training and management and connections into the PGA tour, it's still amazing that he became a superstar.  But it's not fair to say he hustled it all on his own on munis like Lee Trevino or Bubba Watson

Of course, but my unknown 15 year old neighbor with his garage demos isn't getting a spot at SXSW or getting into an exclusive industry showcase.  The narrative that she was some unknown who got spotted at an open mic at Bluebird is what is silly.  She'd already been connected to two different labels in Nashville by that point.  She/her father didn't like the deals being offered which is why she was still open and why Big Machine was attractive (being brought in as an investor didn't hurt).

Again, I don't care for her but I'm not suggesting she's a hack or untalented, but I've always been annoyed by the relentless pushed narrative around her come up, and I don't at all agree with her being the most authentic or organic.  I've actually heard from acquaintances that she's actually quite nice in person, and I don't think she's some monster.  But she/her team control the narrative/story around her as meticulously as Rodgers. 

And nobody, NOBODY, connected in entertainment that isn't a Swiftie believes her myriad PR romances.  I won't comment on Kelce as of now, but the fact that sources are already spinning ENGAGEMENT COMING seems a bit fishy.  Again, doesn't make her a monster, doesn't make her an untalented nepo baby, but she's no different than plenty of pop stars now and before her, just with better marketing.  Call it what it is.

Exactly.  Especially the last two paragraphs.

I don't go running from a room if Taylor Swift is on, and some of her stuff is catchy.  I just don't believe anything about her.  She may be genuine and a lot of people have said as much.  But she doesn't seem REAL to me.  Everything about her and her actions seems so contrived.

Plus, how can you possibly trust anyone who is friends with Brittany Maholmes?

[wadesworld]

If wealthy people want to give people who work for her $55MM in gifts for some ulterior motive, I'm okay with it.

There are a lot worse people in pop culture out there than Taylor Swift.

[cheebs09]

I blame this all on Kanye for making her famous.

[tower912]

Tell me you are old without telling me you are old.


But I will make my nearly annual proposal to move the Super Bowl to Saturday.

Dan Patrick agrees with me.

[Jay Bee]

Music biz is tough. I remember getting offered a record deal. Had to decline because a requirement was going on tour for two weeks straight and I couldn't be issue of "real" work.

Bummer

[MU82]

"If you win a Super Bowl before you're fired, you're a genius, and everyone listens to you. But a coach is just a guy whose best class in grammar school was recess and whose best class in high school was P.E. I never thought I was anything but a guy whose best class was P.E." - John Madden

[Silkk the Shaka]

LOL she's a child of rich parents who had all the tools to be successful.  She writes good songs, but is only an okay singer.  I find her to be completely contrived by a PR firm and as inauthentic as they come.  I totally agree with JWags here.

Exactly. Only disagreement is the good songs comment. They're white noise that sound like they were written by a Jack Antonoff AI bot. People can like whatever they want and I get that I'm not the target market, but I don't think I've come across a more overrated musician or one even close. I get that it's mainly for tween girls and that's fine! The all-encompassing ubiquity leaves me a bit confused though to say the least.

[The Sultan]

Exactly. Only disagreement is the good songs comment. They're white noise that sound like they were written by a Jack Antonoff AI bot. People can like whatever they want and I get that I'm not the target market, but I don't think I've come across a more overrated musician or one even close. I get that it's mainly for tween girls and that's fine! The all-encompassing ubiquity leaves me a bit confused though to say the least.

Don't be confused. People like what they like. It will eventually peter out.

[GB Warrior]

This is all a very weird argument to me. "Good" is the perfect internet argument. I think the fact that she's been able to spam the algorithm of what's been successful and popular at any moment in time is a credit to her creativity and versality as a musician and businesswoman. Good is whatever pays the bills, so I guess she's "good".

And that's before we get into the argument of whether she has her finger to the pulse of what is popular or is defining it. She might be inevitable at this point.

[Not all scoop users are created equal apparently]

Imagine if Jackson Mahomes wasn't in all that legal trouble for all this.

[Uncle Rico]

Chiefs 27 49ers 23

[JWags85]

Chiefs 27 49ers 23

27-20 Chiefs wins my wife $1500, so lets go with that.

[tower912]

Go, Wags wife!   Seriously, no rooting inrerest, so I will root for her.

[MU82]

Chiefs.

[tower912]

For those who care and drink, may as well make it the Taylor Swift drinking game.   See Taylor, drink.