Non-con grade

[PointWarrior]

Is it permissible to give NIL money contingent on beating Bucky?

There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

[brewcity77]

Also, you kind of referenced coming into the year ranked in the top 5 and not being that anymore. If playing to our preseason ranking is a consideration, we also played 2 teams that came into the season (and are currently) ranked higher than us this year. So 9-2 would've been expected.

Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

[muwarrior69]

There have been threads or posts on scoop over the years that completely blew my mind and this is one is the climbing the ladder quickly. They played the best non conference schedule in school history, been ranked between 3-8 all season, has a first team AA, up to to 4-5 potential NBA players and we are debating a grade and comparing this team to other MU teams is crazy, imo.

As for having high expectations for the team and program, I believe my posts over the years indicate I have an extremely high bar and this team has delivered the goods. Any fan on here that grades a season based on beating UW is officially not a serious basketball fan. Two nearly flawless games against top 12 teams is how I will remember this NC portion of the season.

I hear ya. My dad loved his cars. Every weekend, especially in the summer, he wash and wax his "babies". I come out and say, "Dad the car looks great!" All he could see was the tiny ding or scratch.

Some scoopers are like my Dad, all they can see is that ding or scratch. Of course some scoopers view the UW loss as a total wreck.

[Viper]

I hear ya. My dad loved his cars. Every weekend, especially in the summer, he wash and wax his "babies". I come out and say, "Dad the car looks great!" All he could see was the tiny ding or scratch.

Some scoopers are like my Dad, all they can see is that ding or scratch. Of course some scoopers view the UW loss as a total wreck.

...it was a final lap turn 4 wall banger at Indy

[Uncle Rico]

...it was a final lap turn 4 wall banger at Indy

It was one loss to a ranked team on the road.

[Goose]

ISE and brew

What are the expectations for BE play? As for me, I want a healthy run of good basketball and be ready for March. I thought 9-2 non conference and 15-5 BE.

Truthfully I have no idea what both of your views were on the team and program five years but I know mine were MU was light years from being elite and I voiced that often. As they sit today, this team is elite and the program is getting closer to being considered elite. IMO, the first 11 games solidified this team being elite and improved the program's overall status.

As for acting like a blue blood, there are a helluva lot of MU fans that need to learn what a blue blood program looks like before they can act like they have been there before. This program has seen modest runs of success in the last 45 years and you do not become blue blood in two years. I believe Shaka will get MU to elite program status but it has been 2+ years.

[brewcity77]

I had 18-2 in Big East play. I still think that's doable, though I would change which ones the losses were.

I don't think we're a blue blood. Similarly, I don't think of Arizona or Houston as blue bloods, but I think both are very good this year and should expect to win against the vast majority of opponents. I think we should too.

It will take years of sustaining this to be considered close to a blue blood. We're a couple national championships and a couple more Final Fours in the next 10-15 years away from approaching that conversation. But this team is damn good. We have the potential to start down that road with this team.

[Goose]

brew

Were you excited about the 2018 start of the season? Did you think the program was on the rise that year?

[MU82]

Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

So if the #1 team in the country goes 11-0 with a bunch of Q1 wins, it only gets a C ... or a B- if the grader is generous?

[wadesworld]

Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

9-2, in my book, was going to be a very good performance in the non-con. Especially considering we played Purdue in place of what I expected to be Tennessee. A grading of C (or B-) would not reflect that.

If we were 9-2 with a schedule of at Wisconsin, a top 10 team neutral, and 9 cupcakes then yeah. That's not good. But it was our toughest non con in my life. And we're in line for a 1 or 2 seed.

[Viper]

It was one loss to a ranked team on the road.

Shaka can't beat Big Ten teams, right?

[Uncle Rico]

Shaka can't beat Big Ten teams, right?

Nope

[brewcity77]

brew

Were you excited about the 2018 start of the season? Did you think the program was on the rise that year?

Yes, and I think we pretty much all were. That was the team where it looked like Wojo had put it together. A little longer than hoped for, but we had a couple stars and a foundational roster that should've been together for 2 more years. And the defense was finally not terrible.

2018 was akin to 2022. I thought we had the tools to take it to the next level and it was the year that would set the foundation for what could be a Final Four team the next year. The biggest differences were that Shaka finished the job by winning the Big East while Wojo's team came up short and Shaka kept the team together the next year while Wojo lost key starters.

It really shows where we are now that Shaka elevated us in 2 years beyond Wojo's heights in 7 total years.

[CountryRoads]

Yes, and I think we pretty much all were. That was the team where it looked like Wojo had put it together.

The pinnacle of the Wojo era (3:00-3:50):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EGvbvpj6KDU

[Goose]

brew

What do you think the signature W was in 2018 that caused your excitement that MU had the makings of a FF team? I struggle to see any win that compares with this season. In fact, I think the loss to Purdue and the win Illinois are better than any of three wins against ranked opponents at the FF. IMO, the current MU program is so far beyond any other time in recent history that it is crazy to even compare them with past teams over the past four decades.

[PGsHeroes32]

Yes. 9-2 would be expected which makes it average. C is average. So you agree, I'm being generous with a B-.

Huh??

I expected an A in 9th grade trigonometry

I wasnt average

[Dr. Blackheart]

So if the #1 team in the country goes 11-0 with a bunch of Q1 wins, it only gets a C ... or a B- if the grader is generous?

The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

[warriorfred]

The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

Agree.

Expectations Matter.

[MU82]

The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

We're mostly in agreement, Dr. B.

And again, the #1 team going a dominant 11-0 would be exactly where I thought it would be, so a C would be appropriate for a team that failed to exceed expectations.

[warriorfred]

Just went through employee reviews.  A "Meets Expectations" amounts to a average/slightly above average review (3 out of 5) and you receive the standard cost of living adjustment and your bonus target.  "Exceeds Expectations" (4 out of 5) gets you a higher COLA and higher bonus.  "Superior" (5 out of 5) gets you a promotion, higher base and higher bonus.

Based on the work product so far, it would be difficult for me to promote the Warriors.

[MU82]

The more I'm reading here, the more I realize just how terrible our non-con effort was. I am so pissed that we didn't win them all, and do so by at least 20 points apiece.

I am sick of this underperforming bunch of losers that Shaka-Dukiet keeps running out there, and I wish we had K.O. back to curse them, their mothers and their grandmothers. After that mail-it-in second half against ND, he'd have had them running gassers at the Old Gym until they puked.

My F-minus-minus-minus is starting to feel overly generous.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The question put forward is versus your "expectations" not versus other teams.  Fortunately, KPom, TRank, the polls answer your question: A

But if you answer the question as asked, a C is perfectly legit. It's about where Brew thought they'd be. For me, a bit better than expected at B with some upside to realize. To justify an A on my scale, MU would have only lost to Purdue (so yes that clunker versus the Badgers is a ding as it was another loss to a team that a Shaka's offense has major stylistic issues with).

In that lens, an A is a 13th place ribbon grade, unless you had MU losing 3 or more games in the preseason like Hermie did.

The question put forward at the beginning of the thread is "what grade" not "what grade based on your personal expectations". I don't know about the rest of you but when I received grades growing up, they were not based on the teacher's expectations of me personally, but rather their expectations for the entire class.

Based on the standard of a typical grade, I can't see an argument for anything lower than A- (if the "class" is high major teams) or A (if the "class" is all D1).

If you want to have a conversation about grade vs. expectations, I personally think it's a C-. They've mostly been what I expected but have a few more flaws than I was expecting.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just went through employee reviews.  A "Meets Expectations" amounts to a average/slightly above average review (3 out of 5) and you receive the standard cost of living adjustment and your bonus target.  "Exceeds Expectations" (4 out of 5) gets you a higher COLA and higher bonus.  "Superior" (5 out of 5) gets you a promotion, higher base and higher bonus.

Based on the work product so far, it would be difficult for me to promote the Warriors.

You're doing employee reviews wrong (or applying the metaphor incorrectly). "Meets expectations" isn't about meeting your personal expectations of a specific employee, it's about meeting the expectations for the average employee in that position.

For example:
Employee A: Goes into year with high expectations based on past performance. Meets those sky high expectations but doesn't exceed them.
Employee B: Goes into year with low expectation based on past performance. Greatly exceeds those rock bottom expectations, becoming a competent employee....but is still significantly underperforming compared to Employee A.

By your logic, you would promote Employee B and give Employee A a "meets expectations". I'm assuming you wouldn't actually do that and are just applying the wrong metaphor.

[Uncle Rico]

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

[brewcity77]

brew

What do you think the signature W was in 2018 that caused your excitement that MU had the makings of a FF team? I struggle to see any win that compares with this season. In fact, I think the loss to Purdue and the win Illinois are better than any of three wins against ranked opponents at the FF. IMO, the current MU program is so far beyond any other time in recent history that it is crazy to even compare them with past teams over the past four decades.

You misinterpreted the comparison. 2018 and 2022, so comparing 2018-19 to 2022-23. Both years I believed we were good enough to win the Big East and both years we should've brought everyone back the next year (so 2019-20 and 2023-24) to compete for a national title. We should've won the Big East in 2019 (Markus' injury and Wojo's mismanagement cost us) while we did it last year. We would've been a NC contender in 2019-20 if everyone comes back (and if there's a tourney) and we are one this year.

Honestly, though, the question was "What is your grade for the non-com season?" and the grade I give this team is the B- I give them. An A would've required us to win Maui and beat Bucky. So yes, undefeated at this point would be an A. We're not undefeated, so it's not an A. If people want to consider me a harsh grader, so be it, but I'm grading this team on the curve they created by doing what they did last year and by the expectations for this year. I still think we can win the Big East, win the BET, get a 1-seed, go to the Final Four, and win the national championship. And I will base any season long grades on whether they do those things or not. If other people want to compare them to the Big East average and give them an A for a top-4 league finish and earning an NCAA bid, then that's their prerogative. But it's not my standard.

Also...I get that it's cool to hate on the Wojo era, but that string was a blast. K-State, Bucky, and Buffalo in a 21-day span in front of absolutely electric crowds while Howard just toyed with opponents, the Creighton OT win with Markus going for 53, starting 12-2 in the Big East, that year was fun and the team was good. Then it all went to crap and that's where the end of the Wojo era started. But I can acknowledge the good parts of it as well.