Non-con grade

[brewcity77]

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

It's my fault, apparently I can't hold this team to high standards without upsetting the Scoopiest Scoopers.

[warriorfred]

You're doing employee reviews wrong (or applying the metaphor incorrectly). "Meets expectations" isn't about meeting your personal expectations of a specific employee, it's about meeting the expectations for the average employee in that position.

For example:
Employee A: Goes into year with high expectations based on past performance. Meets those sky high expectations but doesn't exceed them.
Employee B: Goes into year with low expectation based on past performance. Greatly exceeds those rock bottom expectations, becoming a competent employee....but is still significantly underperforming compared to Employee A.

By your logic, you would promote Employee B and give Employee A a "meets expectations". I'm assuming you wouldn't actually do that and are just applying the wrong metaphor.

We are fairly close on this.  In your example, Employee B is in a different (lower) role than Employee A.  Consequently Employee A, in a different role has different (higher) expectations.

Looking at projects, goals, and objectives for the year, and based on job functions and past performance, Marquette is in a different (higher) role.  Start the season ranked 5 in the AP, with average fan base expectations of Final Four, and the overall expectations and job requirements are higher.  Marquette in the Top 10, has much different job requirements and expectations than a school ranked 25.

At this point (mid year review) Marquette should be 6 in the AP poll on Monda, had some big wins (Kansas and Texas) had a tough loss (Purdue), and underperformed against the Badgers.  Overall, a positive review of Exceeding Expectations, but not Elite performance.

Would not recommend promoting Marquette at this time, but there are number of unfinished projects: Big East season, Big East Tournament, and NCAA Tournament.  We'll see how they perform in the four (4) months.

[Goose]

brew

I asked what grade did you give the 2018 non-conference part of the season. I know you have gave this year a B-.  For the record, in my previous post I said my grade for 2018 was a B+. I also liked the start and the games you noted. That said, that was nowhere near the non-conference that MU just completed.

I also hoped that 2018 was turning point for the program but struggle to see any comparison to the current state of the program. To me, I was hoping back then, today I know the program is here to stay as long as Shaka is the HC.

I respect your fandom and enthusiasm but think you missed the mark in this thread. Based on your evaluation of this non-conference I think you are going to be disappointed more often than not. IMO, this was the best and most exciting start to a season since 1978.

[brewcity77]

brew

I asked what grade did you give the 2018 non-conference part of the season. I know you have gave this year a B-.  For the record, in my previous post I said my grade for 2018 was a B+. I also liked the start and the games you noted. That said, that was nowhere near the non-conference that MU just completed.

I also hoped that 2018 was turning point for the program but struggle to see any comparison to the current state of the program. To me, I was hoping back then, today I know the program is here to stay as long as Shaka is the HC.

I respect your fandom and enthusiasm but think you missed the mark in this thread. Based on your evaluation of this non-conference I think you are going to be disappointed more often than not. IMO, this was the best and most exciting start to a season since 1978.

I don't remember grading it in the moment. Feel free to dig and find it, but I'm not really here to rehash 2018-19 again other than to acknowledge it was an awesome ride for the first few months of the season, especially at Fiserv.

And I wasn't disappointed by this non-con. I don't know why anyone would think that. That's why I gave them a B- despite what I consider to be C results. I really don't care because this non-con meant very little, IMO.

My disappointment will all come in March or April. Lost to Purdue? I didn't love it, thought we had some bad breaks in that game and if Kam's late effort drops I have zero doubt we win in overtime because they once again got lucky to beat us. Lost to Bucky? Also didn't love it, but I'm not that invested in December non-con games and I forgot about it by the next day. When asked about it at work, I told people "I didn't see that any differently than if the Bucks lost a game in December on the road to the Bulls. Not ideal, but has zero impact on my outlook for the season." Came close against St. Thomas? Tip the cap at the effort, but do not care in the least.

And my own expectations are going to change season to season. In year one, I thought we could be on the right side of the bubble and we were. I was pleased with how that went. Last year, I thought we were about a top-15 team coming into the season because I thought the offense was radically better than most expected and thought the defense would improve. We exceeded even my expectations. This year, I think we're a top-5 NC contender. So I'm going to base my evaluation on that. Next year, I'll look at what we are and make a determination that that point. I anticipate lower expectations in October 2024 than I had two months ago.

Regardless, I haven't been disappointed at all since we hired the guy I wanted for the job. And even if we don't cut nets on his birthday this year, my disappointment is based on long-term results. I want a national title in my lifetime. My hope is that gives me about 40 years to see it. I'll see plenty of disappointment in that time, but if I avoid it once, I'll be more than satisfied.

[Elonsmusk]

A really I think the loss at Madison isn't getting enough Maui hang over talk.  I know that I was still kinda turned around a week after I got back.  Not a right off excuse...I'm just saying they played flat with no energy...maybe they actually had low energy?
Anyway with a schooling of Kansas and a gem in Champaign these boys earned an A.

I agree with this analysis.

[Goose]

brew

This was the most significant non-conference schedule and performances in decades. It showed the national audience last year was not a fluke and this year MU is better. This is how a program is built. Recruiting becomes easier, more money to NIL, more credibility to Shaka a coach and MU as a program.

November and December saw very meaningful games played and created an outstanding early season resume. On paper, and on computer rankings, MU has very little opportunity to pad a resume aside from winning every game outside of UConn and Creighton.

In my mind, there are a handful of road games against teams ranked sub 50 in the rankings that are tough outs. MU should handle business but only MU fans will care if they beat Villanova , Providence or Butler on the road. Losses there will hurt MU and wins will keep them steady.

Again, there is no one a bigger backer of long term than me, but the first 11 games were another major part of building the foundation for long term success. I am changing my A- to an A+ because of what this means to the program moving forward.

[brewcity77]

Until we cut nets on a Monday in April, I'm leaving a margin for improvement. But if people want to call it an A+, that's the power of Scoop. You can all do you, the only difference is I'm not going to bother begrudging people their opinions in this thread.

[Dr. Blackheart]

The question put forward at the beginning of the thread is "what grade" not "what grade based on your personal expectations". I don't know about the rest of you but when I received grades growing up, they were not based on the teacher's expectations of me personally, but rather their expectations for the entire class.

Based on the standard of a typical grade, I can't see an argument for anything lower than A- (if the "class" is high major teams) or A (if the "class" is all D1).

If you want to have a conversation about grade vs. expectations, I personally think it's a C-. They've mostly been what I expected but have a few more flaws than I was expecting.

Then the thread is a stupid one as we get a grade versus everyone else in the classroom after every game from KPom.  It's even adjusted on the curve for us.

[1SE]

Goose - at the start of the season I would have expected 17-3 in conference. Now I'd expect 16-4.

If one grades on a game by game basis (say out of 10 pts) I can see a plausible case under that approach for giving a B+ overall grade. I don't see how anyone gets to an A without saying they're just going to ignore UW (and STU) - if you're going to ignore the UW loss, you might as well ignore the KU win.

My grade was probably thinking more along vs. expectations - nicely proxied by the spread - where ATS is a "C". Given we were 5-5-1 ATS a B- is reflective of some of the really expectational performances (KU, Ill, Tx)

And of course these grades are team specific - DePaul against that slate it would be an A++++++ non-con.

But - like Brew - all I really care about this season (and really every season) is March success. Non-con only matters in that it sets us up better or worse for that.

[MU82]

All facetiousness aside, it appears that most of us are on the same page as for this season being all about what happens in March and April.

That's definitely where I am. Winning the Big East again would be lovely, but doing so or not doing so will not affect how I feel about this team. I would have absolutely no problem if Marquette produces an exact replica of UConn's 2022-23 season, even if that includes the 2-6 stretch UConn endured last winter and a loss in the BET semis.

Final Four or Bust should be the absolute minimum expectation for this team. And really, it's time to win an effen title. If we get upset in the second round, I won't call for Shaka's job, but I'll be extremely disappointed, much more than I was last March - and I was plenty disappointed last March.

Related: As I told real chili in another thread, as each game approaches I will expect us to win it. I am a realist so I know we won't win 'em all, which is why I didn't pick us to go 20-0 in the BEast season. No individual loss will scar me unless it occurs after March 18.

[Newsdreams]

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

But at least has stayed on topic.

[lawdog77]

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

Well, this all could have been avoided if the OP used your grading scale

[Uncle Rico]

Well, this all could have been avoided if the OP used your grading scale

It's not complicated

[PointWarrior]

Does the thread meet or exceed your expectations of scoop?

This might be Scoop's scoopiest thread and that's saying something

[tower912]

Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

COLE

[tower912]

I am COULE when it comes to scoop.
Cult
Of
UNBELIEVABLY
Low
Expectations

[wisblue]

All facetiousness aside, it appears that most of us are on the same page as for this season being all about what happens in March and April.

That's definitely where I am. Winning the Big East again would be lovely, but doing so or not doing so will not affect how I feel about this team. I would have absolutely no problem if Marquette produces an exact replica of UConn's 2022-23 season, even if that includes the 2-6 stretch UConn endured last winter and a loss in the BET semis.

Final Four or Bust should be the absolute minimum expectation for this team. And really, it's time to win an effen title. If we get upset in the second round, I won't call for Shaka's job, but I'll be extremely disappointed, much more than I was last March - and I was plenty disappointed last March.

Related: As I told real chili in another thread, as each game approaches I will expect us to win it. I am a realist so I know we won't win 'em all, which is why I didn't pick us to go 20-0 in the BEast season. No individual loss will scar me unless it occurs after March 18.

I am in the apparent minority that does not consider this season (or any season) to be all about what happens in March and April.

Success in the NCAA tournament can be an ultimate goal and something that can be hoped for, but I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of 4 1/2 months of basketball if all that mattered to me was what happens in 1-3 weekends in late March and early April.

Do you really consider making the Final Four to be a "minimum expectation" for this team? In my dictionary if you expect something to happen you must think it has more than a 50% chance of happening. I doubt if you would be willing to make an even money bet on MU making the Final Four.  If you are, I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd be willing to take you up on it.

Pull out the sophomoric COLE label all you want, but I enjoy supporting and following a team that is entertaining and competitive with a realistic shot at a conference title and deep NCAA run. But I'm not taking a Final Four or Bust attitude. 

[MU82]

I am in the apparent minority that does not consider this season (or any season) to be all about what happens in March and April.

Success in the NCAA tournament can be an ultimate goal and something that can be hoped for, but I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of 4 1/2 months of basketball if all that mattered to me was what happens in 1-3 weekends in late March and early April.

Do you really consider making the Final Four to be a "minimum expectation" for this team? In my dictionary if you expect something to happen you must think it has more than a 50% chance of happening. I doubt if you would be willing to make an even money bet on MU making the Final Four.  If you are, I'm sure there are a lot of people who'd be willing to take you up on it.

Pull out the sophomoric COLE label all you want, but I enjoy supporting and following a team that is entertaining and competitive with a realistic shot at a conference title and deep NCAA run. But I'm not taking a Final Four or Bust attitude.

I absolutely will enjoy the journey, as I did last season. I already have enjoyed it; I thought the non-con portion of the schedule was entertaining and satisfying despite the couple of losses.

I will continue to get into each and every game, several of which I will travel to attend.

But yes, my ultimate grade for this season will depend on how it ends.

Hopefully with our heroes cutting down the nets.

We Are Marquette!

[wisblue]

Yes, hopefully we're discussing the relative merits of being 4 or 5 on the S come March.

I get what you're saying but maybe some of our bracketologists can weigh in - I don't think those S paths are real likely once all the other considerations come in (protected seed locations, conference match ups, etc).

I mentioned in my post that the bracket does not precisely follow the S curve. But usually (and it was this way last year for the top 32 teams) teams are placed in the seed line that corresponds to their place on the seed list.

That being the case, the difference in the seed rankings of the opponents faced by  a 1 seed and a 2 seed in any given round (assuming the higher seeds have advanced) could be between 1 and 7, and should  usually be closer to 1.

Win probabilities are a slippery concept but, based on Pomeroy's win probabilities, the difference in the win probability for a given team facing a team ranked X and that same team facing a team ranked X+7 (much less X+1) is significantly less than 10%.

[wisblue]

I absolutely will enjoy the journey, as I did last season. I already have enjoyed it; I thought the non-con portion of the schedule was entertaining and satisfying despite the couple of losses.

I will continue to get into each and every game, several of which I will travel to attend.

But yes, my ultimate grade for this season will depend on how it ends.

Hopefully with our heroes cutting down the nets.

We Are Marquette!

Basing an ultimate grade or feeling about a season on how it ends is much different than expecting a Final Four appearance.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Exactly meets my expectation of scoop.

Scoop Marketing Department sux!!!

[MU82]

Basing an ultimate grade or feeling about a season on how it ends is much different than expecting a Final Four appearance.

OK. You can be Sultan of Semantics II.

[DoctorV]

Last year drastically changed things for me when it comes to how I view the season as a whole.
We are all huge basketball junkies and passionate fans, and that run last year was an all timer for me because I wanted a conference title so bad.

I was one of the first to talk about in late January/early Feb and I would have been very disappointed if Marquette didn't win the BE Title.
The two main reasons were because
1- Marquette had not won an outright BE title, and the previous split one was one of my favorite seasons.
2- I knew that winning a Conference Championship would last forever, and a loss was more than likely inevitable in the NCAAt so I wanted that special season to last forever.

Then the fellas went out and one upped it with a BET title to add the icing on the cake.

So, now we have both as fans, but we are yearning the March Madness success.
I'm now so invested after last season that I want a dynasty to begin. How does that happen?
Well winning a Natty or getting to a FF. Much more possible this season than other seasons, but still always a tall task no matter the season.
OR
Win several BE Titles in a short span, rinse and repeat.

Of course Villanova did both, and that's the ultimate, but again that's an extremely difficult thing to do.

So, even thought a National Championship is the ultimate dream and a single one would be enough to let us all die happy, winning BE titles is now a thing and I'd like to see Marquette continue that. So let's go.

[MUfan12]

I've often thought about what it would be like if Marquette won it all. How incredible that would be.

This is one of the few years where that doesn't seem like a distant dream. Would hate to see a chance like that go to waste with another early exit. So yeah, the lens I view this season through is different than past years.