Bobby Knight

[The Sultan]

I would rank Smith ahead of Knight.   On the court and off.

How about this. Knight was the better coach early on. Smith adapted better.

[tower912]

Nope.   I said what I said.

[JWags85]

I think you may be underrating just how good UNC was before MJ came along.
In the 15 seasons pre-Jordan, UNC went to six Final Fours and  and three title games. They produced eight all-Americans and future NBA all stars like Bob McAdoo, Bobby Jones, James Worthy and Charlie Scott.
MJ obviously added luster to the brand, but they were an elite program long before he was on the scene. I don't think it's fair to suggest Dean in part owes his late-career success to MJ's brand.

I'm not underrating UNC as a program, nor implying that MJ was the sole/main reason Dean Smith was so successful after. I'm just saying it didn't hurt in helping an old coach at the tail end of his career in a very different age of basketball than the majority of his success.  Especially when UNC went almost a decade without a FF berth after Jordan left while Duke became a monster in the mid/late 80s with a much younger coach and "newer" brand

[The Sultan]

Nope.   I said what I said.

Then I will disagree. Knight was clearly better early on.

[Pakuni]

Then I will disagree. Knight was clearly better early on.

Clearly?
Knight's first 15 years at IU: 269-117 (.696), three Final Fours, two national titles, eight conference titles
Smith over those same years: 277-118 (.701), four Final Fours, one national title, 10 conference titles

(Note: I think my addition is right here, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

[The Lens]

Complicated is the right word.   All of the things said, good and bad, have basis in fact.    An all time great coach.    Criminal charges in Puerto Rico.   Choked a player.   Got into it with a student, which ultimately got him fired.  (Take that, Dabo)   
   I remember marveling at his coaching.  If I had the talent, I would not have wanted to play for him.   I would not have let my son  play for him.

Choked a player.  LOL.  We have a patch on our jersey for a guy who punched a player.

I would love for my son to be recruited by Knight.  I would hope i could play for him. It would be a badge of honor to survive that.

[tower912]

You can have it.

[Jockey]

You can have it.

I with you on this one. I never minded a coach that yelled at me - it meant he was paying attention to what I was doing - but physically abusing players is way over the line.

[The Lens]

I with you on this one. I never minded a coach that yelled at me - it meant he was paying attention to what I was doing - but physically abusing players is way over the line.

AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!

[Pakuni]

AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!

He should not have done that.

[The Lens]

A friend of a friend once said this...

What people don't see, what they don't understand about Bob
is that he's a warm, sensitive, and funny guy. Yes, funny. The
problem with Bob's sense of humor most of the time is that he
never smiles when he tells a joke. Half the time people don't know
he's joking because they look at his face and all they see is this
deadpan. By the time they realize he's kidding, it's too late.

I think some people know about the warm and sensitive side.
I think this book will show that side quite a bit and I'm glad. Bob
always tried to act so tough— all the screaming and yelling. He's
really not tough, not at all. Get by that and ask for help— or don't
ask for help— and he'll be the first one to offer it. All the critical
things he says about his players— try and criticize one of them
and see what kind of response you get. Be ready to duck, too.

What Bob is, more than anything, is intense. He is intense
about everything he does. If he takes you to a restaurant he wants
you to love that restaurant just the way he does. If you watch
his basketball team he wants you to think it's a great basketball
team— unless he doesn't think it's great. He loves to compete.
He loves to win. But it's never that simple with him because
nothing is simple with Bob. He wants to know how you won and
why you won. And he has to know how you lost and why you
lost. That's to make sure it doesn't happen again. I always used
to say just, "let's win and get the hell out of here." Bob can't do
that. He has to ask all the questions and get all the answers. Until
he does that, he isn't satisfied.

[Dr. Blackheart]

AL MCGUIRE PUNCHED A PLAYER!

I think the player PUNCHED first!

[The Sultan]

Clearly?
Knight's first 15 years at IU: 269-117 (.696), three Final Fours, two national titles, eight conference titles
Smith over those same years: 277-118 (.701), four Final Fours, one national title, 10 conference titles

(Note: I think my addition is right here, but please correct me if I'm wrong)

Hey I guess if you frame it the way you want you get the results you want. Knight was clearly the better coach from when he took over at IU through when they met head to head in 1981.

[The Sultan]

He should not have done that.

Knight not only choked Neal Reid. He did it and then kicked him off the team so he transferred. After Reid's college career was done, he came forward with the allegation.   Knight denied it, only to have the video surface later.

Way different circumstance than Al. And yeah Al shouldn't have done that.

They really aren't comparable circumstances.

[4everwarriors]

T-Cubed had a flower pot tossed at his coconut, aina?

[tower912]

I was a huge fan of Bobby Knight the coach in the 80's and early 90's.    Loved his work in Blue Chips, too.   His keeping Steve Alford at home is partially responsible for my marriage. (So, mixed blessing )   His later years soured me on him somewhat.   He definitely belongs in the pantheon.    I just think Dean was a smidgen better.

[MU82]

A friend of a friend once said this...

So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!

Look, I don't think anyone here is calling Knight "evil." I have heard numerous stories about the many, many good things he did, behind the scenes, for his players and former players. But he was physically, psychologically and/or emotionally abusive to 18-22 year olds. He went after moderators at NCAA tournaments and others who weren't associated with his program, people who were just doing their jobs.

And he was petty as hell. For years, he shut both Coach K and Alford out because he perceived they had "wronged" him - K merely for being a more successful coach. He only let them back in after they came to him hat in hand and apologized - as if they had any reason to apologize. Perhaps Neil Reed should have apologized for getting his neck in the way of Bobby's hands.

[The Sultan]

I was a huge fan of Bobby Knight the coach in the 80's and early 90's.    Loved his work in Blue Chips, too.   His keeping Steve Alford at home is partially responsible for my marriage. (So, mixed blessing )   His later years soured me on him somewhat.   He definitely belongs in the pantheon.    I just think Dean was a smidgen better.

Fair assessment

[rocket surgeon]

So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!

Look, I don't think anyone here is calling Knight "evil." I have heard numerous stories about the many, many good things he did, behind the scenes, for his players and former players. But he was physically, psychologically and/or emotionally abusive to 18-22 year olds. He went after moderators at NCAA tournaments and others who weren't associated with his program, people who were just doing their jobs.

And he was petty as hell. For years, he shut both Coach K and Alford out because he perceived they had "wronged" him - K merely for being a more successful coach. He only let them back in after they came to him hat in hand and apologized - as if they had any reason to apologize. Perhaps Neil Reed should have apologized for getting his neck in the way of Bobby's hands.

  yeah, but at least the friend noted bobby respected erin andrews as a sports reporter and didn't denigrate her femininity

[Pakuni]

Knight not only choked Neal Reid. He did it and then kicked him off the team so he transferred. After Reid's college career was done, he came forward with the allegation.   Knight denied it, only to have the video surface later.

Way different circumstance than Al. And yeah Al shouldn't have done that.

They really aren't comparable circumstances.

I didn't compare the circumstances.

[Pakuni]

Hey I guess if you frame it the way you want you get the results you want. Knight was clearly the better coach from when he took over at IU through when they met head to head in 1981.

I'm framing it using standard measures of success for a coach. 
How are you framing it?

[Uncle Rico]

  yeah, but at least the friend noted bobby respected erin andrews as a sports reporter and didn't denigrate her femininity

2 out of 10

[JWags85]

So what your friend of a friend is saying that Bobby Knight was only joking when he choked Neil Reed, kicked him off the team and lied about it. And he was only joking when he physically confronted a student for having the audacity to address him as "Knight" instead of Mr. Knight. Bobby simply wasn't smiling during all that, but it was all in fun!

That friend of a friend that is referred to is actually Al...FWIW.

[The Lens]

That friend of a friend that is referred to is actually Al...FWIW.

Somebody gets it. 

[Uncle Rico]

Somebody gets it.

Just because Al defended Bobby and was friends with him gives Knight's boorish behavior a pass