Bobby Knight

[Goose]

Not that I care, but if you google Bobby Knight there are a ton of videos with him stumping for Trump. For some reason I thought there were multiple posts regarding Bobby stumping for Trump in the last campaign season.

[MU82]

Was also unaware Knight supported Trump.    As to my kid playing for Knight, my kid had a verbally abusive travel baseball coach.   Two kids quit the team with anxiety issues.   Mine swore to never play travel baseball again.  Talked him out of quitting the game completely and he has had two successful high school seasons.   I found out the coach was kicked out of the travel organization after my son walked away because this behavior was a habit.
      My son knows he does not respond to coaching by verbal abuse.   Ergo, I would not let him play for coach Knight.   Nor would he want to.

That's why we're a soft country.

[Uncle Rico]

Not that I care, but if you google Bobby Knight there are a ton of videos with him stumping for Trump. For some reason I thought there were multiple posts regarding Bobby stumping for Trump in the last campaign season.

I vaguely recall him stumping for Trump, but I thought that would have been 2016.  By 2020, Bobby was already in failing health.  That’s when he went back to IU and didn’t look that good

[rocket surgeon]

As usual, roQQet, you don't know what you're talking about.

Now go fire another female employee for supporting cancer victims and keep worshipping a 91-felony criminal defendant who bragged about sexually assaulting women.

  never fired her for "supporting cancer victims" and my God, i've never admitted to worshiping hunter biden...no no NO NO NO

[Goose]

Rocket

82 loves playing up to the the crowd. He has shown his true colors multiple times over the years and his schtick is comical.

[real chili 83]

 This is a great listen…

I had Chad Hartman on yesterday live with his daily show on WCCO.  Chad, because of his dad’s close, personal relationship with Bobby, knew him for several decades.

This is a great, 30 minute cut from Chad’s show yesterday on his first hand experiences with Bobby.  Definitely worth a listen.

https://www.audacy.com/podcast/chad-hartman-5788a/episodes/randy-wittman-and-a-full-hour-on-the-life-and-legacy-of-bobby-knight-f68a4?action=AUTOPLAY_FULL&actionContentId=201-fd5be275-ff8b-4c2e-8c79-52cc1d3a0274

[Lennys Tap]

When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.

You mean when I wrote “people love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - PARTICULARLY DEAD PEOPLE THEY DON’T KNOW”? Yes. I was referring to dead people, in this particular case Bob Knight. You knew that, of course, but couldn’t resist the urge to to be dishonest by omission.

It seems to me that most of the people who knew him loved him in spite of his obvious failings, while most of the people who didn’t know him hated him for those same failings.

[Goose]

Lenny

It seems to me that Mopes are the group that have the biggest dislike for Knight. Not surprised.

[Pakuni]

You mean when I wrote “people love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - PARTICULARLY DEAD PEOPLE THEY DON’T KNOW”? Yes. I was referring to dead people, in this particular case Bob Knight. You knew that, of course, but couldn’t resist the urge to to be dishonest by omission.

It seems to me that most of the people who knew him loved him in spite of his obvious failings, while most of the people who didn’t know him hated him for those same failings.

It shouldn't be this hard, Lenny. You are, no doubt, an intelligent person. Too intelligent to miss the obvious.
In your rant about people harshly judging a guy they didn't know, you harshly judged a bunch of people you don't know.
Get it now? I was pointing out the pretty obvious irony of your post.

It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).

[JWags85]

Guys-

The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip.  It’s facts and part of his life and legacy.  He was an abusive a-hole.

He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people.  That’s awesome and important in telling his story.

All of these things are his legacy.  If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you.  He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player.  Those are the facts.

I think thats all fair.  I think he was a person who had a lot of light...and also a whole heck of a lot of dark.  But that doesn't make him an indefensible a**hole...nor does it make him some unfairly attacked victim, just a complicated person who was also one of the best to ever do what he did.

I only have an issue with these sort of depictions when people need it to be all or nothing.  Glossing over his black eyes is delusional Pollyanna Hoosier nonsense, but needing to caveat anything he did with "but he was an absolutely terrible person" is the stupid modern need to label someone in absolutes, especially since 99% of the people who do so have never had a single in person interaction with the person, or if so, it was incredibly fleeting.

[Lennys Tap]

It shouldn't be this hard, Lenny. You are, no doubt, an intelligent person. Too intelligent to miss the obvious.
In your rant about people harshly judging a guy they didn't know, you harshly judged a bunch of people you don't know.
Get it now? I was pointing out the pretty obvious irony of your post.

It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).

Rant? A tad judgmental in your characterization, imo.

You are also an intelligent person, and as one it shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. I don’t have a problem with people making judgements about the particular actions/behavior of another. People do wrong things, including but not limited to choking players, yelling at students or judging a dead person’s life that they know little about - all the time. Acknowledging that this is poor behavior is common sense. Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.

[Uncle Rico]

I think thats all fair.  I think he was a person who had a lot of light...and also a whole heck of a lot of dark.  But that doesn't make him an indefensible a**hole...nor does it make him some unfairly attacked victim, just a complicated person who was also one of the best to ever do what he did.

I only have an issue with these sort of depictions when people need it to be all or nothing.  Glossing over his black eyes is delusional Pollyanna Hoosier nonsense, but needing to caveat anything he did with "but he was an absolutely terrible person" is the stupid modern need to label someone in absolutes, especially since 99% of the people who do so have never had a single in person interaction with the person, or if so, it was incredibly fleeting.

With Bobby Knight, I get the dislike.  I didn’t like Indiana or him.  I came around after that game in ‘98 when Teddy Valentine ran him on senior night.  And when Indiana fired him, at the time, I thought it was a raw deal (It wasn’t.  He brought it on and I believe he was itching for a fight with the school by that point).  People often hate winners when it ain’t their team winning.  It’s part of fan behavior.

I enjoyed his success at Texas Tech while Indiana floundered and found him enjoyable as a color guy most nights. 

I do find it odd that most people here can point both things out, other than muhoosier, and somehow people are disliking him in pointing out his full biography.  Controversial lives have controversial legacies.  Being a good coach and winning a lot of games doesn’t absolve the abusive behavior towards people. 

Anyway, I posted a link on page one of this topic, an article by Frank DeFord on Knight.  It’s pretty incredible writing and delves into Knight the person quite well.  I’d also recommend Charles Pierce’s piece at Defector about Bobby Knight.

I’d finish by saying, we give college coaches pedestals they don’t deserve based on winning games.  Players speak highly of coaches that don’t win games and don’t abuse players but we dismiss them because of won-loss records.  When you read the obits about Knight, the one thing that should stand out is, beyond winning, he actually believed in the whole student-athlete thing and he refused a salary larger than what the highest paid professor got.  His defenders will point to that, his critics will dismiss that.  Ultimately, most don’t care because it always comes down to the winning.

[Uncle Rico]

Rant? A tad judgmental in your characterization, imo.

You are also an intelligent person, and as one it shouldn’t be difficult for you to understand. I don’t have a problem with people making judgements about the particular actions/behavior of another. People do wrong things, including but not limited to choking players, yelling at students or judging a dead person’s life that they know little about - all the time. Acknowledging that this is poor behavior is common sense. Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.

Who has said on this message board his life wasn’t worthwhile?  I think you’re grasping for straws here. 

[Mutaman]

Rocket

82 loves playing up to the the crowd. He has shown his true colors multiple times over the years and his schtick is comical.

Goose: I learn a lot from your basketball analysis but your politics suck.

[Mutaman]

It should be noted, by the way, I have said nothing negative about Bobby Knight in this thread, other than my belief that Dean Smith was better. (And he was).

Smith was a liberal and Knight was a Know Nothing. On the other hand didn't the Roy Williams scandal touch on Smith and didn't Knight run a clean program? Its complicated.

[Mutaman]

I'd really be curious what his graduated players think of him. Did they get degrees?

"Knight's coaching also included a firm emphasis on academics. All but four of his four-year players completed their degrees, or nearly 98 percent. Nearly 80 percent of his players graduated; this figure was much higher than the national average of 42 percent for Division 1 schools.[120]"
Wiki

[MU82]

Taking these kinds of snapshots and concluding that a man’s life wasn’t worthwhile because of them is where my disagreement lies.

C'mon, Lenny. Not a single Scooper said Knight's "life wasn't worthwhile." You can make your point - and you do regularly make solid points - without wild exaggerations.

[tower912]

Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man.   Why so angry?

[Uncle Rico]

Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man.   Why so angry?

Reading comprehension is lacking?  Inherent bias?  Itching for another culture war thread?  Sad over a world that no longer exists?

Any of those work

[tower912]

That accomplishes nothing.   Lenny, why so angry?

[Lennys Tap]

Who has said on this message board his life wasn’t worthwhile?  I think you’re grasping for straws here.

I think you’ve been very fair. Some others, less so.

Many have referred to him as “complicated”. Some of his best qualities (principled, loyal, intense, competitive) could also turn into negatives (rigid, uncompromising, grudge holding, even abusive). Others (generosity, for example)we’re just what they were.
He was driven to seek perfection and basically achieved it at an early age - maybe in the long run that made his life and the lives of those around him more difficult.

I guess it depends what you mean by complicated. I think everyone’s life is complicated. It’s called being human. And the greater one’s accomplishments, the larger the target on one’s back. By my definition (and yours, I believe) complicated describes Bob Knight’s life well. But if Pakuni is right and complicated is nothing more than a euphemism for being an a-hole, I think it’s unfair.

[Pakuni]

I think you’ve been very fair. Some others, less so.

Many have referred to him as “complicated”. Some of his best qualities (principled, loyal, intense, competitive) could also turn into negatives (rigid, uncompromising, grudge holding, even abusive). Others (generosity, for example)we’re just what they were.
He was driven to seek perfection and basically achieved it at an early age - maybe in the long run that made his life and the lives of those around him more difficult.

I guess it depends what you mean by complicated. I think everyone’s life is complicated. It’s called being human. And the greater one’s accomplishments, the larger the target on one’s back. By my definition (and yours, I believe) complicated describes Bob Knight’s life well. But if Pakuni is right and complicated is nothing more than a euphemism for being an a-hole, I think it’s unfair.

Lenny,
Bob Knight had a long and thoroughly documented history of bullying and abusive behavior toward his players and others around him. That's not his entire legacy, and nobody here has suggested as much, but it is a part of his legacy.
If you want to rationalize and excuse it as typical human failings, that's OK. Seriously. You're free to view him and his legacy however you choose.
But Bob Knight wasn't some martyr with a target on his back because he had success. He was who he was, good and bad. No need to whitewash his history.

[Lennys Tap]

Actually, with one exception, everyone has been pretty fair and balanced when discussing the totality of the man.   Why so angry?

I smile when you go down that faux “why are you so angry” road. Bemused is more accurate.

If giving equal weight to a snapshot of him yelling at a student and a graduation rate that should embarrass other Hall of Fame coaches is fair and balanced, then yeah.

[tower912]

All have been discussed.   All are part of his legacy.   Why so bemused?

So, my wife, the Hoosier.  Who became a basketball fan because of Steve Alford's perfect hair.   Who banishes me to the small TV in the basement when IU and MU are playing at the same time.    Not mourning him at all.  Understands why there will be a patch on the IU uniforms this season, but wishes they wouldn't because of what he became later in his career.

The man generated a broad spectrum of opinions.   May he rest in peace.

[Uncle Rico]

I smile when you go down that faux “why are you so angry” road. Bemused is more accurate.

If giving equal weight to a snapshot of him yelling at a student and a graduation rate that should embarrass other Hall of Fame coaches is fair and balanced, then yeah.

He didn’t just yell at a student.  He grabbed a student.  He choked a player.  That is a fair and balanced snapshot in his obit along with the graduation rates and wins w