Bobby Knight

[The Lens]

Just because Al defended Bobby and was friends with him gives Knight’s boorish behavior a pass

For context...Al wrote a glowing foreword to John Feinstein's A Season on the Brink.

As for me...I would have fired Knight after the Connie Chung episode. That was indefensible.

Neil Reed + 'pulling a Dabo' on a student in a hallway are actions that seemingly every coach has tucked away in their past.  Knight's action came to the forefront bc he wore his emotions on his sleeve.  Again the Connie Chung stuff is terrible and deserves losing everything, after that I think it's funny that people cite him yelling at a 20 year old man who called him Knight as big evidence of boorish behavior. 

[Uncle Rico]

For context...Al wrote a glowing foreword to John Feinstein's A Season on the Brink.

As for me...I would have fired Knight after the Connie Chung episode. That was indefensible.

Neil Reed + 'pulling a Dabo' on a student in a hallway are actions that seemingly every coach has tucked away in their past.  Knight's action came to the forefront bc he wore his emotions on his sleeve.  Again the Connie Chung stuff is terrible and deserves losing everything, after that I think it's funny that people cite him yelling at a 20 year old man who called him Knight as big evidence of boorish behavior.

Wasn’t the Connie Chung thing a matter of using a wrong analogy?  I think he realized when he said it, that was a terribly stupid example of what he was trying to say?  I could be remembering that wrong.  Of course, not sure why you think of that analogy

[dgies9156]

Brother and Sister Scoopers:

He was a basketball coach, for heaven's sake. He wasn't a religious or political leader. He wasn't someone who demanded your adoration. Nor was he perfect. No one is!!!!

Look, he did some really dumb things. But when Al died, nobody brought up the fist fight he had with Dave Delsman. Or the near altercation he had with Bernard Toone in 1977 (though it was brought up when BT died). Instead, they focused on Al as a personality and what he meant to the people around him.

I'd really be curious what his graduated players think of him. Did they get degrees? I'm kinda betting they did. Do the guys that did four years respect him?

That would be an interesting story, but it would require the kind of work that most reporters are loathe to put in. And, it might break the ogre narrative about Knight. Which would ruin the narrative most reporters have for Coach Knight. It's just easier to define a man by chair tossing and a choke-hold.

[The Lens]

Wasn’t the Connie Chung thing a matter of using a wrong analogy?  I think he realized when he said it, that was a terribly stupid example of what he was trying to say?  I could be remembering that wrong.  Of course, not sure why you think of that analogy

This is a fireable offense.  It's terrible:

NBC's Connie Chung interviewed Knight in 1988 for a piece about handling stress. At one point, Knight said: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it."

He continued: "That's just an old term that you're going to use. The plane's going down, so you have no control over it. I'm not talking about the act of rape. Don't misinterpret me. But what I'm talking about is something happens to you, so you have to handle it − now."

[MU82]

As usual, roQQet, you don't know what you're talking about.

Now go fire another female employee for supporting cancer victims and keep worshipping a 91-felony criminal defendant who bragged about sexually assaulting women.

[Goose]

dgies

You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.


I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.

I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.

[MU82]

Goose:

My parents, whom I admired as well as loved, weren't "perfect," either. But they didn't choke anyone, didn't kick anyone, didn't emotionally abuse anyone, etc.

My best coaches and mentors could be tough, but they never crossed the line. I did have one boss who was a bully and an a-hole, and everybody hated working for him; he got a new position, and it was like the entire department let loose a collective sigh of relief. His replacement could be tough, too, but she was not one who would be cruel for the sake of cruelty as her predecessor was.

dg:

There have been many, many, many comprehensive looks at Knight's time as a coach. John Feinstein wrote a best-selling book after spending an entire season with him and his program, and there have been plenty of others.

From accounts I have seen, most of Knight's players have spoken very highly of him, and felt they benefited from having played for him. Some of those who didn't see eye to eye with him eventually came around, especially after Knight grew fragile in the later years of his life.

I've already mentioned that Knight resented K and Alford but that fences eventually were mended after K and Alford apologized (though they had done nothing wrong).

Larry Bird famously dropped out of Indiana because he was homesick, but  he also didn't respond to Knight, who felt Bird was weak. Years and years later, Knight actually admitted he handled the Bird situation poorly - calling it "one of my biggest mistakes."

Again, Knight did a lot of charitable things, many out of the public eye. He was fiercely loyal to those who were loyal to him. I think I've read that his teams had a high graduation rate. His program didn't cheat. He coached amazing basketball for decades. As I think Wags said, his one Sweet 16 season at Texas Tech was a borderline miracle.

But even though he didn't suddenly become bad at coaching basketball, the game passed him by because 18-year-olds stopped being willing to be treated like dirt just so they could be coached by the great Bobby Knight.

As is the case with most subjects discussed on Scoop, this isn't a black-and-white thing. There is nuance. Saying one wouldn't want one's kid to play for Bobby Knight, as a few have done, isn't the same as calling him evil.

[muhoosier260]

Complicated is euphemistic way of calling a dead person an a-hole.

I don't think he deserves the euphemism treatment. Tell it like it is. Bob Knight was not one to mince words and we all know what he said about his critics. People in general are complicated as we all have our proud and not so proud moments, but Knight's behavior goes way beyond an occasional lack in judgment. Personally I don't care for people like Bob Knight.

Knight was a basketball coach, but minimizing his conduct by defending him as 'just a coach' doesn't give him a pass for the terrible stuff he did, year, after year, after year. He was known for having a clean program, and for graduating his players, and that's great. At what cost though? His mindset was toxic, that's how he chose to lead others and conduct himself his entire life, and that's how I'll remember him. That was the way he knew how to run a program, which is a shame because so much of it was unnecessarily abusive to those around him.

[The Lens]

dgies

You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.


I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.

I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.

Well said.  I introduced the Al piece because he a) had a fondness for Knight (bc unlike us, he knew him) and b) Al had his own warts but as MU fans we only see the seashells and balloons, we over look the cracked sidewalks.  I truely wonder how unique the Neil Reed situation was to a certain generation of teams.

[Uncle Rico]

Well said.  I introduced the Al piece because he a) had a fondness for Knight (bc unlike us, he knew him) and b) Al had his own warts but as MU fans we only see the seashells and balloons, we over look the cracked sidewalks.  I truely wonder how unique the Neil Reed situation was to a certain generation of teams.

Unique?  There’s literally a whole section of his biography dedicated to abusive incidents in his career.  Anyone telling the story of Bobby Knight does a disservice to his legacy without including those stories.  He did those things and could do those things because he won a lot of basketball games because he was a good coach.

And quite frankly, I highly doubt Robert Montgomery Knight could give a flying rip if that’s part of his legacy.

[wadesworld]

You can be a great basketball coach who greatly helps young adults mature and become better basketball players without being mentally and physically abusive.  It wasn't some one off, judging a guy by his single worst act.  It's who he was, from start to finish.

[Goose]

The Lens

That is my gripe. Al had a LOT of warts, but his good outweighed the warts. I can look at the big picture of Al because I am older, know more and understand how the parts made up the whole with Al. I have zero interest in discussing Al's warts but he had quite a few.

I have told my kids many times that you can judge a man how his peers reflect on his life and react to their death. My guess, there are far more people on the pro Bobby side of the aisle. I know that for some people you only need one person the negative side of the aisle.

[Lennys Tap]

dgies

You are 100% correct. That said, you will never change the minds of people that think differently on the topic.


I look at Bobby, or others, similar to how I judge people around me. My parents would be both over 100 if still alive and I thought they are two of the best people I have ever met, actually the best, but they had moments in life that were not perfect. There actions spoke loudly to me and often contradicted words that were spoken. I have no idea what all of their flaws were, but I know they were not saints. I also know they were people that were respected and loved.

I am always surprised by people that judge others over their flaws and make major judgements. It makes think those people never make mistakes or are delusional.

Goose

People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - particularly dead people they don’t know. They add up/interpret the bad stuff they’ve heard/read and the good stuff they’ve heard/read, add some extraneous or arbitrary stuff (like the dead guy’s and their own politics) and - Voila! They’ve figured out the worth of a life.

[Pakuni]

Goose

People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others - particularly dead people they don’t know. They add up/interpret the bad stuff they’ve heard/read and the good stuff they’ve heard/read, add some extraneous or arbitrary stuff (like the dead guy’s and their own politics) and - Voila! They’ve figured out the worth of a life.

This post is not at all judgemental.

[Goose]

Lenny

It always seems to be the same cast of characters on here. I wonder if any of them include a bias against Bobby because of his Trump support.

[Pakuni]

Lenny

It always seems to be the same cast of characters on here. I wonder if any of them include a bias against Bobby because of his Trump support.

Stop judging people, Goose.

[Uncle Rico]

Guys-

The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip.  It’s facts and part of his life and legacy.  He was an abusive a-hole.

He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people.  That’s awesome and important in telling his story.

All of these things are his legacy.  If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you.  He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player.  Those are the facts. 

[Lennys Tap]

This post is not at all judgemental.

I didn’t know you were dead - but since you are, I apologize.

[Pakuni]

I didn’t know you were dead - but since you are, I apologize.

When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.

[Lennys Tap]

Guys-

The bad stuff about Bobby Knight isn’t second-hand gossip.  It’s facts and part of his life and legacy.  He was an abusive a-hole.

He was also a great basketball coach who has a cavalcade of players and coaches who loved him like family and credit him with being a positive influence in their lives and making them better people.  That’s awesome and important in telling his story.

All of these things are his legacy.  If you’re talking about Bobby Knight and aren’t talking about the abuse, I don’t know what to tell you.  He lost the Indiana job because he couldn’t keep his hands off a freaking student who wasn’t even a player.  Those are the facts.

Rico
I have nothing against a discussion of facts about any dead guy that are on the record. He choked a player (bad), he yelled at a student (bad), he had a temper (bad). Whether those two incidents, the temper, and other failings mean he should have “Here lies an abusive a-hole” engraved on his tombstone is a judgement that very few of (for example) his ex players would share. That won’t stop a lot of folks who never knew him, but I don’t think they’re qualified to make that judgement

[Uncle Rico]

Rico
I have nothing against a discussion of facts about any dead guy that are on the record. He choked a player (bad), he yelled at a student (bad), he had a temper (bad). Whether those two incidents, the temper, and other failings mean he should have “Here lies an abusive a-hole” engraved on his tombstone is a judgement that very few of (for example) his ex players would share. That won’t stop a lot of folks who never knew him, but I don’t think they’re qualified to make that judgement

Other than Tower saying he wouldn’t send his kids to play for him and Pak calling him an a-hole, which he was and I’m willing to bet Bobby Knight would call himself an a-hole, what judgements have been passed here?  And Tower praised his coaching!

Muhoosier260 has been the most aggressive in severly croticizing him.  One person. 

[wadesworld]

Had no idea Bob Knight supported Donald Trump.  I don't really walk around wondering, researching, or trying to determine peoples' political beliefs.  And I don't really find people to be good or bad people based on their political views.  I know plenty of great people who lean right, and plenty of people who I don't care for at all that lean left.

It could be Barack Obama himself and if it comes out that he choked his staffers, verbally abused his staffers, etc. and he couldn't prevent himself from doing those things even when he's on the hot seat because of previous similar behavior, I'd think he was an a-hole no matter how many people who worked closely with him thought incredibly highly of him.

[Pakuni]

Other than Tower saying he wouldn’t send his kids to play for him and Pak calling him an a-hole, which he was and I’m willing to bet Bobby Knight would call himself an a-hole, what judgements have been passed here?  And Tower praised his coaching!

Muhoosier260 has been the most aggressive in severly croticizing him.  One person.

Pretty sure I didn't call him an a-hole, fwiw.

[WhiteTrash]

When you wrote "People love nothing better than to sit in judgement of others .." you were referring to dead people?
Huh.

In fairness, he did not write "Some people" and I assume he is a person.

[tower912]

Was also unaware Knight supported Trump.    As to my kid playing for Knight, my kid had a verbally abusive travel baseball coach.   Two kids quit the team with anxiety issues.   Mine swore to never play travel baseball again.  Talked him out of quitting the game completely and he has had two successful high school seasons.   I found out the coach was kicked out of the travel organization after my son walked away because this behavior was a habit.
      My son knows he does not respond to coaching by verbal abuse.   Ergo, I would not let him play for coach Knight.   Nor would he want to.

But, I have never said and never will say Knight couldn't coach.