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Author Topic: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”  (Read 10848 times)

real chili 83

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2023, 10:39:10 AM »
Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.

The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.

VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did. 
 * Was it overblown?
 * Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
 * Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
 * Did they care?
 * Should they care?
 * Did they look the other way?
 * Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
 * Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?


brewcity77

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2023, 10:51:18 AM »
No idea about the Va Tech or TAMU sides, but my guess is they cared more about the end result winning than how they get there.
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Viper

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2023, 10:52:57 AM »
Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.

The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.

VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did. 
 * Was it overblown?
 * Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
 * Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
 * Did they care?
 * Should they care?
 * Did they look the other way?
 * Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
 * Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?
I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.

zcg2013

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2023, 10:55:14 AM »
Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.

The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.

VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did. 
 * Was it overblown?
 * Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
 * Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
 * Did they care?
 * Should they care?
 * Did they look the other way?
 * Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
 * Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?

I mean look at Chris Beard and Ole Miss. Slick Rick and Louisville. There are other college football coaches, professional athletes, the list goes on and on. People will turn a blind eye for results.

Coleman

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2023, 11:02:36 AM »
I think there is a higher tolerance for some of this stuff at the big state schools. Stuff that might fly at Alabama or Texas Tech may not fly at MU or Duke. I don't really know why this is the case.

Of course St John's just hired Rick Pitino, so what do I know....


The bottom line is each school has a different standard. One might be fine if you don't get an NCAA violation/sanctions and don't get caught breaking the law. Others hold a higher standard.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2023, 11:04:27 AM by Coleman »

BrewCity83

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2023, 11:05:25 AM »
You guys are right about VT and TAMU probably caring more about results than anything else.  But I'm all for second chances.  If I were looking at hiring a Buzz Williams after what went down at MU, I'm making it abundantly clear that none of those shenanigans would be tolerated, and I would make sure it's all spelled out in his contract what the consequences are.  And they would be severe.   
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withoutbias

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2023, 11:13:09 AM »
I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.

It's not conjecture.  It's known, it's publicized, you just don't want to believe it, which is fine.  Ignorance is bliss seems to be the residing theme at Scoop.

How anyone would be surprised that other organizations would hire a coach with a bad past is wild to me.  Look at Chris Beard.  But hey, maybe you believe it's all conjecture and nothing happened there.

The Rockets just hired Ime Udoko.  But hey, I'm sure it was all fake news and he's a great guy that did nothing wrong, people just fell for the conjecture and hearsay.

Highly successful people that make people millions and billions of dollars get second and third chances when they do bad things.  That's the least surprising thing ever.

MUDPT

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2023, 11:21:31 AM »
Lot of stuff about Buzz being a bad dude in this thread....how he dealt with the sexual assault investigation.

The NCAA is really a small community....not many secrets with the kind of stuff MU went through.

VT and TAMU must have, or at least should have known about the reprehensible stuff that Buzz allegedly did. 
 * Was it overblown?
 * Was the truth somewhere in the middle?
 * Did VT and TAMU know the full extent?
 * Did they care?
 * Should they care?
 * Did they look the other way?
 * Was Buzz's behavior not that egregious?
 * Did Buzz just get some of his slime on P.J Fleck by association?

Didn’t Paint Touches have an article after he left on how they met reporters who told them Buzz wanted the Oklahoma? job in 2012, but they were scared off by the assault incident.

brewcity77

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2023, 11:40:49 AM »
I think you hit on it, RC83. Is Buzz a bad dude? Did VT and TAMU know details of this situation, good or bad?
The crowd that goes with ‘I heard stories’…or, ‘he supposedly did this or did that’…the conjecture crowd. Ridiculous.

It's reported. It's sourced. Broeker is quoted. It's not conjecture.
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real chili 83

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2023, 12:31:25 PM »
It's reported. It's sourced. Broeker is quoted. It's not conjecture.

Life is rarely a set of binary choices, but many like to think so. 

After some time goes by new data/new behavior is observed.

In the "real world", anyone a fan of second chance hiring?  That can be some of your best hiring...ever.

brewcity77

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2023, 12:43:06 PM »
Life is rarely a set of binary choices, but many like to think so. 

After some time goes by new data/new behavior is observed.

In the "real world", anyone a fan of second chance hiring?  That can be some of your best hiring...ever.

That's not the point. No one is saying Buzz couldn't run a program better than he did here. But what happened here isn't conjecture or "I heard stories" like Viper alleged. It's reported & documented.

I have no problem with people supporting Buzz getting a second chance. But what happened at Marquette happened. Buzz walked because our administration preferred to let him leave than let him rehab his actions here. When Buzz said "I'll stay as long as they'll have me" he was being honest and that's exactly what happened. And MU was not in the wrong to let him go.
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JWags85

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2023, 12:47:22 PM »
I think there is an interesting duality to Buzz.  He's nowhere as great or as humble as he portrayed himself to be, but he's also not an absolute scumbag POS that some of his actions have shown.  I think he's incredibly self-centered and self serving, but that doesn't preclude someone from doing good or great things.  Some incredibly charitable or philanthropic people have done great things in the world...concurrent with it being of their best benefit, that doesn't mean that work wasn't meaningful and impactful.  I know of many people tangentially related to the program who have very good experiences or things to say about Buzz when he was here.  I'm sure tons of parents involved in Buzz's Bunch would rave about him.  Did BB serve as a PR vehicle for him?  Sure.  But that doesn't mean that it wasn't great work that made some people very happy.

The Buzz years were super fun, I enjoyed the program and the team so damn much when he was here, I don't miss him now and couldn't be happier with Shaka and the program's future under him.  That's good enough for me and I don't feel the need to further audit his time here or his legacy any further than that.

I wonder how many times he mysteriously appeared before a judge with no court records like Jimmy supposedly did.

real chili 83

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2023, 01:10:06 PM »
That's not the point. No one is saying Buzz couldn't run a program better than he did here. But what happened here isn't conjecture or "I heard stories" like Viper alleged. It's reported & documented.

I have no problem with people supporting Buzz getting a second chance. But what happened at Marquette happened. Buzz walked because our administration preferred to let him leave than let him rehab his actions here. When Buzz said "I'll stay as long as they'll have me" he was being honest and that's exactly what happened. And MU was not in the wrong to let him go.

Not arguing that.  You're probably right...that stuff took place. 

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2023, 01:22:00 PM »
What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Lens

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2023, 01:50:40 PM »
What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.

Same thing happens with Al & Rick?  What do they do?  Probably closer to Buzz.

Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.
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Coleman

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2023, 02:14:19 PM »


I wonder how many times he mysteriously appeared before a judge with no court records like Jimmy supposedly did.

Huh?

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2023, 02:23:55 PM »
What is being said here is undoubtedly true. I have even heard the basic facts from someone who I would describe as a "Buzz ally." He improperly inserted himself into a Title IX case. Now did he do so because of a coordinated effort to discredit the alleged victim and protect his player? Or was it because he was either improperly trained or just wanted to get more information? Maybe a little of both? That to me is where the rub is here.

Again, the issue was that Marquette University wasn't following Title IX in regard to Obama sexual assaults order.  From the Administration to the Athletic Department to the Dean of Students to MU Police to Gerry Boyle to the basketball coach.  They were following the official university (flawed) policy.   

The players went through the process (peer review) and were handed down suspensions. MU Police did not alert MPD.

Every article and this history makes it sound like it was all on Buzz (not to excuse him). The university handled this the same way as they would have clergy abuse in those days (and that caught up with Fr. Wild).  It was a horrible decision then and the school dearly paid for it.  Buzz wasn't sued.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2023, 02:27:53 PM »
Again, the issue was that Marquette University wasn't following Title IX in regard to Obama sexual assaults order.  From the Administration to the Athletic Department to the Dean of Students to MU Police to Gerry Boyle to the basketball coach.  They were following the official university (flawed) policy.   

The players went through the process (peer review) and were handed down suspensions. MU Police did not alert MPD.

Every article and this history makes it sound like it was all on Buzz (not to excuse him). The university handled this the same way as they would have clergy abuse in those days (and that caught up with Fr. Wild).  It was a horrible decision then and the school dearly paid for it.  Buzz wasn't sued.


I understand that they weren't following guidelines. But I have worked in higher education for 30 years, and at no point during my career has "encouraging contact with the alleged victim" been O.K.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2023, 02:40:27 PM »

I understand that they weren't following guidelines. But I have worked in higher education for 30 years, and at no point during my career has "encouraging contact with the alleged victim" been O.K.

And, I again never said it was. It's not okay in business either.

My point is this thread (and in media coverage) is very one-sided and puts the entirety of the blame on just one person ("Buzz didn't follow Title IX"). The university effed this up royally. That part continues to get swept under the rug. It was a major fail.

Viper

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2023, 02:46:02 PM »
Same thing happens with Al & Rick?  What do they do?  Probably closer to Buzz.

Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.
yup yup

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2023, 02:48:00 PM »
Same thing happens with Al & Rick?  What do they do?  Probably closer to Buzz.

Hank is 100% calling his boss and staying out of it.

Different time, different responsibilities.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Dickthedribbler

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2023, 03:09:38 PM »
If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.

On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.

I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him,  but I also have no axe to grind, either.

lawdog77

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2023, 03:19:24 PM »
If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.

On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.

I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him,  but I also have no axe to grind, either.

The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2023, 03:20:05 PM »
If Buzz called his team together and outright directed them to lie or gave them a script that all were to adhere to regarding what happened, then I'd be blasting him worse than some of you guys.

On the other hand, if he gathered the team and told them to STFU until the lawyers showed up, and then to only answer the questions posed to them, I'd congratulate him for standing up for his players the way a good father would stand up for a son who found himself in a similar jam.

I suspect what probably happened was somewhere in the middle, and since I wasn't present, I'm not making any judgments. I don't love Buzz enough to go to the wall for him,  but I also have no axe to grind, either.


The Chicago Tribune article backs us what people are saying...if you still chose not be believe because you weren't physically there that's of course your right but is completely laughable.

Quote from the article:

"In addition to mistakes by campus security, Marquette administrators have acknowledged that the athletic department reacted inappropriately to the initial accusation.

The school has publicly criticized an Oct. 31 meeting between coaches and athletes, shortly after the first woman made her allegations. Prosecutors said they had no evidence that coaches intentionally interfered with the investigation but said the gathering offered an opportunity for the athletes to compare stories before detectives had a chance to question them independently.

One athlete sent a text message to the woman during the meeting, asking if she had made a report to security, authorities have said. Another called her with similar questions, according to the police report.

Mike Broeker, acting athletic director, told the Tribune that coaches met with players after campus security notified the athletic department of the woman's report. Calling it a "severe error in judgment," he said the department is changing how it responds when athletes are in trouble."
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RJax55

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Re: Buzz….intriguing or just more “quirky”
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2023, 03:20:29 PM »
And, I again never said it was. It's not okay in business either.

My point is this thread (and in media coverage) is very one-sided and puts the entirety of the blame on just one person ("Buzz didn't follow Title IX"). The university effed this up royally. That part continues to get swept under the rug. It was a major fail.

True. And, it cost a number of them their jobs.

 

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