New evidence of COVID's origins

[Pakuni]

For three years now, the debate over the origins of the coronavirus pandemic has ping-ponged between two big ideas: that SARS-CoV-2 spilled into human populations directly from a wild-animal source, and that the pathogen leaked from a lab. Through a swirl of data obfuscation by Chinese authorities and politicalization within the United States, and rampant speculation from all corners of the world, many scientists have stood by the notion that this outbreak—like most others—had purely natural roots. But that hypothesis has been missing a key piece of proof: genetic evidence from the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market in Wuhan, China, showing that the virus had infected creatures for sale there.

PThis week, an international team of virologists, genomicists, and evolutionary biologists may have finally found crucial data to help fill that knowledge gap. A new analysis of genetic sequences collected from the market shows that raccoon dogs being illegally sold at the venue could have been carrying and possibly shedding the virus at the end of 2019. It’s some of the strongest support yet, experts told me, that the pandemic began when SARS-CoV-2 hopped from animals into humans, rather than in an accident among scientists experimenting with viruses.




https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2023/03/covid-origins-research-raccoon-dogs-wuhan-market-lab-leak/673390/

[tower912]

I just finished reading that and was pondering posting it. 

This is several data points.  It is not a smoking gun.   The smoking gun will likely not be found.   

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I saw this story this morning also.

I think the best part is "racoon dogs" which in of itself sounds like a mutation.

[mu_hilltopper]

I've tried to care.   If we ever found the 100% truth, it wouldn't change anything. 

The virus began in China, either through negligence, malfeasance, or the galactic stupidity of allowing wet markets.   

The one unifying theme is that China has brought catastrophic misery upon the world.

[Skatastrophy]

I've tried to care.   If we ever found the 100% truth, it wouldn't change anything. 

The virus began in China, either through negligence, malfeasance, or the galactic stupidity of allowing wet markets.   

The one unifying theme is that China has brought catastrophic misery upon the world.

I don't blame them for wet markets. I blame them for hiding the impact of the infection once it jumped to humans. Unconscionable.

Wet markets can be found globally. Gain of function research is extremely valuable. Keeping mum about people dying is hard for me to understand when it comes to communicating with other gov't/scientific organizations. Fine, don't panic the people, but China hid everything from us and that was wholly under their control no matter where the virus jumped to humans first.

[Uncle Rico]

I've tried to care.   If we ever found the 100% truth, it wouldn't change anything. 

The virus began in China, either through negligence, malfeasance, or the galactic stupidity of allowing wet markets.   

The one unifying theme is that China has brought catastrophic misery upon the world.

Yup

[tower912]

I've tried to care.   If we ever found the 100% truth, it wouldn't change anything. 

The virus began in China, either through negligence, malfeasance, or the galactic stupidity of allowing wet markets.   

The one unifying theme is that China has brought catastrophic misery upon the world.

I land in this neighborhood.

[Hards Alumni]

I've tried to care.   If we ever found the 100% truth, it wouldn't change anything. 

The virus began in China, either through negligence, malfeasance, or the galactic stupidity of allowing wet markets.   

The one unifying theme is that China has brought catastrophic misery upon the world.

YEP

[Lennys Tap]

62% of Americans now believe the Covid 19 virus was created in and leaked from a lab

33% believe it came from nature.

54% think the Biden administration is covering up on the nature of its origins

41% believe they’re not.

Common sense.

[rocky_warrior]

43% of Americans trust fox news.

[Hards Alumni]

62% of Americans now believe the Covid 19 virus was created in and leaked from a lab

33% believe it came from nature.

54% think the Biden administration is covering up on the nature of its origins

41% believe they’re not.

Common sense.

100% of people shouldn't care.

[Uncle Rico]

100% of people shouldn't care.

Tracing it to its origin has scientific merit.

[Hards Alumni]

Tracing it to its origin has scientific merit.

Sorry, 99.5% of people shouldn't care.

The only reason people care is so they can play the "told you so" game.

[Uncle Rico]

Sorry, 99.5% of people shouldn't care.

The only reason people care is so they can play the "told you so" game.

This is correct, too.  We’re still not 100% sure where the Spanish Flu began other than knowing it didn’t start in Spain.  We’re pretty sure it started in the United States, though.  One thing we know for certain, regardless of where it began, initial reaction to its emergence was terribly handled

[4everwarriors]

The truth will set you free. Get Fr. Fauci in a smoke filled room until he squeals, aina?

[Uncle Rico]

The truth will set you free. Get Fr. Fauci in a smoke filled room until he squeals, aina?

Along with the White House of the time.  Same thing

[rocky_warrior]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that it came from aliens. 

[Uncle Rico]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that it came from aliens.

Not Jewish space lasers?

[rocky_warrior]

Not Jewish space lasers?

They're purely for "sanitization"

[Uncle Rico]

They're purely for "sanitization"

Didn’t do a very good job

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that it came from aliens.

I thought it was woke CRT that caused it?

[tower912]

It is well established that Lenny and I have diametrically different opinions about what is and isn't common sense.    This is just another example.  Or, if we agreed, I would rethink my position.

[real chili 83]

I mean, it's pretty obvious that it came from aliens.

Space Aliens, or the other kind of aliens?

[tower912]

The Alien wedge?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

81 million Biden voters still wear masks when they are outside alone or in their car alone.

[forgetful]

62% of Americans now believe the Covid 19 virus was created in and leaked from a lab

33% believe it came from nature.

54% think the Biden administration is covering up on the nature of its origins

41% believe they’re not.

Common sense.

It is common knowledge that the average person is completely inept when it comes to basic science, so a poll of the average populations is meaningless when it comes to something like this.

[Lennys Tap]

It is common knowledge that the average person is completely inept when it comes to basic science, so a poll of the average populations is meaningless when it comes to something like this.

It is common knowledge that the average person is completely inept when it comes to basic knowledge about politics, history, mathematics, English and any other discipline known to man. So what? This isn’t as much about science as it is spotting a self serving coverup when it’s staring you in the face. And when it comes to seeing (and smelling) a rat that’s right in front of you, average people do pretty well - and a 2-1 margin makes it a landslide.

[forgetful]

It is common knowledge that the average person is completely inept when it comes to basic knowledge about politics, history, mathematics, English and any other discipline known to man. So what? This isn’t as much about science as it is spotting a self serving coverup when it’s staring you in the face. And when it comes to seeing (and smelling) a rat that’s right in front of you, average people do pretty well - and a 2-1 margin makes it a landslide.

Congrats on proving that the average person knows nothing about science.

[Hards Alumni]

It is common knowledge that the average person is completely inept when it comes to basic knowledge about politics, history, mathematics, English and any other discipline known to man. So what? This isn’t as much about science as it is spotting a self serving coverup when it’s staring you in the face. And when it comes to seeing (and smelling) a rat that’s right in front of you, average people do pretty well - and a 2-1 margin makes it a landslide.

Oh the irony.

[mu_hilltopper]

39% of Americans believe in evolution
36% believe global warming is caused by humans
34% believe in ghosts
37% can't name a single item in the Bill of Rights
74% can't name the 3 branches of government
2% believe the earth is flat
7% believe chocolate milk comes from brown cows
14% believe humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time

[Uncle Rico]

39% of Americans believe in evolution
36% believe global warming is caused by humans
34% believe in ghosts
37% can't name a single item in the Bill of Rights
74% can't name the 3 branches of government
2% believe the earth is flat
7% believe chocolate milk comes from brown cows
14% believe humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time

Americans are for the most part, a stupid people

[Pakuni]

And when it comes to seeing (and smelling) a rat that’s right in front of you, average people do pretty well - and a 2-1 margin makes it a landslide.

Speaking of rats, perhaps this explains the Supreme Court's record-low approval ratings.

[Lennys Tap]

Speaking of rats, perhaps this explains the Supreme Court's record-low approval ratings.

Theirs and Joe’s - yep.

[Hards Alumni]

Theirs and Joe’s - yep.

This just in, 38% isn't a record low for presidents, dumbass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

[Skatastrophy]

This just in, 38% isn't a record low for presidents, dumbass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

A lot of presidents hit the 20s, that's wild

[Pakuni]

This just in, 38% isn't a record low for presidents, dumbass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

Only 10 of the previous 10 presidents have had approval ratings as low or lower than Biden.

[JWags85]

Only 10 of the previous 10 presidents have had approval ratings as low or lower than Biden.

That data in totality still isn't a great look for Biden.  Its basically, Hey at least its not Trump!

[Uncle Rico]

This just in, 38% isn't a record low for presidents, dumbass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

Say this for the Supreme Court, they’ve motivated Gen Z to vote

[Pakuni]

That data in totality still isn't a great look for Biden.  Its basically, Hey at least its not Trump!

Or Bush I or Bush II or Clinton or Reagan or Carter or Ford or Nixon or LBJ ... all of whom had lower approval ratings than what Biden has seen so far.
I'd suggest it's neither a good or bad look. It's standard.

[Lennys Tap]

Or Bush I or Bush II or Clinton or Reagan or Carter or Ford or Nixon or LBJ ... all of whom had lower approval ratings than what Biden has seen so far.
I'd suggest it's neither a good or bad look. It's standard.

Standard? LOL. All presidents have ups and downs, looking at their lowest point is dishonest. Per dumbass Hard’s link, here are the average approval numbers for the last 10:
GHW Bush 60.9
LBJ.           55.1
Clinton       55.1
Reagan       52.8
W Bush       49.4
Nixon          49.1
Obama        47.9
Ford            47.2
Carter          45.5
Trump          40

Biden presently has an incomplete as his term isn’t complete but is on pace to finish ahead of only Trump - so right near the bottom. Want to bet he doesn’t finish any higher than he currently sits? How much?

[Uncle Rico]

Standard? LOL. All presidents have ups and downs, looking at their lowest point is dishonest. Per dumbass Hard’s link, here are the average approval numbers for the last 10:
GHW Bush 60.9
LBJ.           55.1
Clinton       55.1
Reagan       52.8
W Bush       49.4
Nixon          49.1
Obama        47.9
Ford            47.2
Carter          45.5
Trump          40

Biden presently has an incomplete as his term isn’t complete but is on pace to finish ahead of only Trump - so right near the bottom. Want to bet he doesn’t finish any higher than he currently sits? How much?

49% of Americans had approval ratings for Nixon.  Man, this country has a lot of dumb people living in it

[Skatastrophy]

That data in totality still isn't a great look for Biden.  Its basically, Hey at least its not Trump!

That's why everyone voted for the guy. Because the other guy is abominable.

[Pakuni]

Standard? LOL. All presidents have ups and downs, looking at their lowest point is dishonest.   

Lenny: "I want to talk about Biden's 'record-low' approval rating."
Also Lenny: "Looking at their lowest point is dishonest."

Well done, sir.

[JWags85]

That's why everyone voted for the guy. Because the other guy is abominable.

Yea, I mean it was a no brainer and why I voted for him.  But being the lesser of two evils isn’t a good endorsement for a President and his administration’s success IMO.

[MU82]

The 538 site does a composite of all the approval rating polls.

807 days into his presidency, Biden's approval rating is 42.8%. Since ratings became a thing during the Truman Administration, only two presidents had a lower approval rating at the 807-day mark: Trump at 42.1% and Reagan at 41.1%.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/

[wadesworld]

Lenny: "I want to talk about Biden's 'record-low' approval rating."
Also Lenny: "Looking at their lowest point is dishonest."

Well done, sir.

Lol.

[Hards Alumni]

Standard? LOL. All presidents have ups and downs, looking at their lowest point is dishonest. Per dumbass Hard’s link, here are the average approval numbers for the last 10:
GHW Bush 60.9
LBJ.           55.1
Clinton       55.1
Reagan       52.8
W Bush       49.4
Nixon          49.1
Obama        47.9
Ford            47.2
Carter          45.5
Trump          40

Biden presently has an incomplete as his term isn’t complete but is on pace to finish ahead of only Trump - so right near the bottom. Want to bet he doesn’t finish any higher than he currently sits? How much?

Life comes at you fast, Lenny.  Just correcting your stupid assertion that Biden had low poll numbers.

Pick your pants up from around your ankles and move on with your life.

[Hards Alumni]

Yea, I mean it was a no brainer and why I voted for him.  But being the lesser of two evils isn’t a good endorsement for a President and his administration’s success IMO.

Yeah, but that's the American way, man.

Our system is gross, and we vote for the less gross one.  Usually.

[jesmu84]

Did any of you here care about the Ebola leak in 2014?

[JWags85]

Yeah, but that's the American way, man.

Our system is gross, and we vote for the less gross one.  Usually.

Yea, no disagreement from me here.  Said the same general thing to my father yesterday when talking about R vs D on some stuff.  It was more just a commentary on the number of people I see online or hear in person who respond to any criticism of the Biden Admin with "yea, but Trump did/said/is...".

Did any of you here care about the Ebola leak in 2014?

I know many people who did, especially those who travel frequently abroad for both work or leisure.  But I don't know why some snarky comparison to an outbreak that infected less than 30,000 people primarily in an area slightly larger than New England is remotely comparable to discussions or concerns over a the largest pandemic in a century that infected 22,000X as many people

[MUBurrow]

It sucks that nothing can ever be discussed like adults, because both the zoonotic spillover and lab leak explanations are based on meaningful combinations of pretty decent science, circumstantial evidence, and messed up incentives.  The legitimate viability of both explanations expose a ton of improvements that need to be made to prevent something like this from happening.  But we're collectively just gonna crap in our hands and throw it at each other and not fix anything.

[Uncle Rico]

It sucks that nothing can ever be discussed like adults, because both the zoonotic spillover and lab leak explanations are based on meaningful combinations of pretty decent science, circumstantial evidence, and messed up incentives.  The legitimate viability of both explanations expose a ton of improvements that need to be made to prevent something like this from happening.  But we're collectively just gonna crap in our hands and throw it at each other and not fix anything.

Precisely.  Blame versus solution.  Blame versus mitigation.

If it came from a lab, what’s the solution to avoid it in the future or mitigate it?  The people that want it to have come from a lab don’t actually care about those things or really want to spend money to fix those things.

The federal government spent a lot of money and time preparing for the scenario that was presented in 2020.  It was discarded just a few years before by the administration of the time.  Where did the virus come from?  Very important in scientific terms and discovery.  Why did it spiral out of control in our country?  That’s the question the origin fanatics don’t want asked

[jesmu84]

Yea, no disagreement from me here.  Said the same general thing to my father yesterday when talking about R vs D on some stuff.  It was more just a commentary on the number of people I see online or hear in person who respond to any criticism of the Biden Admin with "yea, but Trump did/said/is...".

I know many people who did, especially those who travel frequently abroad for both work or leisure.  But I don't know why some snarky comparison to an outbreak that infected less than 30,000 people primarily in an area slightly larger than New England is remotely comparable to discussions or concerns over a the largest pandemic in a century that infected 22,000X as many people

Because it's funny that the origin of the virus only matters now, to some.

Lab leaks should matter always because, if they exist, it demonstrates that we need to improve policy/Procedures/protocols to reduce the possibility.

Folks freaking out over this possibility today are only likely doing it for political reasons.

Edit:Burrow and Rico have additional explanation for the basis of my question

[Uncle Rico]

To amend my previous post, the Spanish Flu pandemic was also a colossal failure by the administration of that time who was more concerned about getting to war

[Hards Alumni]

It sucks that nothing can ever be discussed like adults, because both the zoonotic spillover and lab leak explanations are based on meaningful combinations of pretty decent science, circumstantial evidence, and messed up incentives.  The legitimate viability of both explanations expose a ton of improvements that need to be made to prevent something like this from happening.  But we're collectively just gonna crap in our hands and throw it at each other and not fix anything.

Actually, I disagree.  If this was a lab leak, I can promise you that China fixed the problem in protocol the moment they realized it.  If it was zoonotic, not much can really be done.  We can blame the wet market, but they're not going away, and that won't stop all zoonotic spread of diseases to humans.  We see strains of bird flu, swine flu, et al. jump to humans regularly and there isn't much we can do about it as long as we live around the animals we keep for food.

[MU82]

Effen wackadoodle ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/15/robert-kennedy-jr-covid-conspiracy/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. advanced a dangerous conspiracy theory this week that the coronavirus could have been a bioweapon “deliberately targeted” to spare Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese people while disproportionately attacking White and Black people, according to a video of the remarks published Saturday by the New York Post.

“There is an argument that it is ethnically targeted. Covid-19 attacks certain races disproportionately,” Kennedy said during a dinner on New York’s Upper East Side on Tuesday evening. “Covid-19 is targeted to attack Caucasians and Black people. The people who are most immune are Ashkenazi Jews and Chinese.”

[jesmu84]

RFK's response:

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1680227322509635595?t=t3PKUaoJrxPuPS-t_kqzAw&s=19

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

RFK's response:

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1680227322509635595?t=t3PKUaoJrxPuPS-t_kqzAw&s=19

Ah…

[MU82]

Yeah ... that clears things up about his wack-a-doodle-ness.

[Jay Bee]

…another one of yours…

[JWags85]

The thing that is problematic and challenging about RFKJ is that he sounds smart and informed enough to make his wacky viewpoints seem reasonable (to gullible or people susceptible to calls to authority), unlike demon seed or RFID chip implantation.

The thing that REALLY pisses me off about him is that he's yet another outside of the traditional blue/red party line mold, but instead of being a catalyst for change or disruption, he's a crazy person easily written off by his lunacy.

[jesmu84]

The thing that is problematic and challenging about RFKJ is that he sounds smart and informed enough to make his wacky viewpoints seem reasonable (to gullible or people susceptible to calls to authority), unlike demon seed or RFID chip implantation.

The thing that REALLY pisses me off about him is that he's yet another outside of the traditional blue/red party line mold, but instead of being a catalyst for change or disruption, he's a crazy person easily written off by his lunacy.

This is well said, wags

[tower912]

The more he talks, the more he reveals and the sooner sane people will put him in the rearview.

David Duke ran as a Democrat.   Every now and then you get a crazy. 

[Uncle Rico]

The more he talks, the more he reveals and the sooner sane people will put him in the rearview.

David Duke ran as a Democrat.   Every now and then you get a crazy.

He has a following because people are stupid.  Same as Trump or Paul Gosar.  People are stupid

[tower912]

Yes.

[4everwarriors]

Putin, says the Nibbler, is losing the war in Iraq. Oh, and God save the Queen. Yeah, people are stupid, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Putin, says the Nibbler, is losing the war in Iraq. Oh, and God save the Queen. Yeah, people are stupid, hey?

Yup, republicans are going to nominate a thrice-indicted grifter for a third straight time because pudding fingers is busy fighting culture wars, hey?

[4everwarriors]

Good chance neither da Buffoon nor Trump will be their party's nominee, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Good chance neither da Buffoon nor Trump will be their party's nominee, hey?

I’ll take that action

[Hards Alumni]

The thing that is problematic and challenging about RFKJ is that he sounds smart and informed enough to make his wacky viewpoints seem reasonable (to gullible or people susceptible to calls to authority), unlike demon seed or RFID chip implantation.

The thing that REALLY pisses me off about him is that he's yet another outside of the traditional blue/red party line mold, but instead of being a catalyst for change or disruption, he's a crazy person easily written off by his lunacy.

If his last name wasn't Kennedy, he'd probably still be in prison or he'd be dead.

[Hards Alumni]

Good chance neither da Buffoon nor Trump will be their party's nominee, hey?

Only if Trump is in prison and Biden is dead.

[Skatastrophy]

Only if Trump is in prison and Biden is dead.

Even if Trump is in prison I bet he'll be nominee. The party is too fractured to spit out a competent candidate, and their voters too taken by the grift to vote for anyone else.

[Uncle Rico]

Even if Trump is in prison I bet he'll be nominee. The party is too fractured to spit out a competent candidate, and their voters too taken by the grift to vote for anyone else.

Being in prison makes him a martyr to his nitwit followers.  What an embarrassing time