Hoyas SOTG

[Goose]

Fluff

I am in agreement on this year's team not being a championship team, but let's see what happens. I agree that this model can continue to grow and be sustained, and Shaka is a great representative of MU and that is important to me. As for winning a NCAA championship, I think that is something the program can grow into overtime and it takes luck, a lot of luck. IMO, this era of MU has the best chance to have success for the long haul and anxious to see how much success.

[Uncle Rico]

Fluff

I am in agreement on this year's team not being a championship team, but let's see what happens. I agree that this model can continue to grow and be sustained, and Shaka is a great representative of MU and that is important to me. As for winning a NCAA championship, I think that is something the program can grow into overtime and it takes luck, a lot of luck. IMO, this era of MU has the best chance to have success for the long haul and anxious to see how much success.

If Gonzaga can constantly compete for national championships, if Villanova can have a decade like they did, then Marquette can.  As you say, there are a lot of factors at play.  The biggest thing Marquette needs is coaching stability and they've got the guy like the Zags and Nova did

Oh, I'm sure if he has a deep run this year or next and big jobs open, he's name will get bandied about but this is the fit for him

[DoctorV]

Chase looks like a better shooter than Vander as well

I loved Vander Blue for many reasons.
I don't even care as much about the UW v MU rivalry as most here, since I'm an Illinois guy and didn't grow up with it, but I loved that he was a Madison kid that chose Marquette.

His defense from the jump was just amazing. I loved that he created extra possessions with defense and hustle plays, I was all in from the start, but most of my buddies didn't really care for him, and I feel like he didn't really get his due from the fanbase.

I felt very vindicated when his offense finally caught up- he became a very good scorer and guided Marquette to its only BE title and an amazing tourney run, and for that I will always be grateful.
I've got nothing to say about the personal stuff and leaving early.

If Chase can one day become the scorer/finisher Vander Blue became in that BE title season then he will play in the NBA, no question in my mind.
I really hope he does.

[DoctorV]

He's a wonderful passer and one of our two MVPs, and I'm happy he has worked his rear off to become a fine PG for Marquette ... but he'll remind me of Travis Diener when he hits huge shots and when he wins NCAA tournament games.

Some forget that Wade was bad in our first 2003 NCAAT game and that it was Diener who saved the team ... and then saved us again (along with Novak) in the next round against Mizzou. Diener was 10-17 from 3 in those two games, and we needed every effen one of those 3s. Then, he had 15 assists as we won our next two tourney games to get to the Final Four.

No Marquette player since then has reminded me of Travis Diener. It would be abso-freakin'-lutely wonderful if Kolek ever does.

Who is the other of the two MVPs?

[tower912]

Oso

[Uncle Rico]

I loved Vander Blue for many reasons.
I don't even care as much about the UW v MU rivalry as most here, since I'm an Illinois guy and didn't grow up with it, but I loved that he was a Madison kid that chose Marquette.

His defense from the jump was just amazing. I loved that he created extra possessions with defense and hustle plays, I was all in from the start, but most of my buddies didn't really care for him, and I feel like he didn't really get his due from the fanbase.

I felt very vindicated when his offense finally caught up- he became a very good scorer and guided Marquette to its only BE title and an amazing tourney run, and for that I will always be grateful.
I've got nothing to say about the personal stuff and leaving early.

If Chase can one day become the scorer/finisher Vander Blue became in that BE title season then he will play in the NBA, no question in my mind.
I really hope he does.

Agree on all those points.  What Vander lacked his first two years offensively, he made up with rebounding and defense.  I just think Chase will be a better offensive player than him.  As for the defense, well, that I don't expect but that's ok.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

TSmith

No kidding, but we only can compare the systems they played in. I have no idea if Tony Miller was capable of doing what Kolek does because I only remember a guy that walked the ball up the court and dribbled 25 feet from the basket for 25 seconds. For the record, I was very happy with the Miller era, but KO played ugly basketball.

They are being compared because it's likely they'll end up as the two most prolific assist guys in MU history. Of course they play/played different styles, because those are/were their coachs' systems. It isn't a lazy comparison unless you are of the opinion that no one who played different styles can be compared.

[Goose]

TSmith

If the comparison is simply off stats, OK. I thought people were comparing the player, not just stats.

[brewcity77]

Speaking of comparisons, I watched Dodds show the other day and he made these comparisons:

Chase Ross: jimmy butler
Sean Jones: Dominic James
Ben Gold: Sam hauser

I think the Jones/James and Gold/Hauser comparisons are choices of convenience, but Chase screams first year Jimmy. I made the same comparison in a chat the other day. Has the length and athleticism to be a stud, and very clearly an NBA player. He has to the moon upside.

[Dickthedribbler]

Speaking of comparisons, I watched Dodds show the other day and he made these comparisons:

Chase Ross: jimmy butler
Sean Jones: Dominic James
Ben Gold: Sam hauser

I think Kolek and Diener have a similar moxie and competitiveness to them. Kolek is a "March moment" or two away from being right there, but his story is a long way from over yet.

Anyone end up in a blender??

[MU82]

82

Other than Tony Miller and Kolek both being assist first guys I see zero similarity with the two. TM had the ball in his hands a ton, seldom moved the ball quickly and was a one-man stall. Kolek moves the ball quickly, gives up the ball maybe too quickly in a half court set and is a far more creative scorer. To be honest, I think the Miller comparison is a lazy example or maybe just not knowing ball.

As for Diener comparison, I see one similarity, Kolek might be as mentally tough as Diener. I laugh when comparisons are simply made off being a traditional or a non-traditional player. Travis Diener was an all-time great competitor and that is what I loved the most about him. Kolek might end up being an all-time great MU PG, but he brings his own skills to the game. One thing I know, he is going to be very hard to replace down the road.

I defer to your memory of Tony Miller's skill set, and yes, I was looking at their pass-first attitudes rather than their styles of play. We are in agreement about Kolek/Diener.

I do get a kick of you and a few others being the arbiters of which Scoopers "know ball," especially when one of the supposed ball-knowers was saying the Bucks should be blown up about 5 minutes before they won the NBA title, and another of the alleged ball-knowers hasn't written an intelligible post on Scoop in 10 years.

For the record, Goose, I think you know ball. Not that I'm an arbiter of it, either.

A year ago, I think after the Illinois game, I made a Brunson comparison.  Still not perfectly accurate, comparisons rarely are. But similar in how they control the game.

I remember that now, tower. I liked that comparison then, and I like it even more now. As you said, not perfect, but definitely can see it, though the eye test tells me our guy is a better passer.

But then again, what do either of us know? Probably not ball.

[LloydsLegs]

Brunson was a much more complete scorer- an outstanding finisher and a post up scorer, and TKo is neither of those things.  Brunson was a career 39% 3 point shooter- TKo could get there.  TKo is a more complete and a much higher volume passer/assist man.  Both are leaders.

[MU82]

Brunson was a much more complete scorer- an outstanding finisher and a post up scorer, and TKo is neither of those things.  Brunson was a career 39% 3 point shooter- TKo could get there.  TKo is a more complete and a much higher volume passer/assist man.  Both are leaders.

Reasonable.

[Goose]

82


There is a common bond amongst the meat summit tribe and that is we all have been MU fans for a long time, and we became the MS tribe because of that bond. Granted, we definitely have a lot of other common interests, but MU basketball is how it started. I think many on here, you included, dismiss knowledge of the game based off of your feelings on a specific poster. Hell, I have responded or reached out to Fluff twice in nearly year for a reason. That said, one time was to hear his thoughts on the program because he knows basketball, and more specifically, MU basketball.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the game and only recently started to adjust my thinking around the current state of the game. There are guys on here, several MS guys and others, that know the game as well. I would put myself in between NolongerWarrior and Dr. James Naismith when graded my knowledge of the game. But I always try and offer thought out comments vs. trying to be an expert.

For the record, I'll take Tyler Kolek in any era of MU basketball.

For the record #2, you know ball but you to try and play both sides of the discussion on a frequent basis, imo.

[MU82]

It's all good, Goose.

My last comment on this topic, for now anyway, is that lots of Scoopers "know ball," even if some don't get the MS Seal of Approval. And aside from Madison-slurping twats like nolonger, we all love Marquette basketball.

[CTWarrior]

TSmith

No kidding, but we only can compare the systems they played in. I have no idea if Tony Miller was capable of doing what Kolek does because I only remember a guy that walked the ball up the court and dribbled 25 feet from the basket for 25 seconds. For the record, I was very happy with the Miller era, but KO played ugly basketball.

Its funny, but I always figured Tony Miller's assist number were all the more remarkable given the speed at which KO's teams played vs the speed at which Shaka's teams played.  But the current team averages less the 2 FGM/G more that Miller's Warriors.  I really liked that kid.  KO's teams got good the moment he arrived.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Its funny, but I always figured Tony Miller's assist number were all the more remarkable given the speed at which KO's teams played vs the speed at which Shaka's teams played.  But the current team averages less the 2 FGM/G more that Miller's Warriors.  I really liked that kid.  KO's teams got good the moment he arrived.

To me, Tony Miller was the absolute most essential recruit of KO's tenure. Watching poor Mark Anglavar being asked to play PG and break the press the year before was painful (and unfair to Mark, who was a pretty good SG).

[Dickthedribbler]

Its funny, but I always figured Tony Miller's assist number were all the more remarkable given the speed at which KO's teams played vs the speed at which Shaka's teams played.  But the current team averages less the 2 FGM/G more that Miller's Warriors.  I really liked that kid.  KO's teams got good the moment he arrived.

Tony Miller also had the benefit of making entry passes to a 7'1 NBA type center who did all of his scoring around the rim. Had to help his assist numbers.

[CTWarrior]

Tony Miller also had the benefit of making entry passes to a 7'1 NBA type center who did all of his scoring around the rim. Had to help his assist numbers.

Jim McIlvaine's career at Marquette has gotten so much better in the years since he graduated it is amazing. 

[Jockey]

Jim McIlvaine's career at Marquette has gotten so much better in the years since he graduated it is amazing.

Funny to see this. Just yesterday, my brother & sister in law (who are friends with Jim) were saying what a great player he was. I said, "no, he is a very rich ex-player".

[Goose]

Big fan of Mac, but realistic in regards to his talent level. I think he was a better investor with his NBA money than he was a player.

[MU82]

Who is the other of the two MVPs?

We have two players that when either leaves the floor, there's almost always a noticeable fall-off in our play, Kolek and Oso.

In the second half of the last game, it was nice to see their backups actually help stretch the lead. That's not been the norm.

[DoctorV]

We have two players that when either leaves the floor, there's almost always a noticeable fall-off in our play, Kolek and Oso.

In the second half of the last game, it was nice to see their backups actually help stretch the lead. That's not been the norm.

I honestly didn't know what the answer would be, and there's one of the biggest strengths of this team.

I bet if we started a poll with "who are this teams two best players?" we would get some mixed and interesting results.

Thing is, you are right about the drop off when TyKo or Oso leave the court.

Other thing is, Kam Jones could be more likely a first team BE player than both.

One more thing is that imo this season has shown that OMax has to play well for Marquette to win the game.

So, here we are. Great discussion to have when coming into the season we did not know if any of the four were elite BE players.

[MU82]

You're right, V, talking about which of our really good players are the really goodest IS a great discussion to have!

I'll disagree now that Kam would get more all-conference honors than Oso or Kolek, but obviously we'll see at the end.

[Lennys Tap]

It's all good, Goose.

My last comment on this topic, for now anyway, is that lots of Scoopers "know ball," even if some don't get the MS Seal of Approval. And aside from Madison-slurping twats like nolonger, we all love Marquette basketball.

Mike

It's true that a lot of Scoopers "know ball". But some that "know ball" have trouble seeing the forest for the trees. Anyone who didn't see early on that Buzz was the goods and that Shaka was the goods without the "Buzz baggage"missed the big picture. Same with those who clung for years to the belief that Wojo could get it done when it was obvious he couldn't.

I don't know what Kolek's 3rd option off the high pick and roll is - but I'm sure some here do. In that sense I guess they "know ball" much better than me. But I know a well coached/poorly coached team when I see them. So I guess there are different definitions of what it means to "know ball".