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Poll

Can Marquette become a Blueblood again?

Of course, we have the coach, the facilities and budget to do it. It just takes time
Maybe, but we have serious work to do
Am not sure but the team still is entertaining
Probably not. NIL, conference restructuring and one-and-dones mean time has passed us by
Are you kidding? Al McGuire was a fluke never to be repeated!

Author Topic: Blue Blood  (Read 3292 times)

dgies9156

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Blue Blood
« on: September 01, 2022, 09:01:00 AM »
OK, I've been wondering about this a lot lately.

I recently moved from Illinois to Florida and in the process of packing up found a lot of old memorabilia from the McGuire era in my basement and tucked away in bookcases. As I looked back on that era -- after more than 45 years -- you begin to realize how special it was and how we at the time took Marquette's greatness for granted. We've tried for decades to get there but, for one reason or another (all of which have been well-documented on Scoop), we've not quite reached what we were. For one, I tended to fail to realize how good we really were!

So two questions -- what do you think? And, what's really in our way. I'll start!

McGuire was a fluke of sorts. He was coaching down at a small college in North Carolina when the Jesuits hired him. I don't think anybody had any idea of what's coming. We tried the same thing with Bob Dukiet and got what we probably should have gotten hiring from Belmont Abbey. We've had some winners -- O'Neal, Crean and Williams come to mind. But they never had the longevity to make Marquette THE destination. All left for Power 5 programs. None really did better than they did at Marquette. Buzz may be the exception, but we will see.

In short, to become a blue blood again, we need coaching stability from a coach that's a proven winner. I'm mildly optimistic about Coach Smart -- he did a great job last year -- but I'm yet to be convinced he can produce the results Coach McGuire did, which are consistent Top 10, annual NCAA invites and deep penetration in the tournament. We'll see what happens with recruiting but Marquette still has a long way to go.

wadesworld

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2022, 09:31:38 AM »
No.

I don't see Marquette winning a national title in my lifetime.  And if you don't win a single national title in a nearly 100 year (God willing) period, you aren't a blue blood.

Not to mention, even a program like Gonzaga is not a blue blood and they've been to three Sweet Sixteens, two Elite Eights, and two National Title games in the last 7 NCAA Tournaments.  Marquette isn't having a run close to that anytime soon.
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brewcity77

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2022, 09:53:08 AM »
Become a blue blood? Probably not. I guess it depends on your definition. UCLA, Kentucky, UNC, Duke, and Kansas seem like the most established blue bloods. Let's look at their credentials:

  • UCLA: 11 national titles, 18 Final Fours, monster program in 1960s & 1970s, but far less prolific since (one title under Harrick, 3 straight FFs under Howland, Cronin seems like he's moving them back to prominence).
  • Kentucky: 8 national titles, 17 Final Fours, probably the first blue blood and has maintained that status.
  • UNC: 6 national titles, 21 Final Fours, maybe the most consistent blue blood with Final Fours in each of the last 9 decades and at least one title in each of the past 4 decades.
  • Duke: 5 national titles, 17 Final Fours, good program that moved to blue blood status in the 40 years of Coach K. Interesting to see if they'll sustain that status without him.
  • Kansas: 4 national titles, 16 Final Fours, their last 6 coaches have all taken the program to at least one Final Four dating back to Phog Allen's tenure dating back to 1919.
After that, there are legacy blue bloods like Indiana, Louisville, UConn and Michigan State that might like to think of themselves as blue bloods, but probably aren't anymore or never quite got to that level. There are also the "new bloods" like Villanova, Gonzaga, Baylor, and Florida State, though I'm not sure anyone outside Tallahassee takes their claim very seriously with one Final Four appearance 50 years ago.

Honestly, as much as we might have been one of the best programs of the 1970s, I'm not sure Marquette was ever a blue blood. We had a great decade run, but we never had the Final Four appearances or titles to really be on par with UCLA or Kentucky. Looking at us in the 1970s, we seemed similar to the level a Baylor or Gonzaga is at now. Exciting, great program, but really not all that successful on a national level beyond the (then) current run. So let's break it into tiers:

  • New Bloods: This is attainable. While it's a new term, programs like Marquette in the 1970s, Georgetown in the 1980s, Arkansas in the 1990s, Florida in the 2000s, and Villanova in the 2010s all got there for a time. They were elite in the moment, but not generationally elite as programs. If Shaka gets us to 2-3 Final Fours over a 10-15 year span while cutting down the nets at least once, we can hit this status.
  • Legacy Blue Bloods: If we get to New Blood status, I don't think Legacy Blue Blood is that far away. It would probably take 2-3 titles, similar to what Jay did at Villanova, and 1-2 more Final Fours. If we got to 3 national titles and 7 Final Four appearances (2 titles and 2 non-title F4s would do it) then we would be on par with what programs like Indiana, Louisville and UConn have done historically.
  • Blue Bloods: Smart would have to have a K like run over the next 25-30 years. At least 4 national titles and 6 non-title winning Final Fours. If he coaches 30 years, wins a title roughly every 7 years, and goes to a Final Four every 4, then we're maybe being called a Blue Blood when he steps away in 2050 or so. Is that possible? It's hard to imagine, but as we've seen with guys like Donovan, Wright, and Few, success breeds success. Start winning, get to another Final Four, build on it, and stay in Milwaukee, and I guess anything's possible.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2022, 10:04:32 AM »
Unlikeky
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Newsdreams

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2022, 10:05:57 AM »
OK, I've been wondering about this a lot lately.

I recently moved from Illinois to Florida and in the process of packing up found a lot of old memorabilia from the McGuire era in my basement and tucked away in bookcases. As I looked back on that era -- after more than 45 years -- you begin to realize how special it was and how we at the time took Marquette's greatness for granted. We've tried for decades to get there but, for one reason or another (all of which have been well-documented on Scoop), we've not quite reached what we were. For one, I tended to fail to realize how good we really were!

So two questions -- what do you think? And, what's really in our way. I'll start!

McGuire was a fluke of sorts. He was coaching down at a small college in North Carolina when the Jesuits hired him. I don't think anybody had any idea of what's coming. We tried the same thing with Bob Dukiet and got what we probably should have gotten hiring from Belmont Abbey. We've had some winners -- O'Neal, Crean and Williams come to mind. But they never had the longevity to make Marquette THE destination. All left for Power 5 programs. None really did better than they did at Marquette. Buzz may be the exception, but we will see.

In short, to become a blue blood again, we need coaching stability from a coach that's a proven winner. I'm mildly optimistic about Coach Smart -- he did a great job last year -- but I'm yet to be convinced he can produce the results Coach McGuire did, which are consistent Top 10, annual NCAA invites and deep penetration in the tournament. We'll see what happens with recruiting but Marquette still has a long way to go.
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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2022, 10:46:21 AM »
Extremely unlikely but certainly possible. All it really takes is hiring the right young coach, getting them to stay 20+ years, and find a successor who can step in seamlessly and build on their predecessor's success.

Unfortunately, there a very very very few of those right young coaches and every time you hire a new one you have to invest at least three years in them before trying again if they aren't the right one.
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bilsu

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2022, 12:32:28 PM »
We can have a good run, just like we did under McGuire. However, that will not make us a blue blood.

Hards Alumni

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2022, 12:41:16 PM »
I always assumed most of the Blue blood in the US was in the hills of West Virginia and Kentucky.

94Warrior

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2022, 01:32:09 PM »
Let’s trying winning the Big East Regular Season (something we haven’t done in 10 years) or the BET just once (something we have never done).  Then let’s repeat 10 of the next 12 years, win a couple Natty’s and then we’ll be in Villanova territory.
Are they a blue blood?  I would say no, they were close, but no cigar now that Jay Wright has retired.

MU82

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2022, 01:35:03 PM »
I still say that, with the right coach (and a little luck), Marquette could do what Nova and Gonzaga have done the past 20 years.

I agree it would be extremely difficult, but nobody in 2000 was saying, "Just watch how good Nova and Gonzaga are gonna be over the next couple of decades, especially starting in 2015 or so."

But I agree with brewski that as good as Wright's and Few's programs became, they weren't really blue bloods, and I don't think Marquette can be one, either.
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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2022, 01:57:19 PM »
MU had a chance after they went to the final 4, but Crean was never able to recruit a quality big.  Just like Raymond’s lost Aquirre and McCray.  That would have made MU elite for 5 more years. Not being able to recruit better when Doc Rivers was here.  Loss of Ricky Olson and Joe Wolf killed Majurus.  It can happen but it first starts with kids from Wisconsin to go to MU. Kon Kneuppel would be start,  Crean had 3 from Wisky that were really good. Need some local kids.

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2022, 02:15:01 PM »
Let’s trying winning the Big East Regular Season (something we haven’t done in 10 years) or the BET just once (something we have never done).  Then let’s repeat 10 of the next 12 years, win a couple Natty’s and then we’ll be in Villanova territory.
Are they a blue blood?  I would say no, they were close, but no cigar now that Jay Wright has retired.

I would say that Villanova is over halfway done with their journey to blue blood status. If Neptune can build on Wright's success, they will be a genuine blue blood. That's a big if though
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tower912

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2022, 02:46:31 PM »
Villanova. had a hell of a run, but are not considered blue bloods.    I think the Villanova run is MU's dream,  but that will not return MU to blue blood status.

Realistically,  I think Buzz's run is as close as MU is likely to get. 
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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2022, 03:56:24 PM »
Dgies, I was at Marquette about 7 years ahead of you and completely understand your feeling of being there during the "Al Era". Now in regard to your 2 questions:

 I think that only a very patient, long term Villanova/Jay Wright approach can get us back to national prominence. It's possible, but post Wright Nova, Xavier, Creighton, and UCONN stand in the way (just addressing our own conference for the upcoming season). I like your optimism and fervent hopes for a rebirth of Al Era success, but we are at 45 years post Natty and counting. In the post Al years, success has been umm...erratic. Reality check time.

I'll try to end on a more positive note. I think Shaka is the guy who can pull it off and I can see him as a "lifer" (although I didn't when it was down to him and Moser). He's back to his VCU coaching and that's a good sign for Marquette.
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muwarrior69

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2022, 04:23:07 PM »
Become a blue blood? Probably not. I guess it depends on your definition. UCLA, Kentucky, UNC, Duke, and Kansas seem like the most established blue bloods. Let's look at their credentials:

  • UCLA: 11 national titles, 18 Final Fours, monster program in 1960s & 1970s, but far less prolific since (one title under Harrick, 3 straight FFs under Howland, Cronin seems like he's moving them back to prominence).
  • Kentucky: 8 national titles, 17 Final Fours, probably the first blue blood and has maintained that status.
  • UNC: 6 national titles, 21 Final Fours, maybe the most consistent blue blood with Final Fours in each of the last 9 decades and at least one title in each of the past 4 decades.
  • Duke: 5 national titles, 17 Final Fours, good program that moved to blue blood status in the 40 years of Coach K. Interesting to see if they'll sustain that status without him.
  • Kansas: 4 national titles, 16 Final Fours, their last 6 coaches have all taken the program to at least one Final Four dating back to Phog Allen's tenure dating back to 1919.
After that, there are legacy blue bloods like Indiana, Louisville, UConn and Michigan State that might like to think of themselves as blue bloods, but probably aren't anymore or never quite got to that level. There are also the "new bloods" like Villanova, Gonzaga, Baylor, and Florida State, though I'm not sure anyone outside Tallahassee takes their claim very seriously with one Final Four appearance 50 years ago.

Honestly, as much as we might have been one of the best programs of the 1970s, I'm not sure Marquette was ever a blue blood. We had a great decade run, but we never had the Final Four appearances or titles to really be on par with UCLA or Kentucky. Looking at us in the 1970s, we seemed similar to the level a Baylor or Gonzaga is at now. Exciting, great program, but really not all that successful on a national level beyond the (then) current run. So let's break it into tiers:

  • New Bloods: This is attainable. While it's a new term, programs like Marquette in the 1970s, Georgetown in the 1980s, Arkansas in the 1990s, Florida in the 2000s, and Villanova in the 2010s all got there for a time. They were elite in the moment, but not generationally elite as programs. If Shaka gets us to 2-3 Final Fours over a 10-15 year span while cutting down the nets at least once, we can hit this status.
  • Legacy Blue Bloods: If we get to New Blood status, I don't think Legacy Blue Blood is that far away. It would probably take 2-3 titles, similar to what Jay did at Villanova, and 1-2 more Final Fours. If we got to 3 national titles and 7 Final Four appearances (2 titles and 2 non-title F4s would do it) then we would be on par with what programs like Indiana, Louisville and UConn have done historically.
  • Blue Bloods: Smart would have to have a K like run over the next 25-30 years. At least 4 national titles and 6 non-title winning Final Fours. If he coaches 30 years, wins a title roughly every 7 years, and goes to a Final Four every 4, then we're maybe being called a Blue Blood when he steps away in 2050 or so. Is that possible? It's hard to imagine, but as we've seen with guys like Donovan, Wright, and Few, success breeds success. Start winning, get to another Final Four, build on it, and stay in Milwaukee, and I guess anything's possible.

So digies is being nostalgic for the McGuire years and asks if we can return to that status. Most here don't think so, but I'm the whiner when I factually stated the last 10 years have sucked. I don't want us to be the team that pulled the big upset. I want us to be the team that was upset. Right now we are not even close to being that kind of team.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2022, 04:48:40 PM »
Become a blue blood? Probably not. I guess it depends on your definition. UCLA, Kentucky, UNC, Duke, and Kansas seem like the most established blue bloods. Let's look at their credentials:

  • UCLA: 11 national titles, 18 Final Fours, monster program in 1960s & 1970s, but far less prolific since (one title under Harrick, 3 straight FFs under Howland, Cronin seems like he's moving them back to prominence).
  • Kentucky: 8 national titles, 17 Final Fours, probably the first blue blood and has maintained that status.
  • UNC: 6 national titles, 21 Final Fours, maybe the most consistent blue blood with Final Fours in each of the last 9 decades and at least one title in each of the past 4 decades.
  • Duke: 5 national titles, 17 Final Fours, good program that moved to blue blood status in the 40 years of Coach K. Interesting to see if they'll sustain that status without him.
  • Kansas: 4 national titles, 16 Final Fours, their last 6 coaches have all taken the program to at least one Final Four dating back to Phog Allen's tenure dating back to 1919.
After that, there are legacy blue bloods like Indiana, Louisville, UConn and Michigan State that might like to think of themselves as blue bloods, but probably aren't anymore or never quite got to that level. There are also the "new bloods" like Villanova, Gonzaga, Baylor, and Florida State, though I'm not sure anyone outside Tallahassee takes their claim very seriously with one Final Four appearance 50 years ago.

Honestly, as much as we might have been one of the best programs of the 1970s, I'm not sure Marquette was ever a blue blood. We had a great decade run, but we never had the Final Four appearances or titles to really be on par with UCLA or Kentucky. Looking at us in the 1970s, we seemed similar to the level a Baylor or Gonzaga is at now. Exciting, great program, but really not all that successful on a national level beyond the (then) current run. So let's break it into tiers:

  • New Bloods: This is attainable. While it's a new term, programs like Marquette in the 1970s, Georgetown in the 1980s, Arkansas in the 1990s, Florida in the 2000s, and Villanova in the 2010s all got there for a time. They were elite in the moment, but not generationally elite as programs. If Shaka gets us to 2-3 Final Fours over a 10-15 year span while cutting down the nets at least once, we can hit this status.
  • Legacy Blue Bloods: If we get to New Blood status, I don't think Legacy Blue Blood is that far away. It would probably take 2-3 titles, similar to what Jay did at Villanova, and 1-2 more Final Fours. If we got to 3 national titles and 7 Final Four appearances (2 titles and 2 non-title F4s would do it) then we would be on par with what programs like Indiana, Louisville and UConn have done historically.
  • Blue Bloods: Smart would have to have a K like run over the next 25-30 years. At least 4 national titles and 6 non-title winning Final Fours. If he coaches 30 years, wins a title roughly every 7 years, and goes to a Final Four every 4, then we're maybe being called a Blue Blood when he steps away in 2050 or so. Is that possible? It's hard to imagine, but as we've seen with guys like Donovan, Wright, and Few, success breeds success. Start winning, get to another Final Four, build on it, and stay in Milwaukee, and I guess anything's possible.

Brew,

Excellent synopsis but (even though you qualified their inclusion) how does Florida State even bear a mention?

MU82

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2022, 06:38:07 PM »
So digies is being nostalgic for the McGuire years and asks if we can return to that status. Most here don't think so, but I'm the whiner when I factually stated the last 10 years have sucked. I don't want us to be the team that pulled the big upset. I want us to be the team that was upset. Right now we are not even close to being that kind of team.

I never called you a "whiner." I said it was silly to talk about the last 10 years when looking ahead to the future. The last 10 years have nothing to do with 2022-23 and beyond.

We all want to win.

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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2022, 06:47:39 PM »
Agree that Indiana has slipped a long way from blue blood status as has Michigan State. No B1G national championships this century. Time to stop living in the past.

I would argue that Wisconsin and Michigan are the blue bloods of the B1G now.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2022, 06:49:37 PM »
Agree that Indiana has slipped a long way from blue blood status as has Michigan State. No B1G national championships this century. Time to stop living in the past.

I would argue that Wisconsin and Michigan are the blue bloods of the B1G now.

Michigan State is ahead of both of them and I’m a Spartans despiser.  They were in the Final 4 in 2019
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2022, 06:59:30 PM »
Michigan State is ahead of both of them and I’m a Spartans despiser.  They were in the Final 4 in 2019

I would agree as Indiana and MSU shouldn't have even been mentioned together by me. But, doesn't a "blue blood" have to win or get to the national championship game fairly recently to hold that title? Michigan and Wisconsin have at least?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2022, 07:08:14 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

Uncle Rico

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2022, 07:07:05 PM »
I would agree as Indiana and MSU should even have been mentioned together by me. But, doesn't a "blue blood" have to win or get to the national championship game fairly recently to hold that title? Michigan and Wisconsin have at least?

I think Michigan State’s run of excellence in the Izzo era surpasses what the other two have done recently.  They’re still the gold standard of the league and the last to win it all.  They’ll be in big games early in the year regardless of roster.  No one is fighting to get Wisconsin on TV in a big game in November or December.  Michigan is probably much closer to the Spartans than UW
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MU82

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2022, 07:50:46 PM »
Plus, Michigan State has Vanilla Soft Serve.

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Newsdreams

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2022, 08:23:02 PM »
We have had plenty of blue wieners
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bilsu

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2022, 08:53:39 PM »
I do not consider UCLA to be a blue blood.

Herman Cain

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2022, 09:02:04 PM »
OK, I've been wondering about this a lot lately.

I recently moved from Illinois to Florida and in the process of packing up found a lot of old memorabilia from the McGuire era in my basement and tucked away in bookcases. As I looked back on that era -- after more than 45 years -- you begin to realize how special it was and how we at the time took Marquette's greatness for granted. We've tried for decades to get there but, for one reason or another (all of which have been well-documented on Scoop), we've not quite reached what we were. For one, I tended to fail to realize how good we really were!

So two questions -- what do you think? And, what's really in our way. I'll start!

McGuire was a fluke of sorts. He was coaching down at a small college in North Carolina when the Jesuits hired him. I don't think anybody had any idea of what's coming. We tried the same thing with Bob Dukiet and got what we probably should have gotten hiring from Belmont Abbey. We've had some winners -- O'Neal, Crean and Williams come to mind. But they never had the longevity to make Marquette THE destination. All left for Power 5 programs. None really did better than they did at Marquette. Buzz may be the exception, but we will see.

In short, to become a blue blood again, we need coaching stability from a coach that's a proven winner. I'm mildly optimistic about Coach Smart -- he did a great job last year -- but I'm yet to be convinced he can produce the results Coach McGuire did, which are consistent Top 10, annual NCAA invites and deep penetration in the tournament. We'll see what happens with recruiting but Marquette still has a long way to go.
MU had the chance to get to the Villanova based on the foundation Crean /Buzz built. Wojo flushed all that hard work down the toilet .

So now Shaka has to start over . He got out of the blocks with a winning season and made it to the tournament . Now he just has to put up a 20 year run of sustained excellence to get to that Villanova level .

The True Current Blood Bloods have attractive campuses , deep pockets and multiple decades of sustained excellence . They select the players they want . MU cannot achieve that level .

Al was a force of nature and had MU as the number 2 program in the country. Teams were afraid of MU and the toughness of The Warriors . The Best urban players wanted to come to MU. MU made a huge mistake not hiring Denny Crumm and going with Hank instead.
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