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Poll

Can Marquette become a Blueblood again?

Of course, we have the coach, the facilities and budget to do it. It just takes time
Maybe, but we have serious work to do
Am not sure but the team still is entertaining
Probably not. NIL, conference restructuring and one-and-dones mean time has passed us by
Are you kidding? Al McGuire was a fluke never to be repeated!

Author Topic: Blue Blood  (Read 3281 times)

Nukem2

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2022, 09:21:40 PM »
MU had the chance to get to the Villanova based on the foundation Crean /Buzz built. Wojo flushed all that hard work down the toilet .

So now Shaka has to start over . He got out of the blocks with a winning season and made it to the tournament . Now he just has to put up a 20 year run of sustained excellence to get to that Villanova level .

The True Current Blood Bloods have attractive campuses , deep pockets and multiple decades of sustained excellence . They select the players they want . MU cannot achieve that level .

Al was a force of nature and had MU as the number 2 program in the country. Teams were afraid of MU and the toughness of The Warriors . The Best urban players wanted to come to MU. MU made a huge mistake not hiring Denny Crumm and going with Hank instead.
Yep.  Hank really was very good from a coaching perspective. But, he was simply too nice a person to prevail at a high level as a program manager. His years were far from poor, but was a huge downgrade from the Al era. Then, Rick was not quite ready. As for Dukiet, we’ll, I will try to be nice here but…… It’s just really really hard to get back to Al’s gold standard.

Viper

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2022, 09:33:15 PM »
Agree that Indiana has slipped a long way from blue blood status as has Michigan State. No B1G national championships this century. Time to stop living in the past.

I would argue that Wisconsin and Michigan are the blue bloods of the B1G now.
Wisconsin and Michigan? Ah, no. Michigan State the BIG king, and still the king.
To the question on MU returning to ‘70’s glory and blue blood status? ‘70’s glory can happen. No reason MU can’t reach a couple FF’s in a decade. Heck, RED did. As we know, MU is basketball centric. Solid conference. Fiserv Forum. Decent national exposure. More than adequate recruiting budget. But, need a difference-maker recruit more often than MU has, imo. Blue blood status? No.
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brewcity77

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2022, 09:48:01 PM »
Brew,

Excellent synopsis but (even though you qualified their inclusion) how does Florida State even bear a mention?

I'm pretty sure they coined the term, which is why they always get a mention when "new bloods" comes up. But I don't think they're close to truly being in any of these three.
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dgies9156

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2022, 09:26:34 AM »
Wow, interesting perspectives. Especially Brew's.

Being nostalgic, we were Blue Blood in college basketball at the time. In the late 1960s through 1980, the prominent teams were North Carolina, UCLA, Marquette, Kentucky. UCLA was so dominant for so long that they obscured what else was going on in college basketball.

All that said, I do think we can return to consistently being among the best programs in college basketball. As others have said, we were close with Crean/Buzz and good things were happening when the wheels fell off.

I'm more optimistic than most because Shaka came from a Power 5 school and assembled talent that should have gone far further than it did at Texas. While I can't say I know Shaka at all, I'm of the view that Marquette offers him what he wants and he's likely to be here for the long-haul. That's why I'm of the view that we have work to do but we again can consistently be among the best teams in college basketball.

The landscape is different in college basketball now than it was in the 1970s, as the talent is far more diffused than it ever used to be and there's far more competitive basketball programs now versus then, but we can do it. We have to have the will to be the best!

Keep in mind that it took Al two years to build the team he needed and 12 years to get to the promised land. We had our share of misfires and "oops" in the NCAA tournament (1969, 1971, 1972, 1975 all come to mind).

As a further note, Indiana fell off the consistently best list (blue bloods) largely because of coaching instability. I still think Michigan State is a blue blood but a re-energized Michigan program is giving them a run for their money with in-state talent.



rgoode57

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2022, 09:29:40 AM »
Someone here said they do not consider UCLA to be a blue blood. Apparently they don't know much about the history of college hoops.

Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, NC, and Kansas are the only true blue bloods. That has been the case fir a long, long time.  There is always some one like Villanova, Baylor, Gonzaga, etc making a run. But to get to blue blood level takes decades of success and multiple national titles. Even in the heyday of MU basketball, we were never in danger of becoming a blue blood - and Al would have hated that anyway.

JWags85

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2022, 09:48:02 AM »
I think Michigan State’s run of excellence in the Izzo era surpasses what the other two have done recently.  They’re still the gold standard of the league and the last to win it all.  They’ll be in big games early in the year regardless of roster.  No one is fighting to get Wisconsin on TV in a big game in November or December.  Michigan is probably much closer to the Spartans than UW

Yea, over the last 20 years, MSU has 4 more E8s and 3 more FFs than anyone else in the B10.  Michigan, UW, and even Purdue are all pretty close in that span.  No more than 1 S16 or 1E8 separating them.

But I agree with the latter point.  Wisconsin is 5 years removed from a S16 and 7 from an E8.  In that span, Michigan has racked up 5 S16s, 2 E8s, and a runner up.  Different trajectories.  Hell, even PU has 3 S16s and an E8 since Wisconsin made the second weekend.

NCMUFan

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2022, 09:50:11 AM »
Shaka report card is totally incomplete.
It was nice to get into the NCAA tournament.
Don't expect to see results much different than at Texas and VCU.
If you can live with that Marquette BB will entertaining and worth watching.
If not, well start looking for your next coach.

muwarrior69

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2022, 11:00:02 AM »
Someone here said they do not consider UCLA to be a blue blood. Apparently they don't know much about the history of college hoops.

Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, NC, and Kansas
are the only true blue bloods. That has been the case fir a long, long time.  There is always some one like Villanova, Baylor, Gonzaga, etc making a run. But to get to blue blood level takes decades of success and multiple national titles. Even in the heyday of MU basketball, we were never in danger of becoming a blue blood - and Al would have hated that anyway.

We can argue this until we're blue in the face. Here is a list of NCAA Champions with 3 or more:

UCLA — 11
Kentucky — 8
North Carolina — 6
Duke — 5
Indiana — 5
Kansas — 4
UConn — 4
Villanova — 3

UCLA won 10 of those titles under Wooden over one decade, all of Dukes titles were won under Coach K, Kansas has as many titles as UConn and Villanova has one 3 titles under two coaches. I would call them all Blue Blood programs, but to leave other schools out and other schools in I find odd. We can argue how many final 4s or Elite 8s each school has achieved over the course of time and though some of these teams are not playing at the level their history has shown does not mean they are not "Blue Bloods" with an elite history of college basketball.




Scoop Snoop

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2022, 12:11:31 PM »
So digies is being nostalgic for the McGuire years and asks if we can return to that status. Most here don't think so, but I'm the whiner when I factually stated the last 10 years have sucked. I don't want us to be the team that pulled the big upset. I want us to be the team that was upset. Right now we are not even close to being that kind of team.

Factually? How is this a "fact"? Where is your definition and/or parameters? And who else agrees with them? Are you going to cherry pick the blowout loss to NCAA runner up UNC and neglect to consider the sweep of Nova in your declaration that we "sucked "last season? Did we suck in '18-19' because of the Murray State game alone?
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Newsdreams

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2022, 01:10:22 PM »
Factually? How is this a "fact"? Where is your definition and/or parameters? And who else agrees with them? Are you going to cherry pick the blowout loss to NCAA runner up UNC and neglect to consider the sweep of Nova in your declaration that we "sucked "last season? Did we suck in '18-19' because of the Murray State game alone?
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willie warrior

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2022, 04:26:11 PM »
Hmmmm...Thought everybody here agreed that Shaka kahn was the guy to bring MU back. Not much faith here

tower912

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2022, 04:36:18 PM »
If Shaka brought MU  to Villanova levels under Wright, that would still will not make MU a blue blood.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2022, 04:37:17 PM »
Hmmmm...Thought everybody here agreed that Shaka kahn was the guy to bring MU back. Not much faith here

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muwarrior69

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2022, 08:20:55 PM »
Factually? How is this a "fact"? Where is your definition and/or parameters? And who else agrees with them? Are you going to cherry pick the blowout loss to NCAA runner up UNC and neglect to consider the sweep of Nova in your declaration that we "sucked "last season? Did we suck in '18-19' because of the Murray State game alone?

What success did we have over the last ten years? Is getting into the tournament twice in the last 10 years and losing both games success? In both those seasons the team pretty much crashed at the end playing dismally in February and March; so no it was not those two loses, but they were the culmination of how badly the team was playing at the end. Our Big East Tournament record is just appalling. Having such a talent as Markus, along with Sam, not resulting in post season success really sucked. So you tell me how great the last ten years were.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 08:25:50 PM by muwarrior69 »

bilsu

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2022, 08:42:17 PM »
Someone here said they do not consider UCLA to be a blue blood. Apparently they don't know much about the history of college hoops.

Kentucky, UCLA, Duke, NC, and Kansas are the only true blue bloods. That has been the case for a long, long time.  There is always some one like Villanova, Baylor, Gonzaga, etc making a run. But to get to blue blood level takes decades of success and multiple national titles. Even in the heyday of MU basketball, we were never in danger of becoming a blue blood - and Al would have hated that anyway.
I was the one that posted this, and I was waiting for someone to disagree. There is no doubt that UCLA is a great program. They are 7th on the all-time wins list with 1,849 wins. Duke, a blue blood is 4th with 2,115. To put this in perspective UCLA might catch Duke in wins in 10 years, if Duke gave up basketball today. There are only four blue bloods. UNC, Kentucky and Kansas each have over 2200 wins. I am not going to figure it out, but each of these four schools in the 21st century have had considerably more number 1 seeds than UCLA.

I would put UCLA in the next category down form the blue bloods, which is where I would put Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan St., etc.

I started going to MU games in 1962, so I was around for the great UCLA era. I actually was at a double header in Chicago where MU played Loyola and UCLA played Northwestern. Thompson and Alcinder were sophomores.

How many weeks has UCLA been ranked number 1 in the 21st century?

UCLA has not done enough in the 21st century to be consider a blue blood in my book. Wisconsin has done more than UCLA in the 21st century.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2022, 08:56:14 PM »
I was the one that posted this, and I was waiting for someone to disagree. There is no doubt that UCLA is a great program. They are 7th on the all-time wins list with 1,849 wins. Duke, a blue blood is 4th with 2,115. To put this in perspective UCLA might catch Duke in wins in 10 years, if Duke gave up basketball today. There are only four blue bloods. UNC, Kentucky and Kansas each have over 2200 wins. I am not going to figure it out, but each of these four schools in the 21st century have had considerably more number 1 seeds than UCLA.

I would put UCLA in the next category down form the blue bloods, which is where I would put Villanova, Gonzaga, Michigan St., etc.

I started going to MU games in 1962, so I was around for the great UCLA era. I actually was at a double header in Chicago where MU played Loyola and UCLA played Northwestern. Thompson and Alcinder were sophomores.

How many weeks has UCLA been ranked number 1 in the 21st century?

UCLA has not done enough in the 21st century to be consider a blue blood in my book. Wisconsin has done more than UCLA in the 21st century.

I’m on board with this (not that it matters).  UCLA and Indiana are not blue bloods anymore.  UCLA will find it even harder to be relevant in basketball joining the Big Ten.  Realignment has been bad for basketball schools save maybe Louisville who have shot themselves in the foot.  I know Syracuse has made a Final Four but they’re an afterthought in the ACC.  UCLA might find some success from time-to-time but they’ll never be Kentucky or UNC again.
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Newsdreams

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2022, 09:02:45 PM »
What success did we have over the last ten years? Is getting into the tournament twice in the last 10 years and losing both games success? In both those seasons the team pretty much crashed at the end playing dismally in February and March; so no it was not those two loses, but they were the culmination of how badly the team was playing at the end. Our Big East Tournament record is just appalling. Having such a talent as Markus, along with Sam, not resulting in post season success really sucked. So you tell me how great the last ten years were.
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MU82

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2022, 09:42:45 PM »
What success did we have over the last ten years? Is getting into the tournament twice in the last 10 years and losing both games success? In both those seasons the team pretty much crashed at the end playing dismally in February and March; so no it was not those two loses, but they were the culmination of how badly the team was playing at the end. Our Big East Tournament record is just appalling. Having such a talent as Markus, along with Sam, not resulting in post season success really sucked. So you tell me how great the last ten years were.

Marquette made the tournament 4x in the last decade, 5 if one counts 2020 (which one should).

And again, for the bazillionth time, what happened the last decade or the last 50 years or the last century will have zero influence on what happens the next decade.

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Scoop Snoop

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2022, 09:52:43 PM »
What success did we have over the last ten years? Is getting into the tournament twice in the last 10 years and losing both games success? In both those seasons the team pretty much crashed at the end playing dismally in February and March; so no it was not those two loses, but they were the culmination of how badly the team was playing at the end. Our Big East Tournament record is just appalling. Having such a talent as Markus, along with Sam, not resulting in post season success really sucked. So you tell me how great the last ten years were.

"I have factually stated the last ten years have sucked" are your words, not mine. You own them. You have supplied no definition, no parameters which a logical, rational person would do. Instead, you presented your ranting opinion as fact. Put up or shut up.

Last October, you wrote "I would have picked us last as I have no idea how this team will perform on the court"   ::)

We were on campus about the same time. Logic was a required course for Freshmen. Did you flunk it?

I believe that you totaled 28 posts on the NIL thread before you finally stopped pushing your tuition theory. Are you going to top that here?

I posted the Cambridge Dictionary definition of the word "outlook" for you on that thread as you are clearly confused as to its meaning. Like this thread, it is about the future. Maybe I should post a definition of future for you also.


« Last Edit: September 02, 2022, 10:06:13 PM by Scoop Snoop »
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Mu8891

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2022, 02:07:43 PM »
Can MU be a “ Blue Blood “ ??
LOL… ummm , NO.  Not even a 1% chance

For them to get to the Nova or Gonzaga level would take 20 years, and be damn close to a miracle.

And … for those of you that think Shaka will stay here for 10 years ( let alone 20)
those days are in the past

Let’s win a game in the NCAAT first.
Go from there

BCHoopster

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2022, 02:21:24 PM »
Can MU be a “ Blue Blood “ ??
LOL… ummm , NO.  Not even a 1% chance

For them to get to the Nova or Gonzaga level would take 20 years, and be damn close to a miracle. 


When you can recruit Top 10 players every year you can become a Blue Blood, Al did it, Shaka starts really winning, maybe.  Al got George then Dean came, the rest is history.  Start winning you might get a Top 10 player to at least visit.  Winning a game or two in the tourney is a start.

And … for those of you that think Shaka will stay here for 10 years ( let alone 20)
those days are in the past

Let’s win a game in the NCAAT first.
Go from there

brewcity77

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2022, 02:55:58 PM »
Can MU be a “ Blue Blood “ ??
LOL… ummm , NO.  Not even a 1% chance

For them to get to the Nova or Gonzaga level would take 20 years, and be damn close to a miracle.

And … for those of you that think Shaka will stay here for 10 years ( let alone 20)
those days are in the past

This is simply silly. It's not likely, but it isn't less than 1% and it wouldn't take a miracle and the days of coaches staying beyond 10 years at programs isn't over. Mark Few took over a Gonzaga program that was less than what Marquette is now and has been there more than 20 years. Scott Drew is going on 20 years at Baylor, and they were in a far worse state when he took over than what Shaka. Tony Bennett has been at Virginia more than a decade, they were a lesser program than ours when he got there.

Leonard Hamilton at FSU, Mike Brey at Notre Dame, Fran McCaffrey at Iowa, Matt Painter at Purdue, Dana Altman at Oregon, Greg McDermott at Creighton, Ed Cooley at Providence, all have more than 10 years at their current job, all are either first or second all time in coaching wins wins in program history. None of those programs were demonstrably better historically than Marquette is now.

I'll give you that it's not likely, but if Shaka is here for 10 years, Al is the only person he should be looking up at. And this is someone who's already had the big job at Texas (whose fans think they are a blue blood by right, not results) so it's entirely possible that living close to where he grew up might appeal to him more than just chasing the next gig.

It would take an incredible run. Doing something like what Buzz did, but for twice as long and building upon that level of success. But it's far from impossible.
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wadesworld

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2022, 03:17:10 PM »
This is simply silly. It's not likely, but it isn't less than 1% and it wouldn't take a miracle and the days of coaches staying beyond 10 years at programs isn't over. Mark Few took over a Gonzaga program that was less than what Marquette is now and has been there more than 20 years. Scott Drew is going on 20 years at Baylor, and they were in a far worse state when he took over than what Shaka. Tony Bennett has been at Virginia more than a decade, they were a lesser program than ours when he got there.

Leonard Hamilton at FSU, Mike Brey at Notre Dame, Fran McCaffrey at Iowa, Matt Painter at Purdue, Dana Altman at Oregon, Greg McDermott at Creighton, Ed Cooley at Providence, all have more than 10 years at their current job, all are either first or second all time in coaching wins wins in program history. None of those programs were demonstrably better historically than Marquette is now.

I'll give you that it's not likely, but if Shaka is here for 10 years, Al is the only person he should be looking up at. And this is someone who's already had the big job at Texas (whose fans think they are a blue blood by right, not results) so it's entirely possible that living close to where he grew up might appeal to him more than just chasing the next gig.

It would take an incredible run. Doing something like what Buzz did, but for twice as long and building upon that level of success. But it's far from impossible.

The idea that coaches don’t stay for 10 years was a dumb comment. But I’d agree it’s a less than 1% chance MU ever becomes a blue blood. Gonzaga just happened to beat the less than 1% odds. Because they hit the lottery doesn’t make better programs’ chances any higher. And with all the success Few has had, Gonzaga STILL isn’t a blue blood. They have 0 titles.

MU has been to a single Final Four in nearly half a century. We are very far away from a blue blood.

Not to mention, NIL is going to change the landscape, plus there’s a higher chance that there become football super conferences that break away from the NCAA before Marquette has a chance to make their 5+ Final Fours and win their 2+ national titles they’d need to become a blue blood.

Is it a 0.00% chance it happens? No. Is it above a 1% chance? To me, also no.
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brewcity77

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2022, 03:59:36 PM »
The idea that coaches don’t stay for 10 years was a dumb comment. But I’d agree it’s a less than 1% chance MU ever becomes a blue blood. Gonzaga just happened to beat the less than 1% odds. Because they hit the lottery doesn’t make better programs’ chances any higher. And with all the success Few has had, Gonzaga STILL isn’t a blue blood. They have 0 titles.

MU has been to a single Final Four in nearly half a century. We are very far away from a blue blood.

I think getting to the new blood type status is more likely and plausible, but with a title in hand, all it takes is one championship and we're in pretty rare company.

Not to mention, NIL is going to change the landscape, plus there’s a higher chance that there become football super conferences that break away from the NCAA before Marquette has a chance to make their 5+ Final Fours and win their 2+ national titles they’d need to become a blue blood.

Is it a 0.00% chance it happens? No. Is it above a 1% chance? To me, also no.

First, I don't think NIL does change the landscape much. Everyone says that, but I don't buy it. The blue bloods will continue to be blue bloods. Bigger programs will poach players from smaller programs. Guys will move up, more will move down. Ultimately, though, it really won't change all that much. I mean, Miami apparently splurged on transfers and I don't hear anyone picking them for the top-10. Hell, they aren't even sniffing the top-25.

And I think the breakaway simply doesn't make sense. There aren't enough football super conference programs to put out a viable product that doesn't include other leagues. Eliminate or severely restrict auto-bids? Sure. Vacuum up most of the at-large bids? Sure again. But they aren't creating a league of 40-60 teams and running a 24-32 team playoff. And they aren't trimming back to even 64 teams and just having them play each other. No one wants the inevitable 3-28 Northwestern or 5-26 Oregon State that would come out of that.

The Big East isn't going anywhere unless the schools representing the league fold. I find it far, far more likely that Marquette and the rest of the Big East goes belly up and shutters all the universities than the Big East is left out of whatever the college basketball playoff looks like in 2032 and beyond. The only people proposing anything remotely like that are Chicken Littles with no rationalization of how it would happen. That isn't being talked about by Sankey or media. It's just some "sky is falling" paranoia being made up by fans who fear change.
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The Equalizer

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Re: Blue Blood
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2022, 08:31:20 PM »
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/page/earlytop25062822/duke-kansas-rise-way-too-early-top-25-men-college-basketball-rankings-2022-23


Quote from: brewcity77 link=topic=63559.msg1466883#msg1466883 date=
And I think the breakaway simply doesn't make sense. There aren't enough football super conference programs to put out a viable product that doesn't include other leagues. Eliminate or severely restrict auto-bids? Sure. Vacuum up most of the at-large bids? Sure again. But they aren't creating a league of 40-60 teams and running a 24-32 team playoff. And they aren't trimming back to even 64 teams and just having them play each other. No one wants the inevitable 3-28 Northwestern or 5-26 Oregon State that would come out of that.

You're right about a 40-60 team breakaway.

However, an FBS breakaway would give you a 130 team organization that addresses every single one of your concerns, and could generate a significant revenue bump that wouldn't require waiting until 2033.

Plus it would have the advantage of eliminating revenue sharing with 950 other D1, D2, and D3 teams, plus a good portion of the NCAA overhead.  An FBS organization could replicate the function of the NCAA for a fraction of what the NCAA spends because they'd be doing it for a fraction of the number of teams. 

Quote from: brewcity77 link=topic=63559.msg1466883#msg1466883 date=
The Big East isn't going anywhere unless the schools representing the league fold. I find it far, far more likely that Marquette and the rest of the Big East goes belly up and shutters all the universities than the Big East is left out of whatever the college basketball playoff looks like in 2032 and beyond.

Assume an FBS split (not your 40 to 60 team straw man).

At that point, what would the FBS have to gain by including the Big East?  It's the same argument people here make about bringing St. Louis or Dayton to the Big East itself. Would the new teams increase revenue enough to offset the payouts to those teams? 

The Big East consists of mostly small schools, and TV ratings are relatively smaller. Would the increased ratings drive revenue growth in excess of what you have to pay the Big East teams? 

Quote from: brewcity77 link=topic=63559.msg1466883#msg1466883 date=
The only people proposing anything remotely like that are Chicken Littles with no rationalization of how it would happen. That isn't being talked about by Sankey or media. It's just some "sky is falling" paranoia being made up by fans who fear change.

The rationalization is simply this:
If the FBS as a group left the NCAA, they could negotiate a new basketball tournament television contract beginning as soon as 2024. It's been said that such a contract could be worth as much as $1.5 billion to $2 billion per year, whereas the NCAA is locked into a contract that gave them only $870 million for 2022, with minimal increases out to 2032.

9 years (2023 to 2032) of an incremental $630 million to $1.13 billion annually ain't chump change and is more than enough to at least consider the viability.

Then figure that the larger revenue pool would then be split across 130 schools, and eliminate 220 D1, 303 D2, and 437 D3 schools from sharing in the revenue. 

It takes an incredibly huge amount of naivete to even think that Sankey, the media, or anyone else involved in the process would say a word publicly about any split until iron-clad contracts are finalized. They're certainly not going to tip their hand and give the NCAA and the 950 teams left behind time to fight the move.

 

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