Happy July 4th Y'all

[Pakuni]

Sounds like we've moved on from video games and onto anti-depressants and wees causing mass shootings.  Tough day for the door industry, too.

Also, women.
https://news.yahoo.com/tucker-carlson-points-finger-women-045131296.html

[Uncle Rico]

Also, women.
https://news.yahoo.com/tucker-carlson-points-finger-women-045131296.html

Of course.  He really projects

[lawdog77]

Just to make sure I understand, you believe life starts at conception but are okay with women murdering their babies if they were conceived through rape/incest?

Well the goal would be that if you were raped, it would be reported immediately, and EC would be used before the embryo implants.

[tower912]

Sounds like we've moved on from video games and onto anti-depressants and wees causing mass shootings.  Tough day for the door industry, too.

And fire escapes.

Yes, if the shooter was willing to act spontaneously, this would have been exponentially worse.    However, he clearly liked to plan his escape route.

[JWags85]

So if people are okay with exceptions until a certain point...but don't believe that life starts at conception....why don't they support all abortion until that certain point?

As I understand it, pro-life's issue with abortion is that it is murdering babies. I can understand that for some people it goes from non-baby to baby at conception, for others it is at various points throughout the pregnancy. But you seem to be saying that there are people who don't believe that life starts at conception but also want to ban all abortion except for specific exceptions (rape/incest etc.). If they don't believe life doesn't begin at conception, why do they want to ban all abortion minus exceptions?

Its not my argument, Im pro-choice to an timeline extent. I'm just adding nuance.  There seems to be this idea with some that anyone pro-life either wants control of women or is some dense, unwavering "life starts at conception, hard stop".

There are some who think it starts somewhere between conception and a lump of cells becoming a fetus and believe at that point, all pregnancies should progress, save for some extreme examples.

[forgetful]

Well the goal would be that if you were raped, it would be reported immediately, and EC would be used before the embryo implants.

Do you know how many rapes go unreported due to:

1. Embarrassment.
2. Fear of being attacked as part of the problem, not the victim.
3. Fear of not being believed.
4. Fear of being attacked as ruining the "boy/man/girl/woman's" life.
5. For the case of children, not even understanding what happened or who to tell.
6. General emotional and physical trauma.

And a long list of other reasons and reasonable fears.

Your goal is quite frankly, unreasonable.

[Hards Alumni]

Sounds like Madison/Middleton literally dodged a bullet. Cops say the Highland Park shooter happened upon a celebration after driving up there and thought about opening fire, but decided against it because he hadn't done any planning for it.
Phew.

Yup.  Good thing the police found him before he had the opportunity to create a sequel.

[dgies9156]

After watching the Highland Park shooting mess, there's a whole group of questions that needs answering as we move forward. In no particular order, they are:

1) What is the justification for allowing civilian ownership of high-powered assault weapons? I don't get what we need these weapons in civilian hands for. If some hunter out there can explain what we hunt for with assault rifles, I'm all ears. We ban very dangerous weapons such as explosives, hand grenades, nuclear bombs, from private ownership, so why not high-powered assault rifles?

2. In the "what was he thinking category," Why would a father whose son has shown known emotional issues sponsor the son's FOID application? I'm all ears on this one.

3, In Illinois, billions are wasted on everything from consultants, to cost overruns, to gold plated pensions to patronage employees. If Indiana can do it for $1.00, Illinois will spend $10 on the same thing. So, Why wasn't the State Police FOID Database Upgraded? Apparently, Highland Park reported the disturbances caused by Robert Crimo III to State Police but evidently, there was no centralized database that was easily accessible for the State Police to review Mr. Crimo's fitness for gun ownership.

With the Exception of Item 1 (which is sorely needed), the laws are on the books. Not sure any gun law can resolve Item 2 without Item 3.  And I guess Item 3 never happened because there wasn't enough juice in it to excite a corrupt Chicago politician!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Its not my argument, Im pro-choice to an timeline extent. I'm just adding nuance.  There seems to be this idea with some that anyone pro-life either wants control of women or is some dense, unwavering "life starts at conception, hard stop".

There are some who think it starts somewhere between conception and a lump of cells becoming a fetus and believe at that point, all pregnancies should progress, save for some extreme examples.

I honestly still don't get it.  Whether you believe life starts at conception, 5 weeks,  12 weeks, etc, why are you okay with exceptions for rape/incest after the point you believe it is alive? Why would someone else harming the mother in the past justify the mother murdering an innocent life? Pro choice people I get,  they don't believe it is alive,  but pro life people say it is a human life which would make abortion murder.

Again, not saying there shouldn't be exceptions, just don't understand the logic being used

[JWags85]

I can't even fathom if this guy had put more thought into it, what else he could have done. Once he got out of HP undetected and into a car, essentially on the move and unknown as a person of interest, he was still heavily armed.

That's whats even more chilling for me.  Its not like "oh dude snapped and went wild".  He had it planned acutely and witheld from a further spree killing cause he didn't have it properly planned out.  No insanity defense, temporary or otherwise.  Just a supremely twisted and calculating individual.

[MuggsyB]

That's whats even more chilling for me.  Its not like "oh dude snapped and went wild".  He had it planned acutely and witheld from a further spree killing cause he didn't have it properly planned out.  No insanity defense, temporary or otherwise.  Just a supremely twisted and calculating individual.

Wow....just wow.  Chilling is exactly right.

[Pakuni]

3, In Illinois, billions are wasted on everything from consultants, to cost overruns, to gold plated pensions to patronage employees. If Indiana can do it for $1.00, Illinois will spend $10 on the same thing. So, Why wasn't the State Police FOID Database Upgraded? Apparently, Highland Park reported the disturbances caused by Robert Crimo III to State Police but evidently, there was no centralized database that was easily accessible for the State Police to review Mr. Crimo's fitness for gun ownership.

With the Exception of Item 1 (which is sorely needed), the laws are on the books. Not sure any gun law can resolve Item 2 without Item 3.  And I guess Item 3 never happened because there wasn't enough juice in it to excite a corrupt Chicago politician!

Just to clarify this, the reason the disturbance wasn't noted in the FOID database is because Crimo neither had nor was seeking a FOID card at the time, and no police agency or family member filed a "red flag" complaint against him.
Sadly for the narrative, but this isn't the fault of those gosh darn Chicago politicians or lazy government workers.

[MuggsyB]

I honestly still don't get it.  Whether you believe life starts at conception, 5 weeks,  12 weeks, etc, why are you okay with exceptions for rape/incest after the point you believe it is alive? Why would someone else harming the mother in the past justify the mother murdering an innocent life? Pro choice people I get,  they don't believe it is alive,  but pro life people say it is a human life which would make abortion murder.

Again, not saying there shouldn't be exceptions, just don't understand the logic being used

It's an interesting point and imo a fair argument and discussion.  Regardless I think the vast majority believe in a 15 week limit. 

Your point does make me think about our other most polarizing issue.  Many people (probably most) are for banning assault style weapons but not for a blanket gun ban.  Whether it be for 2nd Amendment constitutional issues or what have you..  Isn't this logically problematic when hand guns are responsible for far more homicides and carnage? 

[brewcity77]

Many people (probably most) are for banning assault style weapons but not for a blanket gun ban.  Whether it be for 2nd Amendment constitutional issues or what have you..  Isn't this logically problematic when hand guns are responsible for far more homicides and carnage?

Agreed. That's why I'm in favor of a full ban. The only exception would be for trained, organized, and clearly well-regulated militias. Not hunting, nor self-defense, nor collecting, nor any other reason not expressed in the 2nd Amendment.

It's interesting how textualism only applies when it comes to restricting human rights but not when it comes to limiting our ability to rapidly kill each other.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Your point does make me think about our other most polarizing issue.  Many people (probably most) are for banning assault style weapons but not for a blanket gun ban.  Whether it be for 2nd Amendment constitutional issues or what have you..  Isn't this logically problematic when hand guns are responsible for far more homicides and carnage?

I would say no. There are far more handguns in circulation than there are AR-15s and their ilk. My guess is that the homicide per gun is much higher for AR-15s than it is for handguns. Certainly than amount of deaths per shooting is much higher for AR-15s than it is for handguns.

While both handgun violence and mass shootings are examples of gun violence, and there are certainly mass shootings that use handguns, they are two different flavors of gun violence with different causes and different needed remedies.

I would also say that I don't really see a comparison between the gun responsibility debate and the abortion debate. We all agree that gun violence is bad but disagree on how to solve it. We don't agree on whether or not abortion is bad.

[Pakuni]

It's an interesting point and imo a fair argument and discussion.  Regardless I think the vast majority believe in a 15 week limit. 

Your point does make me think about our other most polarizing issue.  Many people (probably most) are for banning assault style weapons but not for a blanket gun ban.  Whether it be for 2nd Amendment constitutional issues or what have you..  Isn't this logically problematic when hand guns are responsible for far more homicides and carnage?

Only if you insist on letting perfect be the enemy of good.
It is true that no law or new regulation is going to prevent all gun violence. But that's a terrible justification for (once again) doing nothing. An assault weapons ban won't stop someone from wanting to shoot up their local parade/school/grocery store, but I'd much rather see that person armed with a 9mm handgun or a five-shot hunting rifle than an AR-15. Wouldn't you?

[dgies9156]

Just to clarify this, the reason the disturbance wasn't noted in the FOID database is because Crimo neither had nor was seeking a FOID card at the time, and no police agency or family member filed a "red flag" complaint against him.
Sadly for the narrative, but this isn't the fault of those gosh darn Chicago politicians or lazy government workers.

Brother Pakuni:

From what Lake County Major Crimes said yesterday, HP did file an incident report with the Illinois State Police. Is it a true "Red Flag Report? Maybe not. But the ISP can manage a database that has every traffic ticket I have received since 1972. They ought to be able to somehow handle this.

They ought to be able to take an incident report that is filed by a reputable police organization, digitize it for 10 years or whatever and if a FOID comes in, be able to cross match the name on the FOID with the database.

I don't blame the ISP. I blame the lawmakers and Illinois State Administration for the issue. If the ISP has fault, it's for not pushing this matter hard enough.

As for Brother TAMU's point, look I'd like to see much tougher controls on handguns too. I live in a state where concealed carry permits are about as easy to get as water and somehow our goofy state believes Stand Your Ground is a good idea! But you're not going to sit on top of a building with a handgun, fire off 70 rounds and kill eight people. There are some reasons why certain people should have handguns. I know of NO legitimate reason why any civilian should have a high powered assault rifle.

And, for the record, I'm not woke! I'm a moderate Republican who likes to think I have a certain amount of political common sense.

[Uncle Rico]

Would you shoot your grandchildren to protect your grandchildren?

[Hards Alumni]

Brother Pakuni:

From what Lake County Major Crimes said yesterday, HP did file an incident report with the Illinois State Police. Is it a true "Red Flag Report? Maybe not. But the ISP can manage a database that has every traffic ticket I have received since 1972. They ought to be able to somehow handle this.

They ought to be able to take an incident report that is filed by a reputable police organization, digitize it for 10 years or whatever and if a FOID comes in, be able to cross match the name on the FOID with the database.

I don't blame the ISP. I blame the lawmakers and Illinois State Administration for the issue. If the ISP has fault, it's for not pushing this matter hard enough.

As for Brother TAMU's point, look I'd like to see much tougher controls on handguns too. I live in a state where concealed carry permits are about as easy to get as water and somehow our goofy state believes Stand Your Ground is a good idea! But you're not going to sit on top of a building with a handgun, fire off 70 rounds and kill eight people. There are some reasons why certain people should have handguns. I know of NO legitimate reason why any civilian should have a high powered assault rifle.

And, for the record, I'm not woke! I'm a moderate Republican who likes to think I have a certain amount of political common sense.

That's too bad.  It's good to be woke.  Where people often go wrong is with woke scolding.

[MuggsyB]

Only if you insist on letting perfect be the enemy of good.
It is true that no law or new regulation is going to prevent all gun violence. But that's a terrible justification for (once again) doing nothing. An assault weapons ban won't stop someone from wanting to shoot up their local parade/school/grocery store, but I'd much rather see that person armed with a 9mm handgun or a five-shot hunting rifle than an AR-15. Wouldn't you?

His father is an accessory to mass murderer.  I personally would rather see someone armed with a handgun vs a AR-15  but this is a comprehensive conversation.  It was an awful holiday weekend for gun violence.

[Hards Alumni]

His father is an accessory to mass murderer.  I personally would rather see someone armed with a handgun vs a AR-15  but this is a comprehensive conversation.  It was an awful holiday weekend for gun violence.

T.I.A.

[Jockey]

His father is an accessory to mass murderer.  I personally would rather see someone armed with a handgun vs a AR-15  but this is a comprehensive conversation.  It was an awful holiday weekend for gun violence.

Then stop voting for the guys that always want more guns, more guns. Otherwise you are part of the problem.

[Lennys Tap]

Just to make sure I understand, you believe life starts at conception but are okay with women murdering their babies if they were conceived through rape/incest?

Of course life begins at conception. That's a scientific fact. When that life should be protected. I don't recall ever calling abortion "murder" but life/health of the mother is mitigating no matter what you call.

When do you think the life deserves protection - only after birth?

[The Sultan]

Nm

[MuggsyB]

Then stop voting for the guys that always want more guns, more guns. Otherwise you are part of the problem.

So anyone who has voted for a Republican, ever, is "part of the problem".  Got it.  That's a real rational take.