Just making sure I've got my MU buckets Mount Rushmore's right

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Both were exceptional, but it's hard to argue with the team results Jae was a part of. Gotta give Jae the nod.

This makes no sense to me at all.  If anything, that makes Markus' accomplishments even more noteworthy.

[panda]

This makes no sense to me at all.  If anything, that makes Markus' accomplishments even more noteworthy.

Playing on a great team vs. a mediocre team makes a big difference in my book when comparing players.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Playing on a great team vs. a mediocre team makes a big difference in my book when comparing players.

So because they have better teammates and coaches, they should be graded higher?  That makes no sense.

Regardless, Markus was a better player for more seasons than Jae was.  Regardless of team accomplishments, that is simply the case.

[panda]

So because they have better teammates and coaches, they should be graded higher?  That makes no sense.

Regardless, Markus was a better player for more seasons than Jae was.  Regardless of team accomplishments, that is simply the case.

Or did they improve their teammates and make their coach look better because they're so good ? Markus great individual player but never elevated his teammates play. Jae was a complete player. Lock down defender, defended multiple positions, incredible on the glass, never turned the ball over and shot the ball well.

[brewcity77]

Markus played with one player that has thus far gone on to play in the NBA in Sam Hauser. And honestly, there probably isn't anyone else from those teams that will replicate that feat.

Jae played with Buycks, Blue, DJO, Jimmy Butler, and Jamil Wilson. It's a lot easier to win when you are surrounded by NBA talent.

Not only that, but Howard's best year both in terms of production and renown was his senior year with no NBA players alongside him. If the team doesn't fall apart around him he probably wins NPOY (and he was amazing while the rest of them were floundering) and still managed to be our only consensus First Team All-American since Wade.

The lack of NCAA success would keep him off the Rushmore, but Howard is clearly the best we've had since Wade. And I loved Jae.

[panda]

Markus played with one player that has thus far gone on to play in the NBA in Sam Hauser. And honestly, there probably isn't anyone else from those teams that will replicate that feat.

Jae played with Buycks, Blue, DJO, Jimmy Butler, and Jamil Wilson. It's a lot easier to win when you are surrounded by NBA talent.

Not only that, but Howard's best year both in terms of production and renown was his senior year with no NBA players alongside him. If the team doesn't fall apart around him he probably wins NPOY (and he was amazing while the rest of them were floundering) and still managed to be our only consensus First Team All-American since Wade.

The lack of NCAA success would keep him off the Rushmore, but Howard is clearly the best we've had since Wade. And I loved Jae.

So if Markus played with better talent, would the high metrics both of you are touting still be as high as they are? He wouldn’t have his 40 something usage for sure. Probably would be much more similar to Jae’s senior year numbers.

Also Jae was a true two way player. Markus turned from a turnstile to a serviceable defender, but never remotely on the level of Jae.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

So if Markus played with better talent, would the high metrics both of you are touting still be as high as they are? He wouldn’t have his 40 something usage for sure. Probably would be much more similar to Jae’s senior year numbers.

Also Jae was a true two way player. Markus turned from a turnstile to a serviceable defender, but never remotely on the level of Jae.

Better teammates likely means his total numbers go down but his efficiency numbers go up.

It's close for me between Howard and Jae but I think I give the nod to Howard slightly. The difference for me was that Howard had two years of dominance, whereas Jae had a very good (but not close to dominant) junior year and a dominate senior year.

[Hards Alumni]

Five players from Jae's team played in the NBA, including an all-star. 
One player from Marcus' teams has ever played in the NBA, and its Sam Hauser.

Jae was damn good, but it's not even close who the better college player is.  No player in Marquette history put his team on his back more than Markus Howard.

[panda]

Better teammates likely means his total numbers go down but his efficiency numbers go up.

It's close for me between Howard and Jae but I think I give the nod to Howard slightly. The difference for me was that Howard had two years of dominance, whereas Jae had a very good (but not close to dominant) junior year and a dominate senior year.

Yep - That's my one knock on Jae. Markus was consistently great for four years, while Jae had a good year 1 and incredible year 2. I'm still giving the nod to Jae though. More of a complete player.

[dgies9156]

This is a stupid argument.  Markus didn't choose his teammates or his coach.

OK fine.

Markus, Wojo, Jae and Jimmy for our Mt. Rushmore.

Talk about low expectations

[Hards Alumni]

OK fine.

Markus, Wojo, Jae and Jimmy for our Mt. Rushmore.

Talk about low expectations

???????????????????????

[1SE]

Five players from Jae's team played in the NBA, including an all-star. 
One player from Marcus' teams has ever played in the NBA, and its Sam Hauser.

Jae was damn good, but it's not even close who the better college player is.  No player in Marquette history put his team on his back more than Markus Howard.

Yeah, I don't get how a lack of NCAA success is a knock on Markus as an individual player- especially from the "crap shoot" crowd. Wojo assembled mediocre talent and coaching around him. Ironically, Markus is probably single handedly responsible for the number if years wojo got.

Markus was a generational talent and the best pure scorer to play at Marquette in 40 years, if not ever. The fact that he did what he did is all the more impressive because of the players around him. Teams could key on him completely and he'd still put 50 in.

If Markus isn't on your "college only" MU rushmore I deeply question your basketball  knowledge.

[panda]

Yeah, I don't get how a lack of NCAA success is a knock on Markus as an individual player- especially from the "crap shoot" crowd. Wojo assembled mediocre talent and coaching around him. Ironically, Markus is probably single handedly responsible for the number if years wojo got.

Markus was a generational talent and the best pure scorer to play at Marquette in 40 years, if not ever. The fact that he did what he did is all the more impressive because of the players around him. Teams could key on him completely and he'd still put 50 in.

If Markus isn't on your "college only" MU rushmore I deeply question your basketball  knowledge.

He’s certainly on mine. He’s just not ahead of Jae for me.

[GoldenEagles03]

Jae Crowder played both offense and defense.

Markus was fine with the other team scoring because it meant he got the ball back in his hands to shoot again.

I like Markus but Crowder was more complete.

Crowder has a 25 point 17 rebound performance in round 1 of the NCAA Tournament IN A WIN.  Then followed it up with 17 points and 13 rebounds in another win. He was a part of 4 NCAA tournament wins in 2 years with a Big East POY, All America selection, and was drafted.

I'd also take College Jae over College Markus if we were building a team to win. Jae in a landslide IMO.

[wadesworld]

Jae Crowder played both offense and defense.

Markus was fine with the other team scoring because it meant he got the ball back in his hands to shoot again.

I like Markus but Crowder was more complete.

Crowder has a 25 point 17 rebound performance in round 1 of the NCAA Tournament IN A WIN.  Then followed it up with 17 points and 13 rebounds in another win. He was a part of 4 NCAA tournament wins in 2 years with a Big East POY, All America selection, and was drafted.

I'd also take College Jae over College Markus if we were building a team to win. Jae in a landslide IMO.

Lol.

[JWags85]

In 30 years sinc Glenn Robinson did it at Purdue, the nation’s leading score has played in a major conference just 4 times. One was Trae Young, another was Doug McDermott, both lottery picks.  The third was Erick Green who played on a truly terrible VT team and was pretty average until that year.  The other is Markus.  That’s how rare it is to score that many points against top tier competition every night.

When it came to pure shooting/scoring the basketball, Markus was better at than singular skill than any other Marquette player was at a singular skill ever, except maybe Mac and shot blocking.

I can’t believe we still undersell what an absolute phenom and talent he was.  Love Jae, but there are plenty of very good players  like him. And similar players will come through Marquette again.  We likely never see another Markus

[GoldenEagles03]

In 30 years sinc Glenn Robinson did it at Purdue, the nation’s leading score has played in a major conference just 4 times. One was Trae Young, another was Doug McDermott, both lottery picks.  The third was Erick Green who played on a truly terrible VT team and was pretty average until that year.  The other is Markus.  That’s how rare it is to score that many points against top tier competition every night.

When it came to pure shooting/scoring the basketball, Markus was better at than singular skill than any other Marquette player was at a singular skill ever, except maybe Mac and shot blocking.

I can’t believe we still undersell what an absolute phenom and talent he was.  Love Jae, but there are plenty of very good players  like him. And similar players will come through Marquette again.  We likely never see another Markus

Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.

In Rowsey's Senior season the stat lines were the following.

Rowsey - 20.5 PPG, 41.5% 3PT, 4.8 AST
Howard- 20.4 PPG, 40.4% 3PT, 2.8 AST

What helped Markus rack up numbers is when the Hauser's left Markus was the only guy capable of creating his own shot half the time.  His volume increased.

[Jockey]

Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.

#clueless

[JWags85]

Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.

In Rowsey's Senior season the stat lines were the following.

Rowsey - 20.5 PPG, 41.5% 3PT, 4.8 AST
Howard- 20.4 PPG, 40.4% 3PT, 2.8 AST

What helped Markus rack up numbers is when the Hauser's left Markus was the only guy capable of creating his own shot half the time.  His volume increased.

…except that the next year, Howard’s Jr year, the Hausers were still there and he averaged 25 PPG on 40% 3P shooting and 4 APG, so….

With the Hausers gone he only shot 2 more FGA per game and his 3P% actually increased.

Rowsey was a great player, a great shooter, but he didn’t have the step back or shot creating craftiness that Markus had to develop. But to deem him and Markus the same level of player is just incorrect and ignores Markus’ exceptional final 2 years

[GoldenEagles03]

…except that the next year, Howard’s Jr year, the Hausers were still there and he averaged 25 PPG on 40% 3P shooting and 4 APG, so….

With the Hausers gone he only shot 2 more FGA per game and his 3P% actually increased.

Rowsey was a great player, a great shooter, but he didn’t have the step back or shot creating craftiness that Markus had to develop. But to deem him and Markus the same level of player is just incorrect and ignores Markus’ exceptional final 2 years

Their numbers are actually remarkably similar.  There is absolutely no denying that. Regardless of how they got it done, it is still true.

Howard career 42.7% from 3
Rowsey 42.6% from 3 with MU

Howard career 3.1 APG
Rowsey 3.6 APG with MU

Howard career 88.6% FT
Rowsey 91% FT with MU

Howard career PER 25.3
Rowsey at MU 23.5

Howard career usage 34.2%
Rowsey usage at MU 28%

Their results were highly similar from similar spots on the court. Howard's volume was just much higher on average.

[GoldenEagles03]

Their numbers are actually remarkably similar.  There is absolutely no denying that. Regardless of how they got it done, it is still true.

Howard career 42.7% from 3
Rowsey 42.6% from 3 with MU

Howard career 3.1 APG
Rowsey 3.6 APG with MU

Howard career 88.6% FT
Rowsey 91% FT with MU

Howard career PER 25.3
Rowsey at MU 23.5

Howard career usage 34.2%
Rowsey usage at MU 28%

Their results were highly similar from similar spots on the court. Howard's volume was just much higher on average.

This is in response to someone earlier saying it is likely we never see another Markus.  I was just noting that we had another Markus with Markus.

The reason it is likely we won't see another Markus is because Shaka isn't going to build a roster around one shot taker.  Wojo constructed a roster built around Markus that allowed him to be able to hoist as many shots as possible.  Entertaining at times, but not a winning formula.

If we ever see a scenario like that again around here we probably aren't in a good place as a program.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.

I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?

[1SE]

Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.

I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?

And one of two two-time MU All-Americans.

And the only MU All-American since 1980 not named Dwayne Wade.

But hey, he's just a rich man's Rowsey who was a rich man's Carlino. Carlino and Markus basically the same player.

[MU82]

It is OK to really appreciate how good Markus was, and to have defended him numerous times from the far too many Markus-haters on this site, and to also not include him on one's Marquette Mount Olympus Rushmore (d'oh!), right?

Because that's where I am.

[brewcity77]

Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.

I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?

Yup.

Markus' defense improved by leaps and bounds by the time he got to his senior year. He went from a turnstile to a guy you could reliably put on the opponent's second guard. I think people also undersell just how hard Markus had to WORK to get those open looks. I don't remember any player ever putting more mileage per game on their legs for Marquette than Markus did. You want to talk about off-the-ball movement, Markus wasn't just elite, he was universally heavenly singularly Elite with a capital E.

Rowsey was a good offensive player and a great shooter, but he benefitted significantly from being surrounded by Sam and Markus. From his All-American junior year to his All-American senior year, Markus lost his two most efficient scoring teammates, had to subsequently significantly increase his usage, and still managed to improve his 3PFG% and Offensive Rating while being an even bigger focus of defenses. Do people not realize how hard that is to do?

It sucks that his coach couldn't make second half adjustments against South Carolina and that he had his team woefully unprepared for Ja Morant. It sucks that Markus lost his shot at a senior year NCAA Tournament. But in Marquette's history, we have exactly TWO players who were consensus two-time All-Americans. Butch Lee and Markus Howard. Since the 1970s, we have exactly TWO players who earned first-team All-American, Dwyane Wade and Markus Howard. If he's not on your Mount Rushmore, I get it. Tourney wins always have outsized importance when it comes to these things. But if you are making a Mount Rushmore of the last 40 years, there are only two players who MUST be on that list, and Markus Howard is one of them. That is not something that is open for debate. Since Butch Lee left, Howard is ahead of Crowder, ahead of Butler, ahead of McNeil and Matthews and McIlvaine and Novak and Diener and anyone else not named Dwyane Wade.

And comparing Howard, a TWO-TIME ALL-AMERICAN to Rowsey, a one-time Big East Honorable Mention (behind second-team Big East Howard that same year) is the height of ridiculousness.