MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Eye on March 26, 2022, 02:44:15 PM
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Being it came up while watching the St Peters game last night with a group of pretty good sports fans, just making sure I've got my MU basketball Mount Rushmore's right.
College careers only - McGuire, Ellis, Lee, Wade
Post-MU basketball careers - Wade, Butler, Lucas, Rivers over Kojis if you include the coaching career, Kojis probably the better NBA career, but also in a different era, too.
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Being it came up while watching the St Peters game last night with a group of pretty good sports fans, just making sure I've got my MU basketball Mount Rushmore's right.
College careers only - McGuire, Ellis, Lee, Wade
Post-MU basketball careers - Wade, Butler, Lucas, Rivers over Kojis if you include the coaching career, Kojis probably the better NBA career, but also in a different era, too.
I think both lists are right on. I'm sure others will disagree.
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Being it came up while watching the St Peters game last night with a group of pretty good sports fans, just making sure I've got my MU basketball Mount Rushmore's right.
College careers only - McGuire, Ellis, Lee, Wade
Post-MU basketball careers - Wade, Butler, Lucas, Rivers over Kojis if you include the coaching career, Kojis probably the better NBA career, but also in a different era, too.
I put Meminger ahead of Lee. Ellis over Chones ONLY because he played longer but Jimmy was the better player.
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Being it came up while watching the St Peters game last night with a group of pretty good sports fans, just making sure I've got my MU basketball Mount Rushmore's right.
College careers only - McGuire, Ellis, Lee, Wade
Post-MU basketball careers - Wade, Butler, Lucas, Rivers over Kojis if you include the coaching career, Kojis probably the better NBA career, but also in a different era, too.
I’ve been told Butler is a fake tough guy, a front runner, and solely a complementary player. Likely should be behind Diener, Buycks, and Vander as a pro.
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I put Meminger ahead of Lee. Ellis over Chones ONLY because he played longer but Jimmy was the better player.
Not for nothing, but Butch Lee was the 1977 NCAA tournament MOP and the Naismith NCAA player of the year in 1978. Only McGuire belongs above him, IMHO.
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Not for nothing, but Butch Lee was the 1977 NCAA tournament MOP and the Naismith NCAA player of the year in 1978. Only McGuire belongs above him, IMHO.
Was Allie that good?
;)
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Should Chones be on the post MU-basketball career list over Kojis/Rivers?
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Should Chones be on the post MU-basketball career list over Kojis/Rivers?
Definitely ahead of Doc. Some might say that Wes Matthews should rank ahead of Doc, as well.
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Doc has more NBA win shares and win shares per 48 than either Chones or Matthews. Doc also is the only one of the three to make an All Star Game.
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Chones ahead of Doc and I can argue George Thompson and possibly Wes over Doc.
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Chones ahead of Doc and I can argue George Thompson and possibly Wes over Doc.
Good call, Goose.
I forgot about George. He is definitely on the college Mt. Rushmore. Could be the #1 all-timer at MU. Hopefully, you were lucky enough to watch him play.
Weird quirk, but the last time I saw him live, he was only the 3rd best player on the floor.
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Jockey
Big fan of George back in the day, both MU and pro game.
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I would put George above Butch. Not only was George as good of a player as Butch, but George was the foundation upon which all that followed, was built.
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Jerome Whitehead, if he didn't make that last bucket in semi final game there would be no championship banner to hang, period; and that is enough to be on Mount Rushmore. Hell, even the real Mount Rushmore.
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One above the rest.
http://www.espn.com/classic/s/2001/0126/1041837.html
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Your post reminded me of watching games at the old Arena. Before the game, you could literally go to the lower level and stand on the baseline watching warmups.
My fave was when the Bucks were playing the 76ers and of course I was down on the baseline to watch Dr. J. My wife (GF at the time) always snapped pictures and then we'd hope she got a good shot. Well, she got a perfect shot of me & Dr. J - He was right near the baseline to grab a bouncing ball and my wife got the pic just as he was turning. It looks like he is reaching out and handing the ball to me.
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I’m carving out more rock to include George Thompson and Earl Tatum.
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I would put George above Butch. Not only was George as good of a player as Butch, but George was the foundation upon which all that followed, was built.
I'm not trying to disrespect George Thompson, truly, but Butch Lee was a 2x AA (not honorable mention) and NPOY and also led Marquette to a title and was a top 10 draft pick. Wade was in the discussion for NPOY, a first team AA, and carried the team to a F4. They were both among the 2-3 best players in college basketball their final years. Thompson never was.
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I mean, Jae has quietly had a tremendous NBA career.
I don’t think it’s Mount Rushmore material, but surely he could give Doc a run for his money.
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Wags
Butch is on the list.
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Being it came up while watching the St Peters game last night with a group of pretty good sports fans, just making sure I've got my MU basketball Mount Rushmore's right.
College careers only - McGuire, Ellis, Lee, Wade
Post-MU basketball careers - Wade, Butler, Lucas, Rivers over Kojis if you include the coaching career, Kojis probably the better NBA career, but also in a different era, too.
Much and many more than you list
It all starts with Kojis, followed by Al then Thompson, then Ellis, Butch, Maurice and many more.
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I'm not sure if everyone understands the Mt. Rushmore meme
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If ya run outta room, ya kan start a Stone Mountain thread two, hey?
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I'd listen to any battles for No. 4, but not sure how anybody could carve out a Marquette Mount Rushmore without Al, Butch and D-Wade.
Wags summed up the candidacies of Lee and Wade perfectly, so no need to go further.
For the fourth head ... Thompson, Ellis or Meminger would seem the most likely choices.
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82
IMO, two are slam dunks, Wade and Al. I would have Butch on mine and number four is personal taste.
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You're crazy if Markus isn't on your college only list.
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You're crazy if Markus isn't on your college only list.
Not even remotely close for mine. Zero tourney wins kinda negates that choice.
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The Hausers can open up an ice cream stand outside the mountain.
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You're crazy if Markus isn't on your college only list.
Gag me.
I liked the guy and he was a great representative of MU, but he is our version of Pete Maravich. All flash and no substance.
We didn’t win with Markus, plain and simple. We don’t carve someone on to Mt. Rushmore unless they win. What are you going to do, put Jefferson Davis on the real one?
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Gag me.
I liked the guy and he was a great representative of MU, but he is our version of Pete Maravich. All flash and no substance.
We didn’t win with Markus, plain and simple. We don’t carve someone on to Mt. Rushmore unless they win. What are you going to do, put Jefferson Davis on the real one?
Oh FFS. All flash and no substance?
I’m not putting him on there but gimme a break.
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I'm a huge Markus fan, but you gotta make some noise in the postseason to be on Mount Rushmore IMHO.
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Gag me.
I liked the guy and he was a great representative of MU, but he is our version of Pete Maravich. All flash and no substance.
We didn’t win with Markus, plain and simple. We don’t carve someone on to Mt. Rushmore unless they win. What are you going to do, put Jefferson Davis on the real one?
Pete Maravich was NPOY twice, had some very good years in the NBA, and is in the HOF. He averaged more than 6 rebs and 5 assists at LSU. Not bad for “no substance”. It’s not his fault his Dad was a bad coach and put terrible teams around him.
….kind of like it’s not Markus’s fault his coach didn’t know how to build an offense around him either.
It’s fine he’s not on Rushmore but acting like a first team AA who was very much in discussion for NPOY was all sizzle and no steak is just beyond foolish
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Gag me.
I liked the guy and he was a great representative of MU, but he is our version of Pete Maravich. All flash and no substance.
We didn’t win with Markus, plain and simple. We don’t carve someone on to Mt. Rushmore unless they win. What are you going to do, put Jefferson Davis on the real one?
lmao, he's our best college player since Wade.
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lmao, he's our best college player since Wade.
Weak high-five game, imo
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lmao, he's our best college player since Wade.
100%
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Marquette's four has to be:
1) Al McGuire
2) Butch Lee
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Bo Ellis
I know lots of you were not born when Lee and Ellis played for us, but think about something ... how hard has it been for Marquette to recapture the magic?
Coach McGuire, Butch and Bo brought the magic to us, period. Markus never even sniffed it. The only two guys not on that list who probably should be are Maurice Lucas and George Thompson.
There's been lots of great player before and after, but no one has done what the four have.... including Markus.
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Pete Maravich was NPOY twice, had some very good years in the NBA, and is in the HOF. He averaged more than 6 rebs and 5 assists at LSU. Not bad for “no substance”. It’s not his fault his Dad was a bad coach and put terrible teams around him.
….kind of like it’s not Markus’s fault his coach didn’t know how to build an offense around him either.
It’s fine he’s not on Rushmore but acting like a first team AA who was very much in discussion for NPOY was all sizzle and no steak is just beyond foolish
When Marquette wins national championships for "great players," let me know.
As Coach McGuire once told the then-version of a five-star recruit, "I'm going to win with you or without you... you decide."
A player is no steak until our team wins. Period. End of story.
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Marquette's four has to be:
1) Al McGuire
2) Butch Lee
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Bo Ellis
I know lots of you were not born when Lee and Ellis played for us, but think about something ... how hard has it been for Marquette to recapture the magic?
Coach McGuire, Butch and Bo brought the magic to us, period. Markus never even sniffed it. The only two guys not on that list who probably should be are Maurice Lucas and George Thompson.
There's been lots of great player before and after, but no one has done what the four have.... including Markus.
No one stated he should be there. Your statement that he was “all flash and no substance” is what people are trashing.
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No one stated he should be there. Your statement that he was “all flash and no substance” is what people are trashing.
Sister Clarissa:
I stand by my point. All flash means they didn't win anything.
As Coach Lombardi once said, "Winning isn't everything... it's the only thing."
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Sister Clarissa:
I stand by my point. All flash means they didn't win anything.
As Coach Lombardi once said, "Winning isn't everything... it's the only thing."
Charles Barkley was all flash. So was John Stockton and Steve Nash. No substance to any of them
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Sister Clarissa:
I stand by my point. All flash means they didn't win anything.
As Coach Lombardi once said, "Winning isn't everything... it's the only thing."
So the only reason Wade is on your list is because of the 2003 CUSA regular season championship?
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An argument can certainly be made that Howard has been MU's best individual player in the last 19 seasons. I'd also argue the best two-year stretch for an individual in that span was Crowder, and the second-best two-year stretch was McNeal's last two years.
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So the only reason Wade is on your list is because of the 2003 CUSA regular season championship?
Sister Clarissa:
Marquette managed something under Dwyane Wade we had not accomplished in 26 years -- we reached the Final Four. To do that, we had to knock off Kentucky, Pittsburgh, Missouri and Holy Cross. We were one of the four best teams in College Basketball. DWade was the catalyst that made that happen.
I would note that it has been 19 years since that happened and we haven't been anywhere near the Final Four, other than one year where we got knocked out in the Elite 8.
Now let's look at Markus' record as a leader of our team. Again, a great young man and a good ballplayer. But we never won a single NCAA game during his tenure at Marquette. Ever.
What separates Michael Jordan from Charles Barkley is that Michael made the Bulls better. His talent and his competitive spirit drove people, some of whom were mediocre talent, to push beyond their limits. Same for Butch and Bo. Same for DWade. That's what makes these people steak rather than a flash in the pan.
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Sister Clarissa:
Marquette managed something under Dwyane Wade we had not accomplished in 26 years -- we reached the Final Four. To do that, we had to knock off Kentucky, Pittsburgh, Missouri and Holy Cross. We were one of the four best teams in College Basketball. DWade was the catalyst that made that happen.
I would note that it has been 19 years since that happened and we haven't been anywhere near the Final Four, other than one year where we got knocked out in the Elite 8.
Now let's look at Markus' record as a leader of our team. Again, a great young man and a good ballplayer. But we never won a single NCAA game during his tenure at Marquette. Ever.
What separates Michael Jordan from Charles Barkley is that Michael made the Bulls better. His talent and his competitive spirit drove people, some of whom were mediocre talent, to push beyond their limits. Same for Butch and Bo. Same for DWade. That's what makes these people steak rather than a flash in the pan.
Devil’s Advocate: Barkley made the Suns a lot better but had Jordan’s Bulls in his way
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I'm not trying to disrespect George Thompson, truly, but Butch Lee was a 2x AA (not honorable mention) and NPOY and also led Marquette to a title and was a top 10 draft pick. Wade was in the discussion for NPOY, a first team AA, and carried the team to a F4. They were both among the 2-3 best players in college basketball their final years. Thompson never was.
there’s a reason why Al called George Thompson ‘brute force’. George Thompson is a founding father of Marquette basketball, imo.
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Sister Clarissa:
Marquette managed something under Dwyane Wade we had not accomplished in 26 years -- we reached the Final Four. To do that, we had to knock off Kentucky, Pittsburgh, Missouri and Holy Cross. We were one of the four best teams in College Basketball. DWade was the catalyst that made that happen.
I would note that it has been 19 years since that happened and we haven't been anywhere near the Final Four, other than one year where we got knocked out in the Elite 8.
Now let's look at Markus' record as a leader of our team. Again, a great young man and a good ballplayer. But we never won a single NCAA game during his tenure at Marquette. Ever.
What separates Michael Jordan from Charles Barkley is that Michael made the Bulls better. His talent and his competitive spirit drove people, some of whom were mediocre talent, to push beyond their limits. Same for Butch and Bo. Same for DWade. That's what makes these people steak rather than a flash in the pan.
This is a stupid argument. Markus didn't choose his teammates or his coach.
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lmao, he's our best college player since Wade.
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaa. No he's not.
Jae Crowder.
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Yaaaaaaaaaaaaa. No he's not.
Jae Crowder.
Markus was a better college player than Jae.
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This is a stupid argument. Markus didn't choose his teammates or his coach.
He did choose his coach, but I get your point.
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Markus was a better college player than Jae.
Both were exceptional, but it's hard to argue with the team results Jae was a part of. Gotta give Jae the nod.
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Both were exceptional, but it's hard to argue with the team results Jae was a part of. Gotta give Jae the nod.
This makes no sense to me at all. If anything, that makes Markus' accomplishments even more noteworthy.
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This makes no sense to me at all. If anything, that makes Markus' accomplishments even more noteworthy.
Playing on a great team vs. a mediocre team makes a big difference in my book when comparing players.
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Playing on a great team vs. a mediocre team makes a big difference in my book when comparing players.
So because they have better teammates and coaches, they should be graded higher? That makes no sense.
Regardless, Markus was a better player for more seasons than Jae was. Regardless of team accomplishments, that is simply the case.
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So because they have better teammates and coaches, they should be graded higher? That makes no sense.
Regardless, Markus was a better player for more seasons than Jae was. Regardless of team accomplishments, that is simply the case.
Or did they improve their teammates and make their coach look better because they're so good ? Markus great individual player but never elevated his teammates play. Jae was a complete player. Lock down defender, defended multiple positions, incredible on the glass, never turned the ball over and shot the ball well.
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Markus played with one player that has thus far gone on to play in the NBA in Sam Hauser. And honestly, there probably isn't anyone else from those teams that will replicate that feat.
Jae played with Buycks, Blue, DJO, Jimmy Butler, and Jamil Wilson. It's a lot easier to win when you are surrounded by NBA talent.
Not only that, but Howard's best year both in terms of production and renown was his senior year with no NBA players alongside him. If the team doesn't fall apart around him he probably wins NPOY (and he was amazing while the rest of them were floundering) and still managed to be our only consensus First Team All-American since Wade.
The lack of NCAA success would keep him off the Rushmore, but Howard is clearly the best we've had since Wade. And I loved Jae.
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Markus played with one player that has thus far gone on to play in the NBA in Sam Hauser. And honestly, there probably isn't anyone else from those teams that will replicate that feat.
Jae played with Buycks, Blue, DJO, Jimmy Butler, and Jamil Wilson. It's a lot easier to win when you are surrounded by NBA talent.
Not only that, but Howard's best year both in terms of production and renown was his senior year with no NBA players alongside him. If the team doesn't fall apart around him he probably wins NPOY (and he was amazing while the rest of them were floundering) and still managed to be our only consensus First Team All-American since Wade.
The lack of NCAA success would keep him off the Rushmore, but Howard is clearly the best we've had since Wade. And I loved Jae.
So if Markus played with better talent, would the high metrics both of you are touting still be as high as they are? He wouldn’t have his 40 something usage for sure. Probably would be much more similar to Jae’s senior year numbers.
Also Jae was a true two way player. Markus turned from a turnstile to a serviceable defender, but never remotely on the level of Jae.
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So if Markus played with better talent, would the high metrics both of you are touting still be as high as they are? He wouldn’t have his 40 something usage for sure. Probably would be much more similar to Jae’s senior year numbers.
Also Jae was a true two way player. Markus turned from a turnstile to a serviceable defender, but never remotely on the level of Jae.
Better teammates likely means his total numbers go down but his efficiency numbers go up.
It's close for me between Howard and Jae but I think I give the nod to Howard slightly. The difference for me was that Howard had two years of dominance, whereas Jae had a very good (but not close to dominant) junior year and a dominate senior year.
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Five players from Jae's team played in the NBA, including an all-star.
One player from Marcus' teams has ever played in the NBA, and its Sam Hauser.
Jae was damn good, but it's not even close who the better college player is. No player in Marquette history put his team on his back more than Markus Howard.
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Better teammates likely means his total numbers go down but his efficiency numbers go up.
It's close for me between Howard and Jae but I think I give the nod to Howard slightly. The difference for me was that Howard had two years of dominance, whereas Jae had a very good (but not close to dominant) junior year and a dominate senior year.
Yep - That's my one knock on Jae. Markus was consistently great for four years, while Jae had a good year 1 and incredible year 2. I'm still giving the nod to Jae though. More of a complete player.
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This is a stupid argument. Markus didn't choose his teammates or his coach.
OK fine.
Markus, Wojo, Jae and Jimmy for our Mt. Rushmore.
Talk about low expectations
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OK fine.
Markus, Wojo, Jae and Jimmy for our Mt. Rushmore.
Talk about low expectations
???????????????????????
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Five players from Jae's team played in the NBA, including an all-star.
One player from Marcus' teams has ever played in the NBA, and its Sam Hauser.
Jae was damn good, but it's not even close who the better college player is. No player in Marquette history put his team on his back more than Markus Howard.
Yeah, I don't get how a lack of NCAA success is a knock on Markus as an individual player- especially from the "crap shoot" crowd. Wojo assembled mediocre talent and coaching around him. Ironically, Markus is probably single handedly responsible for the number if years wojo got.
Markus was a generational talent and the best pure scorer to play at Marquette in 40 years, if not ever. The fact that he did what he did is all the more impressive because of the players around him. Teams could key on him completely and he'd still put 50 in.
If Markus isn't on your "college only" MU rushmore I deeply question your basketball knowledge.
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Yeah, I don't get how a lack of NCAA success is a knock on Markus as an individual player- especially from the "crap shoot" crowd. Wojo assembled mediocre talent and coaching around him. Ironically, Markus is probably single handedly responsible for the number if years wojo got.
Markus was a generational talent and the best pure scorer to play at Marquette in 40 years, if not ever. The fact that he did what he did is all the more impressive because of the players around him. Teams could key on him completely and he'd still put 50 in.
If Markus isn't on your "college only" MU rushmore I deeply question your basketball knowledge.
He’s certainly on mine. He’s just not ahead of Jae for me.
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Jae Crowder played both offense and defense.
Markus was fine with the other team scoring because it meant he got the ball back in his hands to shoot again.
I like Markus but Crowder was more complete.
Crowder has a 25 point 17 rebound performance in round 1 of the NCAA Tournament IN A WIN. Then followed it up with 17 points and 13 rebounds in another win. He was a part of 4 NCAA tournament wins in 2 years with a Big East POY, All America selection, and was drafted.
I'd also take College Jae over College Markus if we were building a team to win. Jae in a landslide IMO.
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Jae Crowder played both offense and defense.
Markus was fine with the other team scoring because it meant he got the ball back in his hands to shoot again.
I like Markus but Crowder was more complete.
Crowder has a 25 point 17 rebound performance in round 1 of the NCAA Tournament IN A WIN. Then followed it up with 17 points and 13 rebounds in another win. He was a part of 4 NCAA tournament wins in 2 years with a Big East POY, All America selection, and was drafted.
I'd also take College Jae over College Markus if we were building a team to win. Jae in a landslide IMO.
Lol.
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In 30 years sinc Glenn Robinson did it at Purdue, the nation’s leading score has played in a major conference just 4 times. One was Trae Young, another was Doug McDermott, both lottery picks. The third was Erick Green who played on a truly terrible VT team and was pretty average until that year. The other is Markus. That’s how rare it is to score that many points against top tier competition every night.
When it came to pure shooting/scoring the basketball, Markus was better at than singular skill than any other Marquette player was at a singular skill ever, except maybe Mac and shot blocking.
I can’t believe we still undersell what an absolute phenom and talent he was. Love Jae, but there are plenty of very good players like him. And similar players will come through Marquette again. We likely never see another Markus
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In 30 years sinc Glenn Robinson did it at Purdue, the nation’s leading score has played in a major conference just 4 times. One was Trae Young, another was Doug McDermott, both lottery picks. The third was Erick Green who played on a truly terrible VT team and was pretty average until that year. The other is Markus. That’s how rare it is to score that many points against top tier competition every night.
When it came to pure shooting/scoring the basketball, Markus was better at than singular skill than any other Marquette player was at a singular skill ever, except maybe Mac and shot blocking.
I can’t believe we still undersell what an absolute phenom and talent he was. Love Jae, but there are plenty of very good players like him. And similar players will come through Marquette again. We likely never see another Markus
Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.
In Rowsey's Senior season the stat lines were the following.
Rowsey - 20.5 PPG, 41.5% 3PT, 4.8 AST
Howard- 20.4 PPG, 40.4% 3PT, 2.8 AST
What helped Markus rack up numbers is when the Hauser's left Markus was the only guy capable of creating his own shot half the time. His volume increased.
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Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.
#clueless
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Rowsey and Howard were HIGHLY similar.
In Rowsey's Senior season the stat lines were the following.
Rowsey - 20.5 PPG, 41.5% 3PT, 4.8 AST
Howard- 20.4 PPG, 40.4% 3PT, 2.8 AST
What helped Markus rack up numbers is when the Hauser's left Markus was the only guy capable of creating his own shot half the time. His volume increased.
…except that the next year, Howard’s Jr year, the Hausers were still there and he averaged 25 PPG on 40% 3P shooting and 4 APG, so….
With the Hausers gone he only shot 2 more FGA per game and his 3P% actually increased.
Rowsey was a great player, a great shooter, but he didn’t have the step back or shot creating craftiness that Markus had to develop. But to deem him and Markus the same level of player is just incorrect and ignores Markus’ exceptional final 2 years
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…except that the next year, Howard’s Jr year, the Hausers were still there and he averaged 25 PPG on 40% 3P shooting and 4 APG, so….
With the Hausers gone he only shot 2 more FGA per game and his 3P% actually increased.
Rowsey was a great player, a great shooter, but he didn’t have the step back or shot creating craftiness that Markus had to develop. But to deem him and Markus the same level of player is just incorrect and ignores Markus’ exceptional final 2 years
Their numbers are actually remarkably similar. There is absolutely no denying that. Regardless of how they got it done, it is still true.
Howard career 42.7% from 3
Rowsey 42.6% from 3 with MU
Howard career 3.1 APG
Rowsey 3.6 APG with MU
Howard career 88.6% FT
Rowsey 91% FT with MU
Howard career PER 25.3
Rowsey at MU 23.5
Howard career usage 34.2%
Rowsey usage at MU 28%
Their results were highly similar from similar spots on the court. Howard's volume was just much higher on average.
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Their numbers are actually remarkably similar. There is absolutely no denying that. Regardless of how they got it done, it is still true.
Howard career 42.7% from 3
Rowsey 42.6% from 3 with MU
Howard career 3.1 APG
Rowsey 3.6 APG with MU
Howard career 88.6% FT
Rowsey 91% FT with MU
Howard career PER 25.3
Rowsey at MU 23.5
Howard career usage 34.2%
Rowsey usage at MU 28%
Their results were highly similar from similar spots on the court. Howard's volume was just much higher on average.
This is in response to someone earlier saying it is likely we never see another Markus. I was just noting that we had another Markus with Markus.
The reason it is likely we won't see another Markus is because Shaka isn't going to build a roster around one shot taker. Wojo constructed a roster built around Markus that allowed him to be able to hoist as many shots as possible. Entertaining at times, but not a winning formula.
If we ever see a scenario like that again around here we probably aren't in a good place as a program.
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Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.
I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?
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Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.
I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?
And one of two two-time MU All-Americans.
And the only MU All-American since 1980 not named Dwayne Wade.
But hey, he's just a rich man's Rowsey who was a rich man's Carlino. Carlino and Markus basically the same player.
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It is OK to really appreciate how good Markus was, and to have defended him numerous times from the far too many Markus-haters on this site, and to also not include him on one's Marquette Mount
Olympus Rushmore (d'oh!), right?
Because that's where I am.
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Anybody who thinks that Rowsey was a “Markus” should probably not be taken seriously.
I know people were frustrated with the Wojo era but Markus was a consensus All American. Do people not understand what that means?
Yup.
Markus' defense improved by leaps and bounds by the time he got to his senior year. He went from a turnstile to a guy you could reliably put on the opponent's second guard. I think people also undersell just how hard Markus had to WORK to get those open looks. I don't remember any player ever putting more mileage per game on their legs for Marquette than Markus did. You want to talk about off-the-ball movement, Markus wasn't just elite, he was universally heavenly singularly Elite with a capital E.
Rowsey was a good offensive player and a great shooter, but he benefitted significantly from being surrounded by Sam and Markus. From his All-American junior year to his All-American senior year, Markus lost his two most efficient scoring teammates, had to subsequently significantly increase his usage, and still managed to improve his 3PFG% and Offensive Rating while being an even bigger focus of defenses. Do people not realize how hard that is to do?
It sucks that his coach couldn't make second half adjustments against South Carolina and that he had his team woefully unprepared for Ja Morant. It sucks that Markus lost his shot at a senior year NCAA Tournament. But in Marquette's history, we have exactly TWO players who were consensus two-time All-Americans. Butch Lee and Markus Howard. Since the 1970s, we have exactly TWO players who earned first-team All-American, Dwyane Wade and Markus Howard. If he's not on your Mount Rushmore, I get it. Tourney wins always have outsized importance when it comes to these things. But if you are making a Mount Rushmore of the last 40 years, there are only two players who MUST be on that list, and Markus Howard is one of them. That is not something that is open for debate. Since Butch Lee left, Howard is ahead of Crowder, ahead of Butler, ahead of McNeil and Matthews and McIlvaine and Novak and Diener and anyone else not named Dwyane Wade.
And comparing Howard, a TWO-TIME ALL-AMERICAN to Rowsey, a one-time Big East Honorable Mention (behind second-team Big East Howard that same year) is the height of ridiculousness.
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It is OK to really appreciate how good Markus was, and to have defended him numerous times from the far too many Markus-haters on this site, and to also not include him on one's Marquette Mount Olympus, right?
Because that's where I am.
Mount Olympus? No, that isn't okay. Because Mount Olympus is a pantheon with more than four individuals.
If you're talking about Marquette's Mount Rushmore? Sure, you can argue Wade is the only player worth putting up there with the 1970s guys. But if there are two guys post-1978 and Howard isn't one of them, that's not okay. Al, Butch, Bo, all fair to have ahead of Howard. There are a few others that can be justified from that era. There is no one other than Wade from after that era, though.
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Mount Olympus? No, that isn't okay. Because Mount Olympus is a pantheon with more than four individuals.
If you're talking about Marquette's Mount Rushmore? Sure, you can argue Wade is the only player worth putting up there with the 1970s guys. But if there are two guys post-1978 and Howard isn't one of them, that's not okay. Al, Butch, Bo, all fair to have ahead of Howard. There are a few others that can be justified from that era. There is no one other than Wade from after that era, though.
Olympus ... d'oh!
Agree with your take on post-Al-era MU Rushmore candidates.
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Their numbers are actually remarkably similar. There is absolutely no denying that. Regardless of how they got it done, it is still true.
Howard career 42.7% from 3
Rowsey 42.6% from 3 with MU
Howard career 3.1 APG
Rowsey 3.6 APG with MU
Howard career 88.6% FT
Rowsey 91% FT with MU
Howard career PER 25.3
Rowsey at MU 23.5
Howard career usage 34.2%
Rowsey usage at MU 28%
Their results were highly similar from similar spots on the court. Howard's volume was just much higher on average.
Don’t the bottom 2 numbers sort of show how much better Markus was? To put up the numbers he did, with that efficiency, on significantly higher usage is really impressive.
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One of our fellow Scoopers implied an interesting question of who would be on a Marquette Mt. Rushmore in the post-Al McGuire era. I'd argue this was from 1980 onward because the guys that played for us in 1977-1979 were largely Al McGuire recruits. In that vein, I argue the Mt. Rushmore is as follows:
Buzz Williams -- OK, he was a jerk in how he left and he had some hair on his tenure, but we consistently performed under his tenure and were a regular in the NCAA.
Dwyane Wade -- This goes without saying. The reason we made the Final Four in 2003.
Jae Crowder -- Consistently good and very strong contributor.
Jim MacIllivane -- Best center we have had since Jerome. Yes, I screw up the spelling!
Some honorable mentions:
Glenn Rivers
Wes Matthews
DJO
Jeral McNeal
Tony Smith
Tom Crean
The most glaring omission would be Crean.
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One of our fellow Scoopers implied an interesting question of who would be on a Marquette Mt. Rushmore in the post-Al McGuire era. I'd argue this was from 1980 onward because the guys that played for us in 1977-1979 were largely Al McGuire recruits. In that vein, I argue the Mt. Rushmore is as follows:
Buzz Williams -- OK, he was a jerk in how he left and he had some hair on his tenure, but we consistently performed under his tenure and were a regular in the NCAA.
Dwyane Wade -- This goes without saying. The reason we made the Final Four in 2003.
Jae Crowder -- Consistently good and very strong contributor.
Jim MacIllivane -- Best center we have had since Jerome. Yes, I screw up the spelling!
Some honorable mentions:
Glenn Rivers
Wes Matthews
DJO
Jeral McNeal
Tony Smith
Tom Crean
The most glaring omission would be Crean.
So Markus doesn't even make your post-1980 honorable mention list? Assuming this was an oversight.
But seriously, Jim McIlvaine and Buzz Williams?
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One of our fellow Scoopers implied an interesting question of who would be on a Marquette Mt. Rushmore in the post-Al McGuire era. I'd argue this was from 1980 onward because the guys that played for us in 1977-1979 were largely Al McGuire recruits. In that vein, I argue the Mt. Rushmore is as follows:
Buzz Williams -- OK, he was a jerk in how he left and he had some hair on his tenure, but we consistently performed under his tenure and were a regular in the NCAA.
Dwyane Wade -- This goes without saying. The reason we made the Final Four in 2003.
Jae Crowder -- Consistently good and very strong contributor.
Jim MacIllivane -- Best center we have had since Jerome. Yes, I screw up the spelling!
Some honorable mentions:
Glenn Rivers
Wes Matthews
DJO
Jeral McNeal
Tony Smith
Tom Crean
The most glaring omission would be Crean.
This shows you to be a non-serious person.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/UVXGjSQNI88XS/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611c071ed092dc07002d3d4a07913fcb2854144064f&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
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If we're just doing this for jokes now.
(https://i.imgur.com/pqs2pPy.png)
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Let's do a 2017-20 Marquette Mount Rushmore:
S. Hauser, J. Hauser, Rowsey, S. Hauser again (for his PG play vs Georgetown).
#keeprushmorecancerfree
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Yup.
Markus' defense improved by leaps and bounds by the time he got to his senior year. He went from a turnstile to a guy you could reliably put on the opponent's second guard. I think people also undersell just how hard Markus had to WORK to get those open looks. I don't remember any player ever putting more mileage per game on their legs for Marquette than Markus did. You want to talk about off-the-ball movement, Markus wasn't just elite, he was universally heavenly singularly Elite with a capital E.
Rowsey was a good offensive player and a great shooter, but he benefitted significantly from being surrounded by Sam and Markus. From his All-American junior year to his All-American senior year, Markus lost his two most efficient scoring teammates, had to subsequently significantly increase his usage, and still managed to improve his 3PFG% and Offensive Rating while being an even bigger focus of defenses. Do people not realize how hard that is to do?
It sucks that his coach couldn't make second half adjustments against South Carolina and that he had his team woefully unprepared for Ja Morant. It sucks that Markus lost his shot at a senior year NCAA Tournament. But in Marquette's history, we have exactly TWO players who were consensus two-time All-Americans. Butch Lee and Markus Howard. Since the 1970s, we have exactly TWO players who earned first-team All-American, Dwyane Wade and Markus Howard. If he's not on your Mount Rushmore, I get it. Tourney wins always have outsized importance when it comes to these things. But if you are making a Mount Rushmore of the last 40 years, there are only two players who MUST be on that list, and Markus Howard is one of them. That is not something that is open for debate. Since Butch Lee left, Howard is ahead of Crowder, ahead of Butler, ahead of McNeil and Matthews and McIlvaine and Novak and Diener and anyone else not named Dwyane Wade.
And comparing Howard, a TWO-TIME ALL-AMERICAN to Rowsey, a one-time Big East Honorable Mention (behind second-team Big East Howard that same year) is the height of ridiculousness.
Yep. I can't believe some people still don't seem to appreciate that we got to watch not only one of the best offensive college basketball talents in MU history but really all time. Lets not forget that beyond the ridiculous shooting he could consistently beat buys off the bounce and finish in the lane either with the floater or at the rim as a 5'10" dude.
I had many gripes against Wojo, but what I can't forgive him for is that he didn't get Markus at least one NCAA win- either by surrounding him with better talent, keeping his locker room together, or doing a better job coaching (or all 3!).
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If we're just doing this for jokes now.
(https://i.imgur.com/pqs2pPy.png)
Lol awesome.
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I’m not sure how someone has Jerel’s career over Markus’. I really liked Jerel, but Markus was a better player.
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This shows you to be a non-serious person.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/UVXGjSQNI88XS/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611c071ed092dc07002d3d4a07913fcb2854144064f&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
I like Markus but all of these people helped move the program forward.
We did not move forward under Markus. I probably should have added him to the honorable mention, but to this old Warrior, winning is paramount.
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I like Markus but all of these people helped move the program forward.
We did not move forward under Markus. I probably should have added him to the honorable mention, but to this old Warrior, winning is paramount.
But we moved forward with Tony Smith, who had a grand total of 2 NIT losses to his postseason resume? Give me a break. You had a bad take about Markus and are just doubling down on it.
The post-1978 Rushmore starts with Wade and Markus. Period. And you say Howard didn't win anything, but it was Howard's arrival that got us back to the tourney after 3 consecutive misses (including one from Buzz). Howard got us back into the national spotlight in 2019 and single-handedly had us ranked in the top-20 in 2020. No player at Marquette did more individually to move the program forward than Howard. No player did more with bigger obstacles in terms of supporting cast and coaching. Howard was so good that Steve Wojciechowski kept his job for 7 years. You can be disappointed in Wojo all you like, but Howard is the only one since 1978 that stands on that pedestal with Wade. There's Wade, then Howard, then a massive gap before debating Jae, Buzz, Mac, KO, Doc, JFB, or anyone else.
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Al McGuire
Butch Lee
Dwyane Wade
Markus Howard.
Build it now.
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I like Markus but all of these people helped move the program forward.
We did not move forward under Markus. I probably should have added him to the honorable mention, but to this old Warrior, winning is paramount.
Many argue Lebron vs MJ. Dgies argues MJ vs Robert Horry as the greatest of the modern era. Winning is paramount.
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One of our fellow Scoopers implied an interesting question of who would be on a Marquette Mt. Rushmore in the post-Al McGuire era. I'd argue this was from 1980 onward because the guys that played for us in 1977-1979 were largely Al McGuire recruits. In that vein, I argue the Mt. Rushmore is as follows:
Buzz Williams -- OK, he was a jerk in how he left and he had some hair on his tenure, but we consistently performed under his tenure and were a regular in the NCAA.
Dwyane Wade -- This goes without saying. The reason we made the Final Four in 2003.
Jae Crowder -- Consistently good and very strong contributor.
Jim MacIllivane -- Best center we have had since Jerome. Yes, I screw up the spelling!
Some honorable mentions:
Glenn Rivers
Wes Matthews
DJO
Jeral McNeal
Tony Smith
Tom Crean
The most glaring omission would be Crean.
Crean sucks
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I'd listen to any battles for No. 4, but not sure how anybody could carve out a Marquette Mount Rushmore without Al, Butch and D-Wade.
Wags summed up the candidacies of Lee and Wade perfectly, so no need to go further.
For the fourth head ... Thompson, Ellis or Meminger would seem the most likely choices.
Agree completely on the first three. I don’t see how anyone can argue them.
As far as the fourth, there are plenty of good names out there including the ones you listed, plus Doc, Lucas and maybe others.
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Agree completely on the first three. I don’t see how anyone can argue them.
As far as the fourth, there are plenty of good names out there including the ones you listed, plus Doc, Lucas and maybe others.
I like Rivers a lot, but he wasn't really a great college basketball player and his teams didn't win diddly. But Lucas I could get behind, as well as any of several others.
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I like Rivers a lot, but he wasn't really a great college basketball player and his teams didn't win diddly. But Lucas I could get behind, as well as any of several others.
Yeah, but Doc gets karma points for the halfcourt shot against ND. ;)
Seriously, I agree that others have a much better case for the fourth entry.
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Yeah, but Doc gets karma points for the halfcourt shot against ND. ;)
My single favorite shot in my Marquette history.
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My single favorite shot in my Marquette history.
C'mon man, nothin' trumps J's winnin' basket vs UNCC, aina?
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C'mon man, nothin' trumps J's winnin' basket vs UNCC, aina?
That was before MY Marquette history. I’m much younger than you, nu?
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Age don't mean stink, boychik, aina?
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Age don't mean stink, boychik, aina?
I’ll make it real basic for you:
Most Important Shot In MU History: Whitehead’s vs UNCC.
My Favorite Shot Since I Personally Had Any Affiliation At All with Marquette: Rivers’ vs ND.
If you still don’t understand, maybe ask a 4-year-old to explain it to you, nu?
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If we're just doing this for jokes now.
(https://i.imgur.com/pqs2pPy.png)
No Magic Dawson?