Post Mortem

[1SE]

It's taken me a week to digest that nightmare. UNC is good and was a bad matchup for us but that was as deflated as I've been since being in the stands against Kansas in New Orleans.

I know bits of this have been discussed elsewhere, but what in the world went wrong? None of the options seems great.

I don't buy the talent excuse. We had gone 8-1 with 5 of those wins over teams ranked at the time, the sole loss coming by 2 pts, on the road, against an eventual league champ, 4 seed, and S16 team (and beyond?), and an overall scoring margin of 691-587 (per game average 11.5). That being the result of "randomly" of playing above our talent level for 9 consecutive games is about 0.1%.

So that leaves me with the other three options. 

Did they run out of gas? (Sure, but compared to everyone else? And if so why - it's not like we had a short roster?). That's on the conditioning staff. If that's the case, we need accountability.

Did other teams figure us out? I think this is most likely (and also most disturbing and Shakahowski-esque). Teams shut down our main offensive movement of the Kolek-initiated  P&R and without that we either jacked up 3s or had Morsell or Lewis try to Iso into the lane. On D, teams up their intensity of crashing the O glass and in many cases got us really disorganized getting to open 3 looks. If it's this, then I think Shaka is very much under pressure not to have a Feb/March meltdown again next year. We don't need to be going to the S16, but we need to be playing our best (or at least not markedly worse) ball in Feb/March. Otherwise I think there will be cause for concern.

Or did the guys stop buying into what Shaka was selling? I think it might also be some of this - a lot of poor body language in the 2nd half of the season - guys whose shot might be off not finding other ways to make positive contributions. If it's this that's not great either - Shaka did a great job of getting our guys up for that Jan run - but then we need to see that sustained.

Or it could be that the phony cowboy just put a voodo curse on us and we'll never win a NCAAT game again until he retires.

[Hards Alumni]

It's taken me a week to digest that nightmare. UNC is good and was a bad matchup for us but that was as deflated as I've been since being in the stands against Kansas in New Orleans.

Let me stop you right there.  Since that ill-fated night in New Orleans in 2003, we have seen much much more disappointment than last week.  So much so that the UNC game doesn't even register in my top 10.

Perhaps you've forgotten the Lopez twins blowing us up in 2008 to shut down our run.

or

The next year when we had a 6 seed and lost to 11th ranked Washington.

or

in 2012 as a 3 seed, getting upset by 7 Florida (Our best team since 2003, though debateable)

or

in 2019 when 5 seeded Marquette got it doors blown off by 12 seeded Ja Morant.

So, to me, this game was a blip.  It doesn't even register as a 4 of 10 on the pain scale.  We were playing with house money and we lost.  No big deal.

[lawdog77]

Let me stop you right there.  Since that ill-fated night in New Orleans in 2003, we have seen much much more disappointment than last week.  So much so that the UNC game doesn't even register in my top 10.

Perhaps you've forgotten the Lopez twins blowing us up in 2008 to shut down our run.

or

The next year when we had a 6 seed and lost to 11th ranked Washington.

or

in 2012 as a 3 seed, getting upset by 7 Florida (Our best team since 2003, though debateable)

or

in 2019 when 5 seeded Marquette got it doors blown off by 12 seeded Ja Morant.

So, to me, this game was a blip.  It doesn't even register as a 4 of 10 on the pain scale.  We were playing with house money and we lost.  No big deal.

This. Especially after seeing UNC get up 25 on the 1 seed, I realized this game wasn't about MU schemes, or attitudes,, it was about a better team finally playing well. So now we need to upgrade the talent. I trust Shaka.

[Stretchdeltsig]

It's become a definite pattern of modern Marquette teams who play worse as the season goes on. Ironically the Badgers usually trend upward. It could be conditioning and coaching and definitely our poor shooting. Its getting tiresome as our competition plays better in late season.

[fjm]

Shaka lost his first real NCAA tourney test.

[Goose]

I don't buy teams figured us out in the second half of the season. Now, if Nova figured us out, I would say I buy that. Of the top teams in the BE we either won or held our own against those teams the second time around. We beat Nova twice, SH twice, were a bunny away from beating Providence twice and stepped on our johnson twice against Creighton. I would also argue that St. John's had a nice team and we played them hard and beat them in a game that easily could have gone the other way based off of how they were playing going into that game.

We played poorly the last month and I chalk that up on not making shots, poor rebounding and guys not playing team ball. Elliott and Kam were 0 for February and March and that did not help the cause. They were not as good as they were in January and were not as bad as they were in the late season. Unfortunately, MU fans have scars from late season collapses and I believe it jades the thought process. Worst part, they had a late season collapse and soured the overall season to some degree.

I think it comes down to talent. Shaka got every ounce of energy against top competition almost every time on the court and that is a positive. I am betting my optimism on an uptick on talent and see what happens. I think having Stevie and Omax at the UNC PC was telling sign. Those two were the two that played better late in the season and gave 100% every game. Time for Shaka to get better players that buy into his system.

[RubyWiscy]

Young team with typical ups and downs. What we all predicted but forgot when we hit our peak mid season. MU is in great hands with Shaka.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I think it was a combination of the talent and teams adjusting to what was working so well for us. And when Shaka tried to adjust again after the Big East figured us out we didn't have the talent to successfully play another way.

For example, the success Kolek was having with the pick and roll in the first Providence game. When that was taken away we didn't have a counterpunch and I think that was more due to the current limits of some of our players. Not trying to pick on Tyler at all here but when teams stopped leaving shooters when he penetrated he was unable to finish at the rim or with a floater consistently.

[Warrior Code]

[willie warrior]

This. Especially after seeing UNC get up 25 on the 1 seed, I realized this game wasn't about MU schemes, or attitudes,, it was about a better team finally playing well. So now we need to upgrade the talent. I trust Shaka.

Here we go again
No big deal. We were outclassed by a better team. Unaccptable excuse. We were blasted into outer space.

[Hards Alumni]

Here we go again
No big deal. We were outclassed by a better team. Unaccptable excuse. We were blasted into outer space.

Find a new hobby.

[hairy worthen]

It's become a definite pattern of modern Marquette teams who play worse as the season goes on. Ironically the Badgers usually trend upward. It could be conditioning and coaching and definitely our poor shooting. Its getting tiresome as our competition plays better in late season.

I don't buy the argument that the current team is performing a certain way because of the way past teams performed. This years teams failures or success has nothing to do with any of Wojo's teams failures or success. Now if the same head coach is tanking in the same way every year, then that is a pattern.

BTW, Badgers lost 3 of their last 4 and were lucky to beat Purdue with a bank in 3 at the end of the game. Also, struggled against a 14 seed.

[Uncle Rico]

Here we go again
No big deal. We were outclassed by a better team. Unaccptable excuse. We were blasted into outer space.

Thanks, Wanky

[Goose]

hairy

I agree on past regime failures should not be compared to this year. Now, if it happens a couple more times than Shaka is not the right guy. I looked at this season as being the start of a new MU program and overall it was success, IMO. We stunk up the joint three times in the last month and that is in memory bank, previous HC results are not, at least in discussion about the Shaka era.

[hairy worthen]

Here we go again
No big deal. We were outclassed by a better team. Unaccptable excuse. We were blasted into outer space.

Patience Willie, sustained success is coming.

UNC- a really good team that underperformed during the season to earn a lower seed than they should have been. MU- an average talented team that overperformed to earn a higher seed than they should have been. Perfect storm of teams going in opposite directions. Simple as that to me. Shaka coached his ass off to get his team a higher seed than the talent warranted.

[1SE]

We were 3-6 over our last nine games with a schedule that included:

Butler x2
vs GT
vs SJU
@ DePaul

We had games against 4 NCAA bound teams - one 5 seed, one 8 seed and one 9 seed (x2).

That body of work, against that schedule, for February/March is terrible. Yes UNC was a tough draw, but the worse 8/9 loss ever - and our worse loss of the season by 16 points! A season that included playing UCLA, UW, Nova and a sh*t ton of other Q1A games.

And the likelihood that our guys were just playing out of their minds, but weren't "actually that good" over the 8-1 stretch is almost infinitesimal. We had the talent (or Shaka was able to squeeze out a sum greater than the parts) to compete, if not win, with almost everyone).

Why wasn't he able to squeeze that out down the stretch? Why did the sum of the parts suddenly equal the sum of the parts?

I'm not on the Nah-ka train by any means, but like Goose said these are data points. If we're not playing our best (or no worse) ball of the season in February/March next year, I'll start to have some doubts if Shaka is our guy.

At this point, I'd rather miss the tourney next year as long as we're playing our best ball at the end of the year.

[1SE]

And since my dander is up, I can't stand this COLE argument that "well, look at UK and UW and UCONN - they cr@pped the bed too"

Good for them. I'm sure their fans are pissed as well. Excusing our cr@pping the bed because others also do it is the most COLE thing there is.

[The Sultan]

I think we should start another topic about this. Always great to give the whiners and complainers another place to say the same damn sh*t they've been saying for a week straight.

[Elonsmusk]

I don't buy teams figured us out in the second half of the season. Now, if Nova figured us out, I would say I buy that. Of the top teams in the BE we either won or held our own against those teams the second time around. We beat Nova twice, SH twice, were a bunny away from beating Providence twice and stepped on our johnson twice against Creighton. I would also argue that St. John's had a nice team and we played them hard and beat them in a game that easily could have gone the other way based off of how they were playing going into that game.

We played poorly the last month and I chalk that up on not making shots, poor rebounding and guys not playing team ball. Elliott and Kam were 0 for February and March and that did not help the cause. They were not as good as they were in January and were not as bad as they were in the late season. Unfortunately, MU fans have scars from late season collapses and I believe it jades the thought process. Worst part, they had a late season collapse and soured the overall season to some degree.

I think it comes down to talent. Shaka got every ounce of energy against top competition almost every time on the court and that is a positive. I am betting my optimism on an uptick on talent and see what happens. I think having Stevie and Omax at the UNC PC was telling sign. Those two were the two that played better late in the season and gave 100% every game. Time for Shaka to get better players that buy into his system.

100% spot on Goose.

[1SE]

100% spot on Goose.

But why were Stevie and Omax the only ones giving 100% all of the time at the end of the season? That's the "insufficient morale" which ultimately has to fall back on coaching.

[Scoop Snoop]

There was no "one thing" that caused us to slide. I think Goose's multi-faceted post is the best summary, but others here have offered insightful takes as well.

Although the Baylor/UNC game ended up in OT due to a furious rally by Baylor (sparked by the ejection of a UNC player), the high-water mark of 25 that UNC achieved convinced me that part of our being stomped by UNC was due to an opponent that was radically improved from its earlier season performances. If the committee still considered late season performances, UNC would have almost certainly been seeded higher and we might have been a 10- 11 seed. We never would have met on the court. This is not meant as an excuse for the record blowout.

I'm not a fan of blaming "bad luck" on losses, but I will make an exception here regarding Marquette's draws in this year's and previous NCAA matchups. We faced superstar Ja Morant and then another time a South Carolina team who's best player had to sit out much of their season but was ready for the tourney and  a trip to the Final Four. Let's put the embarrassing loss to UNC in perspective, but should we have been able to get closer than 32 points? Yes.

[1SE]

There was no "one thing" that caused us to slide. I think Goose's multi-faceted post is the best summary, but others here have offered insightful takes as well.

Although the Baylor/UNC game ended up in OT due to a furious rally by Baylor (sparked by the ejection of a UNC player), the high-water mark of 25 that UNC achieved convinced me that part of our being stomped by UNC was due to an opponent that was radically improved from its earlier season performances. If the committee still considered late season performances, UNC would have almost certainly been seeded higher and we might have been a 10- 11 seed. We never would have met on the court. This is not meant as an excuse for the record blowout.

I'm not a fan of blaming "bad luck" on losses, but I will make an exception here regarding Marquette's draws in this year's and previous NCAA matchups. We faced superstar Ja Morant and a South Carolina team who's best player had to sit out much of their season but was ready for the tourney and  a trip to the Final Four. Let's put the embarrassing loss to UNC in perspective, but should we have been able to get closer than 32 points? Yes.

Yeah, I didn't mean only one thing - but the dominant factor.

The UNC game is bad - but they could make the FF - as you say it might be the case again of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What worries me more is the 3-5 record that included 5 games against the bottom 3 BE teams and only 1 game against a top 3 BE team. That awfulness could have been redeemed, in my eyes, with a NCAAT win - but since we instead got the largest 8/9 loss ever (and I'm sure there have been other "underseeded vs. overseeded" matches on that line) that 3-5 stretch really sticks in my craw.

You're right we shouldn't have played UNC in the 1st round, but mainly because we shouldn't have been worse than a 7 seed. Had we gone 5-3 down the stretch we would have easily been a 7 if not a 6.

[Farley36]

It's taken Scoop a week or less to digest the biggest blowout in 8/9 history to consolidate the talking points in order to rationalize that embarrassment and act like it wasn't that bad and "next year" they'll finally turn this around.

[willie warrior]

Find a new hobby.

I have. Living rent free in your head. Must be one of those who settle for lame excuses. Team blew it big time last month of season so start the rationalization.

[willie warrior]

It's taken Scoop a week or less to digest the biggest blowout in 8/9 history to consolidate the talking points in order to rationalize that embarrassment and act like it wasn't that bad and "next year" they'll finally turn this around.

Amen.