Explosions in Kiev

[JWags85]

The funniest thing I think I’ve seen on Scoop is the Trumpers getting angry over liberals pulling a “yeah but.” You guys did this EVERY DAY for four years lolllllllllllll!

So hilarious.

“Trumpers”…aka anyone here that isn’t unfailing markedly left leaning  . I can’t speak for everyone but I was never a cheerleader for Trump. I criticized him plenty without losing my mind over every dumb thing he did.  To my knowledge neither was Goose or Lenny.  It’s stupid catch all write offs of opinion.  But totally HILARIOUS.

Biden's biggest strength is his ability to unite groups when it is possible.

Biden's biggest weakness is he says what is on his mind a little too much.

He's always been this way.

That’s a pretty good summation.  And there are far worse weaknesses to have.  But it can be a bit thorny when you’re sitting in the big chair

[Jockey]

In your opinion. But the remark nonetheless made Biden’s handlers cringe. How do you feel about his other three statements - sending troops to Ukraine, responding to the use of chemical weapons “in kind” and support for the overthrow of the Russian government? The first two statements are patently false and give Putin propaganda free of charge. The third is what we all wish for but should have never been said by an American president - and also give Putin free propaganda to rally the Russians against the West.

I appreciate the fact that Biden is working with NATO rather than doing Putin’s bidding and trying to destroy it.

I appreciate that Biden does not try to extort our Allies for personal gain.

I appreciate that Biden respects the Constitution rather than try to overthrow the government to dispose of it.

I appreciate Biden for putting the interests of America over his own monetary gain.

I appreciate Biden for supporting all Americans regardless of color or sexual orientation.

I appreciate that Biden does not stoop to vile racism that we saw in the Senate this week.

Decency matters!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

TSmith

Speaking only for myself, I thought Trump said a lot of stupid things and it bothered me. Thankfully, his comments were not made at a time of an international crisis. Again, speaking for myself, my concern is not what Biden said, but how does he back up those words if push turns to shove.

In a time of crisis, which we may find ourselves in, we need a leader that makes as few mistakes as possible. First, I pray this does not escalate, and if it does, I hope the President is up to the task.

Again, I don't think it was a mistake at all, but you are free, obviously, to have a different opinion.

The comparison I was making was to highlight the now expected and standard rank hypocrisy of the people that suddenly have the vapors over a statement calling out a murderer.

[4everwarriors]

A very intelligent man has said, "the biggest threat to this country, is the Democratic Party." This thread validates that quote, hey?

[MU82]

Ok, let's keep the focus on Ukraine - Biden's comments are fair discussion, but the rest of the political commentary isn't needed.

Yessir.

A very intelligent man has said, "the biggest threat to this country, is the Democratic Party." This thread validates that quote, hey?

[MuggsyB]

I don't care what people write Rocky although I didn't expect a list about Biden being the Messiah. 

[Uncle Rico]

A very intelligent man has said, "the biggest threat to this country, is the Democratic Party." This thread validates that quote, hey?

I feel great sorrow for you.  I really do.  What a sad life you must have.  I hope you find happiness in this scary world

[Lennys Tap]

Yessir.

So you quote 4ever but not Jockey’s post that came just before. Hypocrisy and Tribalism at its finest!

Go Marquette!

[4everwarriors]

No sweat Rico, really I'm good, hey?

[JWags85]

A very intelligent man has said, "the biggest threat to this country, is the Democratic Party." This thread validates that quote, hey?

I thought the biggest threat was murder hornets 🧐

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Ok, let's keep the focus on Ukraine - Biden's comments are fair discussion, but the rest of the political commentary isn't needed.

I hope everyone takes Rocky's "advice" to heart as I have religiously been reading this thread and appreciate the many on topic comments and links.

I think this was a Biden faux pas based on the administration's walkback. Not necessarily a setback to ending this war but not helpful short term. Perhaps there's some way it can be turned into an advantage. I haven't read of any Russian response to Biden's off the cuff remark.

[MuggsyB]

Having listened to that portion of Biden's speech it's very clear that wasn’t a gaffe.  So what's puzzling to me is whether this was actually written by his speechwriter or if President Biden extemporaneously was venting his disgust for Putin? 

[Pakuni]

So you quote 4ever but not Jockey’s post that came just before. Hypocrisy and Tribalism at its finest!

Go Marquette!

Your "I'm above all this tribalism" schtick might have more credibility if you a) stopped aping Fox News talking points and b) ever called out the likes of 4ever and rocket, who regularly stray far off topic to insert their right-wing politics conspiracy theories, lies and misinformation here.

[🏀]

Your "I'm above all this tribalism" schtick might have more credibility if you a) stopped aping Fox News talking points and b) ever called out the likes of 4ever and rocket, who regularly stray far off topic to insert their right-wing politics here.

Right-wing politics are fine and welcomed. It’s the right-wing conspiracy theories, lies and misinformation they spew that have no place here or anywhere.

[MU82]

So you quote 4ever but not Jockey’s post that came just before. Hypocrisy and Tribalism at its finest!

You know all about tribalism, Lenny, but sure ...

Jockey's post was about what he felt were the differences between Biden and his predecessor. It came after rocky's request and he shouldn't have made it.

Your tribal buddy's post, also coming after rocky's request, was an attack against all Democrats ... and yet it somehow didn't bother your sudden distaste for tribalism.

We Are Marquette!

[Pakuni]

Right-wing politics are fine and welcomed. It’s the right-wing conspiracy theories, lies and misinformation they spew that have no place here or anywhere.

Fair

[MUBurrow]

1. Imo Biden's quote is an unforced error.  It feeds into the worst stereotype of American foreign policy that meddles and foments regime change whenever possible, and reinforces Putin's anti-NATO propaganda.  Granted, you can't let strongmen with state-run media control the entire conversation, but you don't need to parrot their talking points either.  This was an "axis of evil" style blunder.  Internal discord was doing our work for us, and that was prematurely used as a victory lap to our own detriment.

2. The notion that any of this is happening because the world doesn't fear/respect Biden is stupid.  Its a strange man-crush symptom of our political discourse since Reagan.  The rest of the world's actions don't hinge on whether old white men here think our President has a big donger.  But ever since the Gipper got credit for getting the Iranian hostages released, we've been plagued by that particular brain rot.

[JWags85]

You know all about tribalism, Lenny, but sure ...

Jockey's post was about what he felt were the differences between Biden and his predecessor. It came after rocky's request and he shouldn't have made it.

Your tribal buddy's post, also coming after rocky's request, was an attack against all Democrats ... and yet it somehow didn't bother your sudden distaste for tribalism.

We Are Marquette!

True, Jockey never attacks all right of the aisle parties and opinions. Very level that one.

Also, I rarely agree with much of what rocket or 4Ever say, but to act like to not call them out is someone endorsement or explicit bias is a bit silly…cause the minute it’s posted 25 castigations or “4 out of 10” ratings come flying in. You visit a thread 1-2 hours after he posts and mocking replies or legit rebuttals (often totally merited) have been posted 10x over.

If jumping into the echo chamber is what is needed to be allowed to disagree with the other side of the aisle and not be labeled “tribal” so be it

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Having listened to that portion of Biden's speech it's very clear that wasn’t a gaffe.  So what's puzzling to me is whether this was actually written by his speechwriter or if President Biden extemporaneously was venting his disgust for Putin?

I agree. And walking it back has been SOP for every administration since I can remember. Put something out there that you want to be heard, then claim (ingeniously) that wasn't what you really meant. IMO it was very intentional by the administration to tell Putin his bullying and strongman bullcrap will be the end of him if it continues.

[Pakuni]

I agree. And walking it back has been SOP for every administration since I can remember. Put something out there that you want to be heard, then claim (ingeniously) that wasn't what you really meant. IMO it was very intentional by the administration to tell Putin his bullying and strongman bullcrap will be the end of him if it continues.

Partially agree.
I don't think this was some off-the-cuff ad lib. It was said intentionally, but also in a way that offered plausible deniability back home.
And it was said not for Putin or people back home, but for:
a) Allies in Eastern Europe, who want and need assurance that we have their backs, and that we understand - as they know for fact -  that they'll never truly be secure as long as Putin remains in power.
b) The Russian elites and bourgeoisie who are suffering as a result of Putin's actions and don't have, and never had, anything to gain from a conquest of Ukraine. This signals to them they have a way out of this, but that way doesn't involve Vlad.

We definitely can debate whether this was a wise strategy, but I do believe it was strategy.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Partially agree.
I don't think this was some off-the-cuff ad lib. It was said intentionally, but also in a way that offered plausible deniability back home.
And it was said not for Putin or people back home, but for:
a) Allies in Eastern Europe, who want and need assurance that we have their backs, and that we understand - as they know for fact -  that they'll never truly be secure as long as Putin remains in power.
b) The Russian elites and bourgeoisie who are suffering as a result of Putin's actions and don't have, and never had, anything to gain from a conquest of Ukraine. This signals to them they have a way out of this, but that way doesn't involve Vlad.

We definitely can debate whether this was a wise strategy, but I do believe it was strategy.

Agreed, reasonable people can disagree whether it was wise or not.

But anyone that seriously* thinks Putin is going to respond to diplomatic niceties or even gives a flying unnatural carnal knowledge about them is delusional. His entire war plan, if it can be called that, was to seize Kyiv within 3 days, assassinate Zelenskyy and Ukraine's other leaders, and (re)install a puppet government. Pearl clutching because Biden correctly said he must go is weak crap.


* as opposed to simply reflexively bitching because Biden is a Democratic President

[Jockey]

So you quote 4ever but not Jockey’s post that came just before. Hypocrisy and Tribalism at its finest!

Go Marquette!

Supporting someone who didn’t attempt a coup is not tribalism. If you are on the same team as people the people who did, expect that to influence people’s opinion of you.

[dgies9156]

fluff

I have supported every President, regardless of party, my entire life. I have always believed that is what you do as an American citizen and that will never change.

I cannot agree with you more. Whether Trump, Biden, Obama, Clinton or Bush, or others, I am a firm believer that whoever is President is MY president. He/she was elected constitutionally and my strong view is we owe to our nation to give them a chance. With every President, I hope they're successful, suffering falls and the economy booms.

It's OK to criticize and trust me I do, but at the end of the day, when it matters, Joe Biden is my President for the next three years.

That said, I sometimes think this country has gone off the rails. We're pushing so far to one extreme or the other that things that should get done aren't. And things that probably would be toned down if we weren't tone deaf are happening. We listen to people who echo our views and pay no attention to those who challenge us. It's disgusting and it creates an environment where no matter how things shake out, the country is worse off.

Years ago, a student at Marquette challenged the Jesuit view that we should be empathetic to those who live on the streets around Marquette. His views were extreme and far out of the mainstream of social thought on campus. Yet the Campus newspaper published all of his letters as well as a healthy portion of those who felt otherwise. It became a teaching moment, not just about compassion and empathy but about what our responsibilities to one another might be. Never would have happened if some editor said, "it's too controversial," or if "it's out of the mainstream of thought on campus." We became better because of the debate.

When the New York Times has a staff coup over an op-ed piece from Tom Cotton, it's a sign our country has gone wacky!

As to Ukraine, most of America is out in left field. It's run by the mob and is effectively a kleptocracy. Since the Velvet Revolution, it has more support from the rank-and-file Ukrainian but it's still a heavily flawed country with serious problems. President Biden is correct in not risking World War III over a country whose government has far from overwhelming support. The only reason the nation is supported is that 2/3rds of Ukraine hates the Russians more than the US woke hates conservative Christians.

[Pakuni]

When the New York Times has a staff coup over an op-ed piece from Tom Cotton, it's a sign our country has gone wacky!

What a coincidence.
When I saw that a sitting U.S. senator was calling on members of the U.S. military to use their weapons against fellow Americans, I saw that as a sign our country has gone wacky.
But maybe you're right. The reaction of the NY Times staffers was the real wackiness there.

[dgies9156]

What a coincidence.
When I saw that a sitting U.S. senator was calling on members of the U.S. military to use their weapons against fellow Americans, I saw that as a sign our country has gone wacky.
But maybe you're right. The reaction of the NY Times staffers was the real outrage there.

Brother Pakuni:

When we're afraid to listen to those who don't agree with us, we head down a path where the military eventually starts shooting -- and it's never good.

You can make all the false parallels you want. You're entitled. But the reality is that when we're afraid to listen, as we are way too often now, we go down a slippery slope toward wackiness. What you and I are arguing is degree.

The greatness of America is our marketplace of ideas.