The “Feb. Fade”

[21Jumpstreet]

Again, no one is saying this is unique to MU. But the best teams are the ones who can deal with it. MU doesn't have the experience or talent to do that as well as other teams yet.

All part of the growth process for these guys.

I think it's all mental. Hopefully Shaka and the boys all keep their chins up and fight, every single play. Culture takes time.

[rocky_warrior]

Culture takes time.

Sure, but I don't think the recent problems are a culture issue, it's more a talent issue that many noticed before the season ever started.   Hopefully they can stitch a few more good games together yet this year.

[wadesworld]

Marquette has a lot of one dimensional players. Kolek controls the game as a ball handler and play maker, but he's not really a threat to score. Teams have adjusted and not collapsing their defense on his drive/the pick and roll. Kur and Oso are roll guys on the pick and roll and go to block shots defensively. Teams are keeping their bigs attached to them on the roll. OMax is a straight line driver who doesn't pass out of the drive often at all. Greg, Joplin, and Jones are guys teams are running off the three point line.

Lewis and Morsell are the only multilevel scorers we have, with Kam occasionally being able to get to the rim to score. Morsell is too inconsistent. Lewis is the only one with the ability and consistency to carry the team.

Defensively, teams are attacking the back end of the press again. When they're forced into a half court offense, they're giving MU a taste of their own medicine. Getting into the lane, forcing the defense to collapse, and taking advantage of the defense over helping. Teams are back door cutting on the over help/collapse, and then when the defense rotates on that, the kick to the three is wide open.

The rotation is like 11 guys. They're 18-23 year olds playing twice a week. They're not tired. They're limited and scouted.

[21Jumpstreet]

Sure, but I don't think the recent problems are a culture issue, it's more a talent issue that many noticed before the season ever started.   Hopefully they can stitch a few more good games together yet this year.

I'm not so sure. For me the body language, the accountability (which is improving), the lack of full effort every play, mindset after mistakes, making the same ones is culture. They are talented enough to win any game, and lose any game quite frankly, mentally, not quite there yet. Perhaps I put too much emphasis on the mental side, you're right, it is major college basketball where talent often wins out over effort and mental toughness.

[21Jumpstreet]

I would add, we are a collection of new players either new to college Bball or new to Shaka. Some of those guys transferred in and need to adjust their mental strength and mindset. That's culture, and maybe substantially different from where they came from. Clearly we can play, also clearly we lose our mental edge.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I have no doubt Shaka has this program pointed in the right direction.  Even with a loss tomorrow, 10-9 is far better than I expected this group to be.  Its been a fun year.  I certainly didn't expect Justin to become a legitimate 1st round NBA talent and BE 1st teamer. That's helped a lot.  Morsell has been up and down and largely what I expected - perhaps a tad better of offense, but not quite as good of a defender as billed. Kam has been a surprise at the times.  The rest of the roster has largely been what I expected - a bunch of role players and younger guys trying to find their way, none of them consistently producing.  Some nice upside in OMax and Oso that I certainly look forward to down the road.

All in all, its really hard to look at this season as a whole and be disappointed.  We're a lock for the NCAA tournament - yes, even if they lose 2 more in a row, they're going to get in. I am pleased.  Just hope we can get a bit more excitement before its all over.  Would suck to finish the season with whimper, especially with no baseball to look forward to. 

[The Equalizer]

I have no doubt Shaka has this program pointed in the right direction.  Even with a loss tomorrow, 10-9 is far better than I expected this group to be.  Its been a fun year.  I certainly didn't expect Justin to become a legitimate 1st round NBA talent and BE 1st teamer. That's helped a lot.  Morsell has been up and down and largely what I expected - perhaps a tad better of offense, but not quite as good of a defender as billed. Kam has been a surprise at the times.  The rest of the roster has largely been what I expected - a bunch of role players and younger guys trying to find their way, none of them consistently producing.  Some nice upside in OMax and Oso that I certainly look forward to down the road.

All in all, its really hard to look at this season as a whole and be disappointed.  We're a lock for the NCAA tournament - yes, even if they lose 2 more in a row, they're going to get in. I am pleased.  Just hope we can get a bit more excitement before its all over.  Would suck to finish the season with whimper, especially with no baseball to look forward to.

At the start of the season, I said there was no reason why MU wouldn't be the Big East middle of the pack. Usually there's 2-3 really good teams that will sweep us, 2-3 really bad teams that we will sweep, and a bunch of teams in the middle where splitting the two games make sense.

To be fair, I thought the two teams that would sweep us would be UConn and Villanova, and the three teams we'd sweep would be DePaul, Butler and Georgetown, and our record would wind up at 11-9. Instead, we swept Villanova, Seton Hall, and Georgetown, and got swept by  UConn and Creighton. Splits with PC, Butler, Xavier, and DePaul (with St. John's still to play).  We're going to finish 10-9 or 11-8, right where I expected.

So from a satisfaction level this year, I'm not disappointed at all. My bigger disappointment with this season is that don't appear to be  as well-positioned for the future as I hoped we would be. 

Creighton was probably our closest peer in terms of rebuilding, and it looks like their frosh-heavy roster is a step ahead of ours.  I dont' see anything that suggests that we're going leapfrog them. Vilanova is reloading, and under Jay Wright probably won't be any worse than they were this year--same as the last decade. UConn is already top 3 in the league largely and accomplished it with talent recruited when they were in a terrible conference.  They're showing a talent upgrade, reaping the benefit of Big East membership on the recruiting trail. 

Would anyone argue that based on what we see right now, those three teams are likely to finish 1/2/3 in the 2023 Big East season, and all three more likely to sweep us than not? 

Where do our wins come from?  The first six come from sweeping Georgetown, Butler, and a rebuilding Providence.  And the next four are splits with an improving DePaul, always tough St. Johns, our nemesis Seton Hall and the enigmatic Xavier (who will have significantly more raw talent but probably still be coached by Travis "Wojo" Steele.

I think 10-10 next year isn't unlikely, and 4th place looks like a ceiling--and I was hoping that at the end of this season we'd see a path to a top 3 finish. 

[MU82]

Marquette has a lot of one dimensional players. Kolek controls the game as a ball handler and play maker, but he's not really a threat to score. Teams have adjusted and not collapsing their defense on his drive/the pick and roll. Kur and Oso are roll guys on the pick and roll and go to block shots defensively. Teams are keeping their bigs attached to them on the roll. OMax is a straight line driver who doesn't pass out of the drive often at all. Greg, Joplin, and Jones are guys teams are running off the three point line.

Lewis and Morsell are the only multilevel scorers we have, with Kam occasionally being able to get to the rim to score. Morsell is too inconsistent. Lewis is the only one with the ability and consistency to carry the team.

Defensively, teams are attacking the back end of the press again. When they're forced into a half court offense, they're giving MU a taste of their own medicine. Getting into the lane, forcing the defense to collapse, and taking advantage of the defense over helping. Teams are back door cutting on the over help/collapse, and then when the defense rotates on that, the kick to the three is wide open.

The rotation is like 11 guys. They're 18-23 year olds playing twice a week. They're not tired. They're limited and scouted.

Very fair post.

We had a couple of stretches - the 5-0 start and the 8-1 run from 1/4 to 2/2 - during which guys like Morsell, Kolek, O-Max and Elliott took turns playing at levels they had never played at before; Lewis excelled almost every game; we got big contributions from the likes of Kam, Kur and even Joplin; we pulled off some stunning end-of-game plays (Kolek vs Illinois, Elliott vs Hall, Lewis vs Nova); and, let's face it, we might have been a little fortunate at times too.

As you said, everybody knows what we want to do on O and D now, and they're taking away those things or attacking us differently. Our guys also haven't played at the same high level -- Kam and Greg have been spotty from 3, Morsell has 1 great game and 3 meh games, Kolek has been frustrated and even had to be benched, Kuath's face is on the side of a milk carton, Lewis hasn't been automatic, etc. And maybe we've been a little unlucky too.

We can point to games we "should have" won ... and objective folks also can point to games we maybe "should have" lost. It feels like we're about where we should be, record-wise.

We're a decent team that has had some good games, a few great games, and a few bad games. The second half against DePaul was as bad as our guys have played all season, and that's coloring a lot of Scoopers' thinking right now.

Long-term, I'm still bullish on Shaka's program.

[Its DJOver]

At the start of the season, I said there was no reason why MU wouldn't be the Big East middle of the pack. Usually there's 2-3 really good teams that will sweep us, 2-3 really bad teams that we will sweep, and a bunch of teams in the middle where splitting the two games make sense.

To be fair, I thought the two teams that would sweep us would be UConn and Villanova, and the three teams we'd sweep would be DePaul, Butler and Georgetown, and our record would wind up at 11-9. Instead, we swept Villanova, Seton Hall, and Georgetown, and got swept by  UConn and Creighton. Splits with PC, Butler, Xavier, and DePaul (with St. John's still to play).  We're going to finish 10-9 or 11-8, right where I expected.

So from a satisfaction level this year, I'm not disappointed at all. My bigger disappointment with this season is that don't appear to be  as well-positioned for the future as I hoped we would be. 

Creighton was probably our closest peer in terms of rebuilding, and it looks like their frosh-heavy roster is a step ahead of ours.  I dont' see anything that suggests that we're going leapfrog them. Vilanova is reloading, and under Jay Wright probably won't be any worse than they were this year--same as the last decade. UConn is already top 3 in the league largely and accomplished it with talent recruited when they were in a terrible conference.  They're showing a talent upgrade, reaping the benefit of Big East membership on the recruiting trail. 

Would anyone argue that based on what we see right now, those three teams are likely to finish 1/2/3 in the 2023 Big East season, and all three more likely to sweep us than not? 

Where do our wins come from?  The first six come from sweeping Georgetown, Butler, and a rebuilding Providence.  And the next four are splits with an improving DePaul, always tough St. Johns, our nemesis Seton Hall and the enigmatic Xavier (who will have significantly more raw talent but probably still be coached by Travis "Wojo" Steele.

I think 10-10 next year isn't unlikely, and 4th place looks like a ceiling--and I was hoping that at the end of this season we'd see a path to a top 3 finish.

You're worried about conference play next year already? Let's finish this year, then see who leaves, then see who comes via the portal, then see what our non-conference schedule looks like, then see how much good weight some of the young players can put on, then see how the incoming freshman look, then see how we do in non-conference next year, then we can start worrying about conference games next year. You're about 7 steps ahead, a ton can happen in a full calendar year.

[MU82]

You're worried about conference play next year already? Let's finish this year, then see who leaves, then see who comes via the portal, then see what our non-conference schedule looks like, then see how much good weight some of the young players can put on, then see how the incoming freshman look, then see how we do in non-conference next year, then we can start worrying about conference games next year. You're about 7 steps ahead, a ton can happen in a full calendar year.

Exactly. This is the era of roster turnover. We don't know who will be on our team, and we know even less about who will be on the rest of the Big East's teams.

[PointWarrior]

It's like the Progressive commercials, let's not start on the COLE on next season before this season is even over.

Exactly. This is the era of roster turnover. We don't know who will be on our team, and we know even less about who will be on the rest of the Big East's teams.

[Newsdreams]

It's like the Progressive commercials, let's not start on the COLE on next season before this season is even over.

COLEslaw

[Elonsmusk]

I have no doubt Shaka has this program pointed in the right direction.  Even with a loss tomorrow, 10-9 is far better than I expected this group to be.  Its been a fun year.  I certainly didn't expect Justin to become a legitimate 1st round NBA talent and BE 1st teamer. That's helped a lot.  Morsell has been up and down and largely what I expected - perhaps a tad better of offense, but not quite as good of a defender as billed. Kam has been a surprise at the times.  The rest of the roster has largely been what I expected - a bunch of role players and younger guys trying to find their way, none of them consistently producing.  Some nice upside in OMax and Oso that I certainly look forward to down the road.

All in all, its really hard to look at this season as a whole and be disappointed.  We're a lock for the NCAA tournament - yes, even if they lose 2 more in a row, they're going to get in. I am pleased.  Just hope we can get a bit more excitement before its all over.  Would suck to finish the season with whimper, especially with no baseball to look forward to.

Solid post about MU hoops season.  But, people still look forward to baseball season?  Will they be implementing a pitch clock in 2022?   

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Solid post about MU hoops season.  But, people still look forward to baseball season?  Will they be implementing a pitch clock in 2022?

Baseball will always be my main passion. Sounds like a pitch clock will prob arrive in 23. I don't really give a crap about any of that noise tho. I love the game - 10 minute shorter game time due to a pitch clock doesn't mean Jack squat to me. So many casual fans that want all these changes - shorter season, bigger playoffs, quicker games, shorter extra innings, etc aren't really baseball fans, so who really cares. Baseball shouldn't be catering to people that don't care anyway. JMO. 

[MU82]

Baseball will always be my main passion. Sounds like a pitch clock will prob arrive in 23. I don't really give a crap about any of that noise tho. I love the game - 10 minute shorter game time due to a pitch clock doesn't mean Jack squat to me. So many casual fans that want all these changes - shorter season, bigger playoffs, quicker games, shorter extra innings, etc aren't really baseball fans, so who really cares. Baseball shouldn't be catering to people that don't care anyway. JMO.

MLB franchise owners want many of these things. Bigger playoffs, for example, has been one of the main sticking points in the CBA negotiations - owners want it, the union doesn't.

Also, I don't think baseball can afford to cater only to rabid fans, or else the game would die.

That'll be my last comment on it here. We obviously should be discussing this on the baseball board. (And I know you're not the one who brought it up here.)

[The Equalizer]

You're worried about conference play next year already? Let's finish this year, then see who leaves, then see who comes via the portal, then see what our non-conference schedule looks like, then see how much good weight some of the young players can put on, then see how the incoming freshman look, then see how we do in non-conference next year, then we can start worrying about conference games next year. You're about 7 steps ahead, a ton can happen in a full calendar year.

As I recall, at the start of the year, one of if not THE major purpose of this season was to prepare us for success next season and beyond. Get the right players in place, build culture, etc.  Nobody expected success this year. It was all about the future.

Did you forget all that, or do I need to link to some of the multitudes of threads and comments that make that very point?  Who knows--maybe you made some of them.

So now that we're at the end of the year, how do you make any reasonable evaluation as to whether this season is a success or disappointment without discussing how we performed against one of, if not our primary goals?

[PointWarrior]

Some of us thought they would be great defensively and routinely score in the 50's - neither which were true.

Some of us thought they would contend for a tourney bid - that may still happen.

Some of us thought it's all about the process and progression - they seem to be in reverse on this one. 

[NolongerWarriors]

Even if MU lost every game from now on, it's still pretty much what was expected overall.

The problem, imo, is that the talent level isn't even as strong as what Wojo brought in.  And the recruits for next year so far look pretty mediocre.

[Its DJOver]

As I recall, at the start of the year, one of if not THE major purpose of this season was to prepare us for success next season and beyond. Get the right players in place, build culture, etc.  Nobody expected success this year. It was all about the future.

Did you forget all that, or do I need to link to some of the multitudes of threads and comments that make that very point?  Who knows--maybe you made some of them.

So now that we're at the end of the year, how do you make any reasonable evaluation as to whether this season is a success or disappointment without discussing how we performed against one of, if not our primary goals?

The years not over, currently an "incomplete" as far as I'm concerned. Bump this thread in a month.

[lawdog77]

The problem, imo, is that the talent level isn't even as strong as what Wojo brought in.  And the recruits for next year so far look pretty mediocre.

Sean Jones is pretty impressive
https://twitter.com/i/status/1500184464034570246

[wadesworld]

Sean Jones is pretty impressive
https://twitter.com/i/status/1500184464034570246

Hope he's ready to start next year.

[PointWarrior]

Is this game still a part of "Feb Fade" or is now a part of "BEast Tourney Suckage"?

[YaBlueIt]

Is this game still a part of "Feb Fade" or is now a part of "BEast Tourney Suckage"?

Yes.

[goldeneagle91114]

See my first post of the thread. Sadly this team has not made any adjustments in February or March. We haven't Beat a tournament team since February 2nd and are 0-6 outside of Milwaukee. This by definition is a Feb Fade.

Still surprised so many jumped down my throat 2 months ago. I wasn't a complete pessimist, I just saw real issues that I was concerned would t be fixed this year

[CountryRoads]

See my first post of the thread. Sadly this team has not made any adjustments in February or March. We haven't Beat a tournament team since February 2nd and are 0-6 outside of Milwaukee. This by definition is a Feb Fade.

Still surprised so many jumped down my throat 2 months ago. I wasn't a complete pessimist, I just saw real issues that I was concerned would t be fixed this year

Unfortunately, you were right.