Cop shot somewhere in SE Wisconsin

[TSmith34, Inc.]

That said, the idea that this was a planned, armed attempt to overthrow the government (a drum banged over and over and over by some politicians, some media members and some Scoopers) is on its face absurd to me.

Lenny man, THEY.PUBLISHED.A.POWERPOINT on exactly how they were going to overturn the election. The rioters didn't just spontaneously show up, they spent weeks organizing the "rally" and calling for people to show up. The endgame was to disrupt the official tally of the electoral college, and after Pence refused to play the part assigned him, Trump let loose the rioters.

You don't have to take my word for it, all of this is easily available information and part of the public record, and news reports on these facts are all over. I mean, just read the powerpoint.

You may think it is absurd, but all you have to do is read the information.

[JWags85]

Devils advocate...this feels like quibbling over "planned". 

One side says "it was planned" aka it was not spontaneous, there was messaging and planning and communication.  Groups took directives from Trump or the PBs or whoever.  Weapons were found in the mob of various sorts, thus it was armed.

The "it wasn't planned/armed" stance would be it wasn't some military precision coup with armed commandos/militias/tactics.  Aka this was more a loosely coordinated mob unleashed on the Capitol to cause chaos/destruction/etc...

I think both sides here have a point.  As terrifying as it is, given the amount of military trained, Spec Ops masquerading, COD festishizing lunatics there are in the Trump sphere, I think a truly coordinated and strategized tactical attack/raid on the Capitol would have been more precise, more impactful, and shudder, more successful.

Also, FWIW, there is some dishonesty here about people claiming nobody is downplaying the BLM-fueled riots that summer.  Anyone who immediately calls Jan 6 into play the minute its brought up is doing just that.  The same people that mock "very fine people on both sides" do it.  There is this idea that since they were centered in a positive message, breaking a few eggs to make an omelet is fine...cause at least they weren't trying to stage a coup.

[MUBurrow]

Lenny man, THEY.PUBLISHED.A.POWERPOINT on exactly how they were going to overturn the election.

Little did they know they lacked the support of the one man they needed to change the country forever...

[Pakuni]

Just because it was planned poorly and executed even more poorly - hardly a surprise given the cast of buffoons taking part* - doesn't mean it wasn't planned or ought to be brushed off as something not serious.

* Let's not forget that one of the main organizers here shot his own damn eye out because he got careless with a loaded gun

[tower912]

I said then, I say now.... I support the constitutionally protected right to peaceful protest.    I condemn violence and destruction of property.   

Especially when I have to clean up after it.   

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Little did they know they lacked the support of the one man they needed to change the country forever...

Wojo could have recruited very highly thought of insurrectionists, but they would have performed more and more poorly as the coup went on.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

The "it wasn't planned/armed" stance would be it wasn't some military precision coup with armed commandos/militias/tactics.  Aka this was more a loosely coordinated mob unleashed on the Capitol to cause chaos/destruction/etc...

I think both sides here have a point.  As terrifying as it is, given the amount of military trained, Spec Ops masquerading, COD festishizing lunatics there are in the Trump sphere, I think a truly coordinated and strategized tactical attack/raid on the Capitol would have been more precise, more impactful, and shudder, more successful.

You can argue what does or does not constitute military precision in your mind, but that's exactly what the white nationalist groups were trying to do, complete with their tactical combat gear and communications. And, they were unleased with a very specific goal in mind--not to cause chaos or destruction specifically, but rather to prevent the certification. Chaos and destruction were just a by-product.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/oath-keepers-sedition-case-major-220307290.html
"All 19 defendants charged in the three Oath Keepers cases are accused of trying to obstruct Congress’s certification of the Electoral College results. Two of the cases allege conspiracies. The seditious conspiracy indictment accuses Rhodes and his 10 codefendants of being part of a plot to use force to stop the transfer of power from former president Donald Trump to President Joe Biden. Seditious conspiracy sweeps more broadly than the original conspiracy count; the former delves into the alleged anti-government motivations of defendants, while the latter focuses more on the practicalities of alleged planning by the Oath Keepers to attack the Capitol on Jan. 6."

‘Wait for the 6th When We Are All in DC to Insurrection’: New Communications Indicate Coordination Between Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, and Three-Percenters
https://lawandcrime.com/u-s-capitol-siege/wait-for-the-6th-when-we-are-all-in-dc-to-insurrection-new-communications-indicate-coordination-between-oath-keepers-proud-boys-and-three-percenters/

How the Proud Boys took a leading role in Capitol insurrection
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Proud+Boys+at+insurrection&&view=detail&mid=D199EA90E568E596D003D199EA90E568E596D003&&FORM=VDRVRV

[tower912]

Brown shirts.

[Lennys Tap]

Devils advocate...this feels like quibbling over "planned". 

One side says "it was planned" aka it was not spontaneous, there was messaging and planning and communication.  Groups took directives from Trump or the PBs or whoever.  Weapons were found in the mob of various sorts, thus it was armed.

The "it wasn't planned/armed" stance would be it wasn't some military precision coup with armed commandos/militias/tactics.  Aka this was more a loosely coordinated mob unleashed on the Capitol to cause chaos/destruction/etc...

I think both sides here have a point.  As terrifying as it is, given the amount of military trained, Spec Ops masquerading, COD festishizing lunatics there are in the Trump sphere, I think a truly coordinated and strategized tactical attack/raid on the Capitol would have been more precise, more impactful, and shudder, more successful.

Also, FWIW, there is some dishonesty here about people claiming nobody is downplaying the BLM-fueled riots that summer.  Anyone who immediately calls Jan 6 into play the minute its brought up is doing just that.  The same people that mock "very fine people on both sides" do it.  There is this idea that since they were centered in a positive message, breaking a few eggs to make an omelet is fine...cause at least they weren't trying to stage a coup.

Well said.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There is this idea that since they were centered in a positive message, breaking a few eggs to make an omelet is fine...cause at least they weren't trying to stage a coup.

But doesn't this matter? I can understand and respect anger that stems from generations of oppression and the sincere belief that the police (who are government employees) are targeting and killing members of their community (I have no respect for opportunists who use protests as cover for committing acts of violence). I don't condone those who expressed it in the form of violence, but I appreciate their righteous indignation. I cannot say the same about people whose anger stems from their preferred presidential candidate losing an election.

MLK never participated in a riot. He also never denounced them as immoral. King referred to riots as "a language of the unheard" and recognized that the only way to stop rioting was to address the injustice that sparked the rioting in the first place. All rioters should be held accountable...but that needs to be coupled with meaningful change to address the injustices and disparities in our country, otherwise it will just lead to more rioting in the future.

[The Lens]

Someone pm Lens. Make sure he's safe, hey?

Just saw this. I am safe.  It happened 6 blocks from my office and I was headed back into work when a co-worker called and said don't bother the place is all taped off.  Our nanny got caught in a MU academic building that was locked down.

We're all good.  We all woke up the next day, I went back to work, she went back to class.   

[MU82]

You're a very smart guy, Wags, so I'm sure you know that the direct involvement of the President of the United States (as well as several United States congresspeople) in a violent coup attempt against the United States government is a whole-'nother-level situation.

The president was absolutely giddy as he watched the mob he unleashed lay siege to the U.S. Capitol: "Look at all the people fighting for me!"

There's never been anything like it in the history of our democratic republic.

We have people here shrugging their shoulders and agreeing with the official Republican plank that 1/6/21 was "legitimate political discourse." We have "law-and-order" people who apparently don't give a rat's rump that 150 cops were injured on 1/6/21 (and a few ended up dying).

I know that political viewpoints make some folks sometimes say dopey stuff -- present company included -- but this casual disregard of the seriousness of what happened on one of the darkest days in U.S. history ... I honestly don't get it.

The events of 1/6/21 should transcend political affiliation. Every American should have been repulsed by it, every American should be pushing for every perpetrator to be punished to the full extent of the law, and every American should want an independent panel to thoroughly investigate exactly what happened -- especially the roles of those in power.

[JWags85]

But doesn't this matter? I can understand and respect anger that stems from generations of oppression and the sincere belief that the police (who are government employees) are targeting and killing members of their community (I have no respect for opportunists who use protests as cover for committing acts of violence). I don't condone those who expressed it in the form of violence, but I appreciate their righteous indignation. I cannot say the same about people whose anger stems from their preferred presidential candidate losing an election.

MLK never participated in a riot. He also never denounced them as immoral. King referred to riots as "a language of the unheard" and recognized that the only way to stop rioting was to address the injustice that sparked the rioting in the first place. All rioters should be held accountable...but that needs to be coupled with meaningful change to address the injustices and disparities in our country, otherwise it will just lead to more rioting in the future.

I don’t think it does, cause I can’t broad brush it all.  I agree with the general BLM mindset and movement 1000%.  I also don’t give a pass to what happened underneath my apartment at the time in NYC where 3 residents of my building got punched in the face/head and countless stores/windows were broken into or demolished.  Those weren't people with righteous indignation, that was awful people using collective anger as an excuse and opportunity for their version of the Purge.

I see marches and collective protests that have collateral damage and I get it.  It’s an overflow of emotion and need to be heard and whatnot.  That doesn’t phase me.  Packs of roving idiots in the meantime, they get no quarter no matter what the root cause.  And those people get pardoned in the “public sentiment” cause they get tied to the well intentioned protestors and organizers.

Same repeated stuff ad nauseam  including a democratic republic drop!

Stop projecting your same speeches and feelings on everything. I never said that. Lenny never said that. Not shrugging their shoulders.  Not applauding them or Trump. I can have my feelings above and still feel that way about the Capitol f**kwits.  There is this need to counterweigh each group cause the participants by and large occupy a different side of the political aisle.  That’s a dumb as defending the actions of any of them.

But also don’t needing every discussion to go right back to 1/6 and screech about it with whataboutism that you otherwise decry. It may be shocking to you, but it’s ok to have different viewpoints on it while still be “repulsed” by it.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

You're a very smart guy, Wags, so I'm sure you know that the direct involvement of the President of the United States (as well as several United States congresspeople) in a violent coup attempt against the United States government is a whole-'nother-level situation.

The president was absolutely giddy as he watched the mob he unleashed lay siege to the U.S. Capitol: "Look at all the people fighting for me!"

There's never been anything like it in the history of our democratic republic.

We have people here shrugging their shoulders and agreeing with the official Republican plank that 1/6/21 was "legitimate political discourse." We have "law-and-order" people who apparently don't give a rat's rump that 150 cops were injured on 1/6/21 (and a few ended up dying).

I know that political viewpoints make some folks sometimes say dopey stuff -- present company included -- but this casual disregard of the seriousness of what happened on one of the darkest days in U.S. history ... I honestly don't get it.

The events of 1/6/21 should transcend political affiliation. Every American should have been repulsed by it, every American should be pushing for every perpetrator to be punished to the full extent of the law, and every American should want an independent panel to thoroughly investigate exactly what happened -- especially the roles of those in power.

You are quickly becoming like shoothoops and his bat signal of anything St Louis related.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Well said.

Read the PowerPoint

[Pakuni]

Not armed. No plan. 

A new video from the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol appears to show two Texas men threatening to drag then-Vice President Mike Pence and other lawmakers through the streets.
The men, Ryan Nichols and Alex Harkrider, were arrested days later in Texas and charged with various crimes, including assault with a dangerous weapon — specifically, a crowbar, baton and pepper spray, according to the indictment against them.[
“I’m hearing reports that Pence caved,” Nichols says in the video. “I’m telling you, if Pence caved, we’re gonna drag motherf***ers through the streets.”
“You f***ing politicians are gonna get f***ing drug through the streets! Because we’re not going to have our f***ing s*** stolen,” Nichols continues. “If you voted for f***ing treason, we’re gonna drag your f***ing ass through the street.”
"Cut their f***ing heads off!" Harkrider yells at one point.
“Cut their head off!” Nichols replies./i]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-video-jan-6-capitol-riot-pence-threat-drag-through-streets-195249884.html

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I think both sides here have a point.  As terrifying as it is, given the amount of military trained, Spec Ops masquerading, COD festishizing lunatics there are in the Trump sphere, I think a truly coordinated and strategized tactical attack/raid on the Capitol would have been more precise, more impactful, and shudder, more successful.

A coordinated, strategized tactical attack:
The Conspirators: The Proud Boys and Oath Keepers on Jan. 6
https://www.lawfareblog.com/conspirators-proud-boys-and-oath-keepers-jan-6

“You won’t see us,” he [Joe Biggs, Proud Boys] wrote. “We are going to smell like you, move like you, and look like you. The only thing we’ll do that’s us is think like us! Jan 6th is gonna be epic.”

The Oath Keepers, for their part, acted in an audaciously open, disciplined and military fashion as they allegedly attacked the heart and symbol of our democratic government. At about 2:39 p.m. that day, when about 14 of them allegedly helped force open the building’s Eastern doors near the Capitol Rotunda, they were decked out in full tactical gear, wearing hard-knuckled gloves, tactical vests or “plate carriers,” camo helmets, ballistic goggles, radios with earpieces, gaiters and boots. Certain individuals allegedly carried bear spray or a coil of paracord. The spectacle of at least 12 Oath Keepers maneuvering up the Capitol steps in “stack formation”—each holding the shoulder of the cadre in front of him or her—became an indelible symbol of the insurrection.

By the time the Oath Keepers first helped the mob force its way into the east side of the Capitol at 2:39 p.m., the western side of the building had already been breached about a half hour earlier, at about 2:13 p.m. The Proud Boys had played a crucial role in accomplishing that feat, according to the government."

[JWags85]

Not armed. No plan. 

A new video from the deadly Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol appears to show two Texas men threatening to drag then-Vice President Mike Pence and other lawmakers through the streets.
The men, Ryan Nichols and Alex Harkrider, were arrested days later in Texas and charged with various crimes, including assault with a dangerous weapon — specifically, a crowbar, baton and pepper spray, according to the indictment against them.[
“I’m hearing reports that Pence caved,” Nichols says in the video. “I’m telling you, if Pence caved, we’re gonna drag motherf***ers through the streets.”
“You f***ing politicians are gonna get f***ing drug through the streets! Because we’re not going to have our f***ing s*** stolen,” Nichols continues. “If you voted for f***ing treason, we’re gonna drag your f***ing ass through the street.”
"Cut their f***ing heads off!" Harkrider yells at one point.
“Cut their head off!” Nichols replies./i]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/new-video-jan-6-capitol-riot-pence-threat-drag-through-streets-195249884.html

Not sure that really adds anything or is anything illuminating.  Never in my post did I imply they were completely unarmed or they randomly showed up.

A coordinated, strategized tactical attack:
The Conspirators: The Proud Boys and Oath Keepers on Jan. 6
https://www.lawfareblog.com/conspirators-proud-boys-and-oath-keepers-jan-6

“You won’t see us,” he [Joe Biggs, Proud Boys] wrote. “We are going to smell like you, move like you, and look like you. The only thing we’ll do that’s us is think like us! Jan 6th is gonna be epic.”

The Oath Keepers, for their part, acted in an audaciously open, disciplined and military fashion as they allegedly attacked the heart and symbol of our democratic government. At about 2:39 p.m. that day, when about 14 of them allegedly helped force open the building’s Eastern doors near the Capitol Rotunda, they were decked out in full tactical gear, wearing hard-knuckled gloves, tactical vests or “plate carriers,” camo helmets, ballistic goggles, radios with earpieces, gaiters and boots. Certain individuals allegedly carried bear spray or a coil of paracord. The spectacle of at least 12 Oath Keepers maneuvering up the Capitol steps in “stack formation”—each holding the shoulder of the cadre in front of him or her—became an indelible symbol of the insurrection.

By the time the Oath Keepers first helped the mob force its way into the east side of the Capitol at 2:39 p.m., the western side of the building had already been breached about a half hour earlier, at about 2:13 p.m. The Proud Boys had played a crucial role in accomplishing that feat, according to the government."

A bunch of "allegedly" from a random blog?  I'm not saying you're wrong but a some cobbled together post from a financial journalist isn't the end all be all source.

I'm sure I'll now be labeled a MAGA sympathizer who is downplaying the attack 

[Lennys Tap]

I don’t think it does, cause I can’t broad brush it all.  I agree with the general BLM mindset and movement 1000%.  I also don’t give a pass to what happened underneath my apartment at the time in NYC where 3 residents of my building got punched in the face/head and countless stores/windows were broken into or demolished.  Those weren't people with righteous indignation, that was awful people using collective anger as an excuse and opportunity for their version of the Purge.

I see marches and collective protests that have collateral damage and I get it.  It’s an overflow of emotion and need to be heard and whatnot.  That doesn’t phase me.  Packs of roving idiots in the meantime, they get no quarter no matter what the root cause.  And those people get pardoned in the “public sentiment” cause they get tied to the well intentioned protestors and organizers.


Stop projecting your same speeches and feelings on everything. I never said that. Lenny never said that. Not shrugging their shoulders.  Not applauding them or Trump. I can have my feelings above and still feel that way about the Capitol f**kwits.  There is this need to counterweigh each group cause the participants by and large occupy a different side of the political aisle.  That’s a dumb as defending the actions of any of them.

But also don’t needing every discussion to go right back to 1/6 and screech about it with whataboutism that you otherwise decry. It may be shocking to you, but it’s ok to have different viewpoints on it while still be “repulsed” by it.

This. Again. Thank you.

[Hards Alumni]

You are quickly becoming like shoothoops and his bat signal of anything St Louis related.

So ironic.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

A bunch of "allegedly" from a random blog?  I'm not saying you're wrong but a some cobbled together post from a financial journalist isn't the end all be all source.

I'm sure I'll now be labeled a MAGA sympathizer who is downplaying the attack 

Wags, are you seriously going to try to say that the information presented is inaccurate in some way? First of all, the guy is a lawyer, so of course he is going to correctly say “allegedly” since none of them have gone to trial yet. But second, none of this is roqqet level conspiracy theories, it is all publicly available information.

Here is the indictment of the leader of the Oath Keepers:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download


“d. Organizing trainings to teach and learn paramilitary combat tactics;
e. Bringing and contributing firearms, ammunition, and related equipment to the QRF staging areas outside Washington, D.C.;
f. Bringing and contributing paramilitary gear, weapons, and supplies-including knives, batons, camouflaged combat uniforms, tactical vests with plates, helmets, eye protection, and radio equipment-to the Capitol grounds;
g. Breaching and attempting to take control of the Capitol grounds and building on January 6, 2021, in an effort to prevent, hinder, and delay the Certification of the Electoral College vote;
On November 9, 2020, RHODES held a private GoToMeeting-an online meeting !site that allows users to host conference calls and video conferences via the Internet-limited to !Oath Keepers members, titled, "Oath Keepers National Call - Members Only," which was ! !attended by MEGGS, HARRELSON, WATKINS, HACKETT, and others, including a person i !whom RHODES appointed as the operation leader for January 6, 2021. During the meeting, !RHODES outlined a plan to stop the lawful transfer ofpresidential power, including preparations lfor the use offorce, and urged those listening to participate.

There is a lot more, meticulously detailed, if you read through the indictment.

Here is the indictment of the Proud Boys that details their coordinated efforts including their advanced planning and the gear that brought along with them:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1377586/download


And there are, of course, literally thousands of pictures of the insurrectionists in their paramilitary tactical gear.

[Pakuni]

Not sure that really adds anything or is anything illuminating.  Never in my post did I imply they were completely unarmed or they randomly showed up.

Maybe you're not the only person who posts here.
Maybe others here have said, on more than one occasion, that the rioters were unarmed and there was no plan.

[JWags85]

Maybe you're not the only person who posts here.
Maybe others here have said, on more than one occasion, that the rioters were unarmed and there was no plan.

Seemed directly in response to the point discussion Lenny and I were trying to have and not wild conspiracy theories or red herrings from some of the usual characters.  But ok

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

You're leaving out the Willard Hotel group assembled Jan 6 to coordinate events.

[Pakuni]

Seemed directly in response to the point discussion Lenny and I were trying to have and not wild conspiracy theories or red herrings from some of the usual characters.  But ok

If I were replying to you, I would have .... wait for it ... replied to you.