Duane Wilson has some thoughts on Buzz

[Galway Eagle]

O'Neill accomplished those things just before Crean arrived. The poster said that Crean inherited a program in a bad or mediocre place.

6years is a long time in college sports... by that logic Shaka came into a program that just went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8.

[shoothoops]

6years is a long time in college sports... by that logic Shaka came into a program that just went to back to back sweet 16s and an elite 8.

Sure. It's all relative. It's fair to say Crean didn't inherit the best situation. But MUBB still made the NCAA Tourney a couple of more times in Deane's 5 years and they won 20 plus games 4 of the 5 seasons and so on.

[The Sultan]

O'Neill accomplished those things just before Crean arrived. The poster said that Crean inherited a program in a bad or mediocre place.

Are you forgetting about Mike Deanne?

[tower912]

I think he is.

[Galway Eagle]

Sure. It's all relative. It's fair to say Crean didn't inherit the best situation. But MUBB still made the NCAA Tourney a couple of more times in Deane's 5 years and they won 20 plus games 4 of the 5 seasons and so on.

And MU won 20plus games 3/7 years under Wojo and had a couple more NCAA years under him. Again the comparison to Shaka's situation is there and nobody would say MU hoops was in a good spot when Wojo was axed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TC certainly had a better starting point than KO did...but Mike Deane had a better one than both of them. TC also took Marquette to the next level as a program.

[Galway Eagle]

TC certainly had a better starting point than KO did...but Mike Deane had a better one than both of them. TC also took Marquette to the next level as a program.

Who had a better starting point between Deane and Buzz? I'd say Buzz but I could see a pretty legit argument for Deane since he had Miller, Abraham, McCaskill, and Crawford.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

100% Buzz. Even if you think Deane had the better roster (I'd give it to Buzz) the rest of the program was infinitely better at that point.

[brewcity77]

O'Neill accomplished those things just before Crean arrived. The poster said that Crean inherited a program in a bad or mediocre place.

Tom Crean didn't take over from Kevin O'Neill.

[shoothoops]

And MU won 20plus games 3/7 years under Wojo and had a couple more NCAA years under him. Again the comparison to Shaka's situation is there and nobody would say MU hoops was in a good spot when Wojo was axed.

Sure. I said in one of my previous posts that KO, Crean, and Buzz were more successful at MUBB (in various ways) than Deane and Wojo. A few posts from others seem to not include Buzz with the other two. I would definitely.

We can get deep into the weeds of basketball budgets, doing much more with less and so on with multiple MUBB subjects, or how the past few decades could have been much worse (or better).

As for Shaka, he'll get a fair chance to see what he can do. Annual expectations don't change for me. While I appreciate the long accomplishment goals check list of the other thread, for me it's about winning the league, making the NCAA's, winning while there, other tourney or rival accomplishments. Those are the main things.

As for Duane, I understand his position based on his personal experience.

[Elonsmusk]

100% Buzz. Even if you think Deane had the better roster (I'd give it to Buzz) the rest of the program was infinitely better at that point.

What was left in the program for Buzz in Year 2?  Sure he had 3 great seniors in Wes, Rel, and Dom?  Basically in Year 2 buzz had 1 legit player inherited - Lazar.  Mo and Cubby were marginal at best.

I'm optimistic Shaka will be the best we've had since Al - and he completely made over the roster in Year 1.

[The Sultan]

What was left in the program for Buzz in Year 2?  Sure he had 3 great seniors in Wes, Rel, and Dom?  Basically in Year 2 buzz had 1 legit player inherited - Lazar.  Mo and Cubby were marginal at best.

I'm optimistic Shaka will be the best we've had since Al - and he completely made over the roster in Year 1.

Are we even talking about year 2?  I mean in year three he had even less!

[Pakuni]

What was left in the program for Buzz in Year 2?  Sure he had 3 great seniors in Wes, Rel, and Dom?  Basically in Year 2 buzz had 1 legit player inherited - Lazar.  Mo and Cubby were marginal at best.

If only a head coach had the ability to do anything about his year two roster ...

Another thing no one seems to mention ... Tom Crean left Marquette with Buzz Williams. Had Crean not pushed the administration to pony up for Buzz after his trainwreck season at UNO, he'd have never ever been hired as HC. And we probably would have ended up with the likes of Kevin Stallings or Brad Brownell or (gulp) Keno Davis.
If nothing else, that should convince the Buzz-o-philes that Crean left the program in a better place than his successor.

[Elonsmusk]

If only a head coach had the ability to do anything about his year two roster ...

Another thing no one seems to mention ... Tom Crean left Marquette with Buzz Williams. Had Crean not pushed the administration to pony up for Buzz after his trainwreck season at UNO, he'd have never ever been hired as HC. And we probably would have ended up with the likes of Kevin Stallings or Brad Brownell or (gulp) Keno Davis.
If nothing else, that should convince the Buzz-o-philes that Crean left the program in a better place than his successor.

I have always appreciated what Crean did while at MU.  Had no ill-well toward him for leaving.  However, when resident Crean-o-phile, Chicos Bailbonds/Billy Hoyle started knocking down Buzz and taking all kinds of shots at him?  Was ridiculous.  Buzz put up great results while at MU.  Period.  Reloaded the empty cupbard he was left with in Year 2 and MU never missed a beat.

That all aside..was Buzz quirky AF?  Yes.  Did he push the envelope/edge?  Yes.  Were the same things true of Al McGuire?  Yes.  Just weird how some of our fans want to shat on Buzz, many of whom were ProJos.

[MU82]

I'm just grateful that Tex Winter left the program on such solid footing for Shaka.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm just grateful that Tex Winter left the program on such solid footing for Shaka.

Shakas coming into a program that Jack Nagle literally just brought to the Elite 8. It's in a great spot.

[Dickthedribbler]

crap, I thought this *was* the office. Guess I should check the address on those paystubs.

Speaking of "The Office", was Jenna Fischer cuter than a bug's ear or what?

[Galway Eagle]

Speaking of "The Office", was Jenna Fischer cuter than a bug's ear or what?

Why yes I reckon she was a hot as an old lamp on the stove.

[Billy Hoyle]

If only a head coach had the ability to do anything about his year two roster ...

Another thing no one seems to mention ... Tom Crean left Marquette with Buzz Williams. Had Crean not pushed the administration to pony up for Buzz after his trainwreck season at UNO, he'd have never ever been hired as HC. And we probably would have ended up with the likes of Kevin Stallings or Brad Brownell or (gulp) Keno Davis.
If nothing else, that should convince the Buzz-o-philes that Crean left the program in a better place than his successor.

We would have ended up with Tony Bennett. He accepted the job right after Buzz accepted after a group of alumni flew to Pullman and asked him to reconsider his initial rejection (his wife wanted him to wait for the LSU job). Then we wouldn't have been on the front pages of major newspapers discussing sexual assault, player arrests, violations resulting in the dismissal of assistant coaches, etc.

[jesmu84]

I have always appreciated what Crean did while at MU.  Had no ill-well toward him for leaving.  However, when resident Crean-o-phile, Chicos Bailbonds/Billy Hoyle started knocking down Buzz and taking all kinds of shots at him?  Was ridiculous.  Buzz put up great results while at MU.  Period.  Reloaded the empty cupbard he was left with in Year 2 and MU never missed a beat.

That all aside..was Buzz quirky AF?  Yes.  Did he push the envelope/edge?  Yes.  Were the same things true of Al McGuire?  Yes.  Just weird how some of our fans want to shat on Buzz, many of whom were ProJos.

Covering up sexual assault is beyond "pushing the envelope."

I wasn't around for Al's time, but I suspect he would not have done the same.

[The Sultan]

I don't think it is fair to say that Buzz "covered up sexual assault."  I think he improperly inserted himself into a sexual assault investigation, but from what I heard, that was mostly due to ignorance of Title IX procedures rather than malicious intent.  This is why Tom Cottingham lost his job.

[Pakuni]

We would have ended up with Tony Bennett. He accepted the job right after Buzz accepted after a group of alumni flew to Pullman and asked him to reconsider his initial rejection (his wife wanted him to wait for the LSU job). Then we wouldn't have been on the front pages of major newspapers discussing sexual assault, player arrests, violations resulting in the dismissal of assistant coaches, etc.

Ehh ... I put this in the same Scoop Urban Legend category with "Shaka wanted the job in 2014, but his wife wouldn't let him take it."
You'll forgive me if I'm skeptical of a scenario in which a group of alumni fly cross-country to offer the job to a coach after the athletic director and president had already given it to someone else. And I'm even more skeptical of Tony Bennett accepting a job offered by a group of alumni rather than the AD and president.

[Galway Eagle]

I don't think it is fair to say that Buzz "covered up sexual assault."  I think he improperly inserted himself into a sexual assault investigation, but from what I heard, that was mostly due to ignorance of Title IX procedures rather than malicious intent.  This is why Tom Cottingham lost his job.

Well we do know he gathered the team to get the story straight and reach out to one of the women. That was well reported. I think it then comes down to what does "get the story straight" mean? That could be anything from cover up to trying to simply understand what took place.

[Pakuni]

I have always appreciated what Crean did while at MU.  Had no ill-well toward him for leaving.  However, when resident Crean-o-phile, Chicos Bailbonds/Billy Hoyle started knocking down Buzz and taking all kinds of shots at him?  Was ridiculous.  Buzz put up great results while at MU.  Period.  Reloaded the empty cupbard he was left with in Year 2 and MU never missed a beat.

That all aside..was Buzz quirky AF?  Yes.  Did he push the envelope/edge?  Yes.  Were the same things true of Al McGuire?  Yes.  Just weird how some of our fans want to shat on Buzz, many of whom were ProJos.

I'm not arguing that the Buzz years were anything other than excellent. I have many great memories from those times.
I just don't think Buzz's impact on the trajectory of the program was nearly that of Crean or O'Neill (and obviously Al is in a category of his own).
Three straight Sweet 16s is a notable accomplishment. But on the national scene, it pales compared to a Final Four.
Jimmy Butler and Jae Crowder are outstanding representatives of the program, but they're not crossover stars like Dwyane Wade.
Wining a share of the Big East title is outstanding. Getting invited to the Big East is program-altering.

[The Sultan]

Well we do know he gathered the team to get the story straight and reach out to one of the women. That was well reported. I think it then comes down to what does "get the story straight" mean? That could be anything from cover up to trying to simply understand what took place.

From what I understand, it was more the latter than the former.  Completely inappropriate, and now would be an immediately fire-able offense, but I don't think it rose to the level of a cover up.