Duane Wilson has some thoughts on Buzz

[Jockey]

Bro you “graduated college” and claim to be a “doctor” or “dentist” and you type like absolute dog sh!t every day.

I laughed out loud at this.

[JWags85]

I guess.  That says more about how bad VPI basketball is than it does how good Buzz is though.  Cause I would expect guys who "coach their ass off" in the ACC to do better than Buzz did.

Oh no doubt the bar was low.  But again, a program that won 10 games in conference twice in the decade they were in the ACC before Buzz.  And was at an extremely low point even for them.  He inherited absolute garbage at a really hard place to win.  I'm not saying its a HOF performance, but I think its understated how significant of a move up that was.  Its still a conference with peak Duke, UNC, and UVA during his time there.  Plus Hamilton had FSU firing on all cylinders.  To expect Buzz to just randomly conjure a horrible program into being top 3-4 with those programs in 2-3 years is unrealistic and not a fair comp.  They were a top 10 team for a good chunk of that final season.

Yeah Mike Young seems to be doing just fine too.  Buzz has won 2 tournament games since the 2013 E8.  He had a great run at MU, but it feels like he gets graded on a curve because he's taken two lateral moves since, which is something you don't see great coaches do.

"Just fine"?! 16-16 (7-9) in year one.  15-7 (9-7) in last years weird year where Duke and UNC were down and most of the ACC was bad.  This year he is 8-7 and 0-4 in conference.  Thats not just fine to me.

[Pakuni]

I think we drastically underrate the state Buzz left MU. His last team wasn’t THAT far from making the tournament. A few OT/close games go the other way, and they might have squeaked in. .

Hmmm.
That team finished 93rd in the NCAA's RPI (this is pre-NET). That's VERY far from making the tournament. One or two more wins wouldn't have made a difference.
As for close games going the other way, that team finished 5-6 in games decided by less than five points or overtime, so it seems the close ones went pretty evenly.

[LAZER]

Oh no doubt the bar was low.  But again, a program that won 10 games in conference twice in the decade they were in the ACC before Buzz.  And was at an extremely low point even for them.  He inherited absolute garbage at a really hard place to win.  I'm not saying its a HOF performance, but I think its understated how significant of a move up that was.  Its still a conference with peak Duke, UNC, and UVA during his time there.  Plus Hamilton had FSU firing on all cylinders.  To expect Buzz to just randomly conjure a horrible program into being top 3-4 with those programs in 2-3 years is unrealistic and not a fair comp.  They were a top 10 team for a good chunk of that final season.

"Just fine"?! 16-16 (7-9) in year one.  15-7 (9-7) in last years weird year where Duke and UNC were down and most of the ACC was bad.  This year he is 8-7 and 0-4 in conference.  Thats not just fine to me.

I'd say 16-16 in year one and then an NCAA appearance in year 2 is "fine". It's better than what Buzz has done at A&M.

[jfp61]

I'd say 16-16 in year one and then an NCAA appearance in year 2 is "fine". It's better than what Buzz has done at A&M.

How has this years TAMU team still basically played no one this year. Its wild, they are 3 games into conference play and their best win is ND on a neutral, despite being 14-2.

[Newsdreams]

Which is a bastardized version of Middle English which is a bastardized version of old English which is bastardized Anglo-Frisian which is bastardized west Germanic, which is bastardized Germanic, which is bastardized indo-european.

I don't speak proper Spanish either, bastardized Spanish.

[BCHoopster]

Buzz being a self interested before leaving and kinda being a con man, thats nothing new.

Duane felt like he didnt do enough research and Arizona would have been better for him, I guess that makes some sense. Sits behind TJ McConnel year 1, and probably Gabe York year 2, and plays more year 3-4. Okay i guess. Not sure Arizona was as much of an option for him as he thinks it was but I'll go along with it. I thought Memphis or Mizzou were his next two options.

I mean for him it was mostly injuries. Bounce leaves guys quickly if they get injured. Even freaks like Zion lose bounce real quick. Its not like he was insanely close making the league ever. Dude was at his highest 53 in his class. Even when Duane was recruited, everyone was looking at Diamond stone on his jr/sr year Dominican teams.

.

Saw Duane in high school, he was explosive, good shooter as well. Thought he was better then Bronson Koenig, but he never looked the same after his injuries. Koenig turned out to be a better player.

[jfp61]

.

Saw Duane in high school, he was explosive, good shooter as well. Thought he was better then Bronson Koenig, but he never looked the same after his injuries. Koenig turned out to be a better player.

That's fair. But honestly based on everything i heard was that Koenig was an "pretty boy".

I am happy that Luke Fischer still playing professional ball. I kinda figured at the time he would be the the best of the that 2013 year.

[Viper]

Their win percentages are almost identical (.664 Crean to .668 Buzz), but Crean took over a program in far worse shape.
If we're being honest, Crean and Kevin O'Neill are much more responsible for the current state of MU basketball than Buzz.

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

[Uncle Rico]

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

Crean and KO brought Marquette into the modern era of college basketball.  KO inherited a terrible program and got them back to the tournament along with getting them into the Great Midwest. 

Crean understood the importance of upgrading facilities and helped them seamlessly transition into the Big East.

Buzz took over a program in a power conference.  Buzz was wildly successful and built a program in his image but bolted in fear of a Marquette moving into a lesser Big East. 

[Shooter McGavin]

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

I think he means if KO didn’t bring us out of the dumpster fire we may have been rooting for an inferior team in an inferior conference.  Same for Crean and his success getting the AL built and helping get us into the Big East.  At least I think that is what was meant and it’s hard to argue.

[The Equalizer]

I'm gonna take the guy who had 4 straight over .500 conference seasons, finishing in the top half of the conference each time, in the modern ACC (which every team over him each year was a top 25 team) after taking over a program that won 6 total conference games the year prior...over the guy who had 2 nice years as an Independent and sputtered to the finish.

Buzz left ignominiously and MU fans have a right to be annoyed with it, but the dude coached his ass off in Blacksburg

In the modern ACC, he had two things going for him:

1. The ACC doesn't play a balanced schedule.  In Buzz's best year he went 12-6, and was very lucky with the teams he played twice.  Of the top 8 finishers, he only faced one of them (Virginia) twice.  Of the bottom 5 teams, he faced three of them twice (Georgia Tech, Miami, & Notre Dame).   It's a lot easier to put up the kind of win totals he did when you only had to play Duke, UNC and FSU once each. 

2. The Modern ACC has the equivalent of 3 DePauls. There's a lot of room at the bottom where you can pile up wins, and in his final (and best) season, he tallied 9 of his 12 wins against the bottom six teams.

So good for him--he beat the teams he should have, avoided the upset, and even pulled an upset against Duke. But I wouldn't consider that "coaching his ass off".  Never finished better than 5th place in ACC, and only once better than 7th. 

[brewcity77]

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

After Dukiet, there was consideration about dropping out of D1. KO made us relevant again and led us competitively out of independent status.

Deane thought fan aspirations of being a nationally competitive program were aiming too high, but Crean was the perfect salesman for the program, brought in Wade, got the Final Four, got the Al built, and played a big role in getting us into the Big East. He built the foundation for where we are today.

Deane, Buzz, and Wojo were all caretakers with varied levels of success. KO & Crean were the architects of where we are today.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

Coaches should build the program upon the success from their predecessor. Buzz wouldn't have had the starting point that he did if not for Crean. And Crean wouldn't have had the starting point he did if not for KO (though Deane tried to f*ck it up).

It looked like Buzz was going to build on Crean's success. The first three years of course had fun moments but weren't any better than the Crean years. Then he managed two consecutive 3 seeds in years 4 and 5 and it looked like maybe he could get the program to the next step in its evolution. Then Blue declared, the house of cards fell and we went from a 3 seed to missing the NIT.  A steep drop. To add insult to injury, he left after that year, blowing up a top recruiting class, and left a mess for the next coach to figure out.

So what I think Pakuni was saying, was that KO elevated the program. TC elevated the program. Buzz at best maintained it and I would argue left it in worse shape than he got it. Doesn't mean his accomplishments at MU should be ignored or even that he's a bad coach. Just means he couldn't get us to the next level as program. And to be fair, the better a program gets, the harder it is to move up.

[NolongerWarriors]

I laughed out loud at this.

You laughed out loud at that?

[Pakuni]

not sure I follow. How is Crean, or KO, responsible for MU’s current basketball situation? Buzz was good until his final season. Not sure he has any influence on things 8 yrs later. Wojo was for the most part meh. Now we’re rebuilding from 7 seasons of rebuilding. Hence, where do Crean and KO fit into things currently?

Because Marquette was pretty much at the level of Loyola and Detroit-Mercy when O'Neill arrived and may very well have settled in there permanently had another bad coaching decision been made. He brought the program back from the near dead.
After some backsliding under Mike Deane, Crean came in and raised the program to another level, recruiting some of the best players in school history and getting the team back to a Final Four, and helping to pave the way for entry to the Big East.
Buzz had a great deal of success at MU, but mostly just maintained the status quo. Didn't raise the program to the next (i.e. Villanova or Gonzaga) level, but didn't slide backwards either. Those were good years, but they weren't program-defining years.

[Billy Hoyle]

After Dukiet, there was consideration about dropping out of D1. KO made us relevant again and led us competitively out of independent status.

Deane thought fan aspirations of being a nationally competitive program were aiming too high, but Crean was the perfect salesman for the program, brought in Wade, got the Final Four, got the Al built, and played a big role in getting us into the Big East. He built the foundation for where we are today.

Deane, Buzz, and Wojo were all caretakers with varied levels of success. KO & Crean were the architects of where we are today.

is that fact or rumor? We weren't THAT bad under Dukiet, save for his second season, and we joined a good mid-major conference with like-minded schools. Cords was brought in and the decision was "do we want to be Loyola or Georgetown?" Considering MU had just made the decision to move to the BC and joined a conference I cannot imaging dropping from D1 was ever a consideration.

[MarquetteMike1977]

Buzz bailed because he didn’t believe in the new Big East. He was a complete fake. Higgins in ridiculous looking suits.

Blue and Mayo should have been gone long before they hit the road.

In The Old Big East Buzz made the Big Dance All 5 Years he was in it. 8 NCAA wins, Made 1 Elite 8, 3 Sweet 16s, 4 Round of 32s if you count overlap. Why would anyone run the best coach while at MU besides AL McGuire out. Agree with Billy Hoyle, Fluffy Blue Monster And Lennys Tap. As Fluffy Blue Monster said Buzz was not run out of town. Buzz would be here yet if he wanted. As Billy Hoyle said Buzz bailed since he did not believe in the New Big East for MU. Refs who once nodded at Buzz shook their heads at Buzz.  In the New Big East Buzz did not even make the NIT.

[Pakuni]

In the modern ACC, he had two things going for him:

1. The ACC doesn't play a balanced schedule.  In Buzz's best year he went 12-6, and was very lucky with the teams he played twice.  Of the top 8 finishers, he only faced one of them (Virginia) twice.  Of the bottom 5 teams, he faced three of them twice (Georgia Tech, Miami, & Notre Dame).   It's a lot easier to put up the kind of win totals he did when you only had to play Duke, UNC and FSU once each. 

2. The Modern ACC has the equivalent of 3 DePauls. There's a lot of room at the bottom where you can pile up wins, and in his final (and best) season, he tallied 9 of his 12 wins against the bottom six teams.

So good for him--he beat the teams he should have, avoided the upset, and even pulled an upset against Duke. But I wouldn't consider that "coaching his ass off".  Never finished better than 5th place in ACC, and only once better than 7th.

Also worth noting that the ACC went from a 16-game conference schedule to an 18-game conference schedule a couple of years before Buzz landed at VaTech. More games = more opportunities for wins than his predecessors.

[willie warrior]

I think he means if KO didn’t bring us out of the dumpster fire we may have been rooting for an inferior team in an inferior conference.  Same for Crean and his success getting the AL built and helping get us into the Big East.  At least I think that is what was meant and it’s hard to argue.

Both KO and Crean brought MU out of the Dukiet wilderness. That is indisputable. Wojo=Dukiet put MU back in the wilderness. That is indisputable.

[JWags85]

 

2. The Modern ACC has the equivalent of 3 DePauls. There's a lot of room at the bottom where you can pile up wins, and in his final (and best) season, he tallied 9 of his 12 wins against the bottom six teams.

So good for him--he beat the teams he should have, avoided the upset, and even pulled an upset against Duke. But I wouldn't consider that "coaching his ass off".  Never finished better than 5th place in ACC, and only once better than 7th.

They were Depaul, 10 conference wins in 3 years before him. Agree to disagree, we clearly have different views on how bad that program was and what it became.

 

Buzz had a great deal of success at MU, but mostly just maintained the status quo. Didn't raise the program to the next (i.e. Villanova or Gonzaga) level, but didn't slide backwards either. Those were good years, but they weren't program-defining years.

The status quo? Buzz made more S16s in 3 years than MU had since Al.  Just cause Crean had an amazing run in 03 doesn’t mean Buzz’s run, including a BE title, was just more of the same. That’s like saying Saban held the status quo at Bama cause they already had a bunch of titles and Gene Stallings had one between Bear Bryant and him.

Nobody did more for the program other than Al than KO.  And Crean gave it the marketing push and new look, combined with a perfectly timed/publicized FF run, but no coach since A was better at winning basketball games, including March, than Buzz. Even if he is a phony

[Pakuni]

They were Depaul, 10 conference wins in 3 years before him. Agree to disagree, we clearly have different views on how bad that program was and what it became. 

They weren't DePaul, dude. You're cherrypicking here. They made a tragically bad decision to replace Seth Greenberg with James Johnson, which led to three abyssmal seasons. From 2007 t0 2011, VaTech won 109 games, i.e. 22 a season, under Greenberg. DePaul has had one 20-win in the last 15 years.

The status quo? Buzz made more S16s in 3 years than MU had since Al.  Just cause Crean had an amazing run in 03 doesn’t mean Buzz’s run, including a BE title, was just more of the same.

Yeah, it's exactly what it means. A Final Four > 10 Sweet 16s.
Though, I admit, every time I'm in the Fiserv I gaze up in awe at those Sweet 16 banners.

Nobody did more for the program other than Al than KO.  And Crean gave it the marketing push and new look, combined with a perfectly timed/publicized FF run, but no coach since A was better at winning basketball games, including March, than Buzz. Even if he is a phony

But this isn't really true. Their winning percentages at MU were nearly identical. Throw out TC's first season, when he had zero of his own recruits and a, shall we say, roster lacking in talent (John Mueller and John Cliff were starters!) Crean has a definite edge, .681 to .668.

[Elonsmusk]

Yeah Mike Young seems to be doing just fine too.  Buzz has won 2 tournament games since the 2013 E8.  He had a great run at MU, but it feels like he gets graded on a curve because he's taken two lateral moves since, which is something you don't see great coaches do.

Buzz was to VaTech as to what Kevin O'Neill was to Marquette.  Debating if Buzz is a very good basketball coach is silly.

Anyone care to think what would have happened if Wojo came in after Crean?  Think that team would have thrived?  For the 100th time too, Buzz left Wojo 7 Top 100 kids.  Wojo was a horsecrap coach, that's why he finished 154 in his first year at MU, and why his best player transferred out.

The fact Wojo got blown out by 17 and 32 in his two NCAA tourney appearances with a lot of talent on those rosters tells you all you need to know.  FIGHT!  PLAY ANGRY!  COMPETE, COMPETE, COMPETE.  Total meathead.

[Uncle Rico]

Buzz was to VaTech as to what Kevin O'Neill was to Marquette.  Debating if Buzz is a very good basketball coach is silly.

Anyone care to think what would have happened if Wojo came in after Crean?  Think that team would have thrived?  For the 100th time too, Buzz left Wojo 7 Top 100 kids.  Wojo was a horsecrap coach, that's why he finished 154 in his first year at MU, and why his best player transferred out.

The fact Wojo got blown out by 17 and 32 in his two NCAA tourney appearances with a lot of talent on those rosters tells you all you need to know.  FIGHT!  PLAY ANGRY!  COMPETE, COMPETE, COMPETE.  Total meathead.

But Duane doesn’t like Buzz and that’s the essence of the thread.

[Elonsmusk]

But Duane doesn’t like Buzz and that’s the essence of the thread.

LOL.  I think we have about 7 posts on Duane and the rest is a pissing match about Buzz's job as an MU coach/merits as a head coach.