The cult of low expectations

[tower912]

We agree on that.   I think some of them are already on this team.    Give it another season.   Assuming they come back. 

[MU82]

I clearly think Kam has more upside than Greg, but GE is 14/31 from 3.   I struggle labelling Kam as a three point shooter, but not Greg, when he is shooting significantly worse.

And if it were only this season, I'd say, sure, it could be a fluke. But it's not. 45.5% last season, 42.8% at Marquette, and a great shooter in HS if I remember Elliott's recruiting profile correctly.

Not sure why Goose has picked this hill to die on.

We have different definitions of three point shooters. Kam Jones is the only true three point guy on the team, IMO. Very seldom will you ever see a "real" three point guy miss badly, GE misses badly on a fairly regular basis.

First, Kam has clanked plenty of 3s this season. By your definition then, he's not a 3-point shooter. Again, that's too silly for you, Goose.

BTW, I really, really like Kam and am very excited about his future. On more than one occasion, I've said on Scoop that I wouldn't be surprised if he emerges as our go-to guy. I hope, long-term, Kam puts up even better 3-point numbers than Greg has -- though 45% is a high bar -- and I have little doubt that he will be the better player. Actually, he already is a better player, and his PT reflects that.

It's OK to like both players, to want them both to succeed ... and to admit a 45% 3-point shooter is a 3-point shooter.

[Goose]

82

It is like watching a guy shoot free throws, you can tell pretty quickly if the guy can shoot them or not.  I feel pretty confident on how I define a three-point guy and they are specialists. I do not think Greg is a specialist.

Speaking of free throw shooting, my confidence on overall shooting stems from watching our guys shot free throws. All of them look comfortable on the line and that needs to carry over to taking shots in live action.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

82

It is like watching a guy shoot free throws, you can tell pretty quickly if the guy can shoot them or not.  I feel pretty confident on how I define a three-point guy and they are specialists. I do not think Greg is a specialist.

No one said he was a specialist.  It was your labelling Kam as a "three point shooter" even though he is significantly worse statistically than Greg, who you have said isn't a three point shooter.  That doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Goose]

Fluff

Game on the line and we need a three pointer, give me Kam seven days a week over Greg.

[Its DJOver]

I remember when Kam was shooting 22% from three after the first 4 games of the season wondering why he was shooting so much, because there were more “ugly misses” than makes. Then he went 4-6 against WVU. Kam, like Greg, like all “three point shooters” will have games like last night, and will have games where they go 0 or 1 for __. Big games are nice, don’t get me wrong, but consistency and confidence are very important in young players too.

[tower912]

Get his own 3, Kam.   Run a set and have Greg catch and shoot, Greg.   

[PGsHeroes32]

I can’t believe this is still going.

There are things that can be argued. Like LeBron vs MJ or McDonald’s vs BK

Greg as a 3 pt shooter is not debateable.

[StillAWarrior]

Fluff

Game on the line and we need a three pointer, give me Kam seven days a week over Greg.

I'm working really hard to keep track of Goose's changing definitions of a real "three point shooter" over the last hour or so:

• Very seldom misses badly;
• Other teams draft a defense to stop from taking threes;
• Crazy range;
• A specialist.

Notably absent: making a high percentage of three point shots.

[Goose]

Guys,

Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.

Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.

[DoctorV]

Get his own 3, Kam.   Run a set and have Greg catch and shoot, Greg.

I like when Greg shoots 3s, especially from the corner. I actually consider that one of MUs highest success plays if you had to create such a metric.

I like when Kam shoots 3s, from pretty much anywhere.

I agree with the above take, I’d rather have Greg in that catch and shoot spot right now but Kam if we are talking off the dribble or a more difficult guarded/prayer 3.

Next year it’ll be Kam for both I would imagine.

As an aside, I’ve said it before but no one seems to have agreed with me then and no one probably agrees now- I actually think Justin’s 3P shot/stroke looks pretty good. The results aren’t there and we all obviously prefer he does his work in the block or with the drive, things closer to the hoop, but I can see him becoming an “effective enough” 3P shooter to compliment the rest of his game.

Kolek can truly only get better at this point but he’s a big wild card imo.

Prosper has looked much better and I really think it’ll be important for his overall game that he keeps improving, I just don’t see him ever becoming a very good/consistent 3P shooter. Serviceable to above average would really help out his other tools, make defenses have to respect him so he can effectively dribble drive.

Joplin should and I think will become an excellent 3P shooter and I think Emarion can become pretty good too.

[StillAWarrior]

Guys,

Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.

Best weapon =/= three point shooter.

The difference here is that nobody is arguing that Kam isn't a three point shooter. I think he is. As is Greg by any reasonable definition.

[StillAWarrior]

It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.

Personally, I'm interested in this one too. Anybody who wants to take the "Theo was a better shot blocker" side of that debate should get the ban hammer. And I say this as someone who really liked Theo.

[Goose]

StillaWarrior

Plenty on here loved Theo the shot blocker and praised him after every block into the eight row. Now, hopefully they are learning what a shot blocker looks like and how they change the game. Every Kur block the ball is in play and that is how it is supposed to be done. As stupid as the Greg debate has been, I had the same debate last two years over Theo's out of position block skills.

[MU82]

Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.

Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.

It's nothing like John/Kur, and it's not a matter of preferring a certain type of player. It's you pretending that a 45% 3-point shooter isn't a 45% 3-point shooter because the 45% 3-point shooter isn't your cup of tea.

I "prefer" Kam, too. He's a better player, a good shooter, and a true freshman with great potential. But all that preferring doesn't mean that a 45% 3-point shooter isn't a 45% 3-point shooter.

It's typical Scoop stubbornness on your part. But that's cool, Goose, we've all been there.

Loved last night's game! We Are Marquette!

[GooooMarquette]

Maybe I am allowed to just enjoy the ride wherever it takes me?  If that means I have low expectations in people’s eyes, so be it.

Bingo.

I love watching MU hoops, and honestly have no idea where we'll finish. But I'm gonna enjoy the ride until the end...

[Viper]

82

One thing I think we differ on; GE is not a three-point shooter. Kam Jones is a three-point shooter. Just because GE is the best of a bad bunch does not make him into Steph Curry. Hey, I would play a walk on if it gave us a better chance to win and not bashing GE. I just think there are better options more times than not. I am hoping that guys with more upside earn his minutes, simple as that.

I agree that GE is not a 3-pt shooter, but more-so a guy that shoots 3’s. He is better from 3 than Kolek, better than Lewis too, but GE is not necessarily a go-to guy from the 3-spot. Jones is, IMO. And of course, at the rec, I was. 😉

[GooooMarquette]

As an aside, I’ve said it before but no one seems to have agreed with me then and no one probably agrees now- I actually think Justin’s 3P shot/stroke looks pretty good. The results aren’t there and we all obviously prefer he does his work in the block or with the drive, things closer to the hoop, but I can see him becoming an “effective enough” 3P shooter to compliment the rest of his game.

I agree that he has a decent stroke and that his 3-pt shot can be an asset, in limited circumstances. Like if another team is zoning us and blanketing guys like Greg and Kam on the perimeter and we need to open things up. But when his midrange and inside games are so effective and efficient, I certainly don't want him camping outside the arc or looking for threes against man-to-man.

[BallBoy]

tower

Justify a point? I think GE is the second best of a bad bunch of shooters, which is fine. IMO, we will see far better shooters down the road in this offense.

I like how the thread started with someone saying based on the current team we should raise our expectations and that people with low expectations suck, yet we are bashing the team because they are a bunch of crappy shooters. I wonder why people's expectations for this year are tempered. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

I like how the thread started with someone saying based on the current team we should raise our expectations and that people with low expectations suck, yet we are bashing the team because they are a bunch of crappy shooters. I wonder why people's expectations for this year are tempered.

Scoop needs less dentists and more optometrists. It's collective vision is cross eyed.

[dgies9156]

We're all spoiled.

For years, we had Markus Howard, who could jack a three-pointer up from mid-court and hit.

Before that, we had Andrew Rowsey and Matt Carlino, both of whom were not afraid to jack it up from the hash marks and swish it.

They couldn't play defense to save their lives. Now we have defense and we're looking for Markus.

Gang, if we get a guard who can play defense and hit with the proficiency of Markus, our burger boy will be a lottery pick.

What I liked about Providence was we "finally grew a pair." After years of watching Wojo's Wingmen race down the floor and jack a three, we now have some guards who can drive the middle, penetrate and pass off or jam the ball down the bucket. Yeah, we get tempted by the three but, hopefully, we know we won't win going down and playing hero ball (and not the good kind featuring Tyler and Herro).

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Guys,

Just curious, if we are a three-point shooting offense than why does Shaka not have our best weapon shooting them non stop? Aside from UCLA, in a blowout, he has not shot many three's or been that effective. I am guessing but over the past 4-5 games he is shooting on par with the rest of the team % wise.

Will add, more interested in the win last night than debating if GE is a three-point wizard. It is kind of like debating Theo John the shot blocker vs. Kur the shot blocker. Everyone has a preference in type of player they like.

Kam averages exactly one more attempt per 40 minutes than Greg does.  Kam just plays more because of Greg's limitations on defense.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Fluff

Kam is born three-point shooter. That spin move was big time and the shot was pure money. Greg has to be wide open and set to be effective. Great shooters do not need space and can pull the trigger in a split second. Plus, great three-point guys have crazy range. I would not be pulling for Greg to be taking shots five feet behind the line. The game has changed and every on here should know firsthand due to Howard and Rowsey. Those guys were experts, GE is better than his teammates, nothing more.

Did you pull something from stretching so hard to make this argument? 

[brewcity77]

StillaWarrior

Plenty on here loved Theo the shot blocker and praised him after every block into the eight row. Now, hopefully they are learning what a shot blocker looks like and how they change the game. Every Kur block the ball is in play and that is how it is supposed to be done. As stupid as the Greg debate has been, I had the same debate last two years over Theo's out of position block skills.

Theo was a great help-side shot blocker. He would be that guy who seemingly came out of nowhere to block a shot. Kur can do the help side too, but it seems like he's more likely to block shots straight up. I think it's tougher to block shots against your man because there's not as much of a defensive element of surprise. Of the two, I'll take Kur, but Theo was still one of the best shot blockers I've ever seen in my time following Marquette.

[DoctorV]

Theo was also very emphatic with his blocks while Kur just seems so much more workmanlike.

There are often times where there are several bodies in the area and it’s hard to tell what’s happening and MU ends up with the ball and you just know it had to be Kur, and it was.

It’s also extremely impressive how little he fouls with all those blocks and redirects, he’s definitely got a knack for the skill.

Theo was so much more physically imposing, yet Kur is the better and more impactful defensive inside presence