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Author Topic: 2023 Team Outlook  (Read 174431 times)

tower912

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Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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panda

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1201 on: October 12, 2022, 05:49:58 PM »
How can you say that Keeyan is nowhere near ready but decide that Gold is when we've seen nothing from either?  Keeyan was the one matched up against Oso the most during the scrimmage.  Keeyan has been the one matched up against Oso in most of the hype twitter videos.  We won't need much from him being Oso's backup this year.  If he can't even provide spot backup minutes as a 20 year old with over a year in the program, then honestly, he would have been a wasted scholarship.  I don't expect a ton from him, but I do think he'll be the primary choice for back-up center.

Admittedly the gold projection is mostly speculative based on the fact that keeyan has a smaller basketball pedigree without much experience on the high school/aau level while Gold is much more advanced due to his work with the nba world academy. Gold also impressed me at the scrimmage with his feel for the game. 

But the overall point remains - keeyan isn’t the guy to back up oso. Especially in this league with the likes of Dixon, Nunge, Sanogo, Kalkbrenner, etc. We’ll see more hybrid lineups without a 5 than ones with Keeyan this year.

Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1202 on: October 12, 2022, 05:54:50 PM »
Admittedly the gold projection is mostly speculative based on the fact that keeyan has a smaller basketball pedigree without much experience on the high school/aau level while Gold is much more advanced due to his work with the nba world academy. Gold also impressed me at the scrimmage with his feel for the game. 

But the overall point remains - keeyan isn’t the guy to back up oso. Especially in this league with the likes of Dixon, Nunge, Sanogo, Kalkbrenner, etc. We’ll see more hybrid lineups without a 5 than ones with Keeyan this year.

I very much disagree.  Keeyan spent the last year practicing against Oso and Kur while learning Shaka's offensive and defensive systems. If he can't provide 10 mpg as a backup he's a wasted scholarship.  Every other "returner" is being expected to make a jump (excluding Ellis because of his injury), why is there the assumption that Keeyan will provide nothing?

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1203 on: October 12, 2022, 07:38:02 PM »
I was only comparing Akanno and Joplin as far as Scoopers having unwarranted expectations.  Some predict Joplin will start or be among our leading scorers.  I think he can be a rotation player this year, but I think anything more than that is unrealistic.

I'm glad to hear Joplin is looking good so far.  I agree with Goose, let's see what happens once the season begins.

panda

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1204 on: October 12, 2022, 08:07:44 PM »
I very much disagree.  Keeyan spent the last year practicing against Oso and Kur while learning Shaka's offensive and defensive systems. If he can't provide 10 mpg as a backup he's a wasted scholarship.  Every other "returner" is being expected to make a jump (excluding Ellis because of his injury), why is there the assumption that Keeyan will provide nothing?

Wasted scholarship is quite harsh. I just don’t think he’s ready this season. I also don’t think he was supposed to be ready to contribute this season given Shaka’s pursuit of multiple transfer bigs.

It is what it is. We’ll see in a few weeks. Hope I’m wrong.

Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1205 on: October 12, 2022, 08:46:13 PM »
Wasted scholarship is quite harsh. I just don’t think he’s ready this season. I also don’t think he was supposed to be ready to contribute this season given Shaka’s pursuit of multiple transfer bigs.

It is what it is. We’ll see in a few weeks. Hope I’m wrong.

I don't know how it could be called anything other than a waste of a scholarship.  If someone takes a non medical/injury related red-shirt year, spends the entire year working on their game, getting stronger, learning the system.  Then they come back and can't even produce at a back-up level so much so that a preferred alternative is someone else plays out of position to cover for them, that has to be considered a wasted scholarship.  If Sacar had come off of his red shirt year and been as ineffective as he was as a Freshman, he'd be considered a bust.  If Keeyan can't at least lock down the backup C role, he'll be gone in 23-23 and we won't have to worry about being over our scholarship limit. 

Now I don't expect that to happen. 2 ppg, 3 rpg in about 10 mpg while not looking completely lost on D is about what I'm hoping/expecting from him.  I would also think that his usage would be around 10% and he would lead the team in fg% because he wouldn't take a shot more than 3 feet from the basket, but he will see gametime.

wadesworld

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1206 on: October 12, 2022, 09:06:21 PM »
I don't know how it could be called anything other than a waste of a scholarship.  If someone takes a non medical/injury related red-shirt year, spends the entire year working on their game, getting stronger, learning the system.  Then they come back and can't even produce at a back-up level so much so that a preferred alternative is someone else plays out of position to cover for them, that has to be considered a wasted scholarship.  If Sacar had come off of his red shirt year and been as ineffective as he was as a Freshman, he'd be considered a bust.  If Keeyan can't at least lock down the backup C role, he'll be gone in 23-23 and we won't have to worry about being over our scholarship limit. 

Now I don't expect that to happen. 2 ppg, 3 rpg in about 10 mpg while not looking completely lost on D is about what I'm hoping/expecting from him.  I would also think that his usage would be around 10% and he would lead the team in fg% because he wouldn't take a shot more than 3 feet from the basket, but he will see gametime.

What are you even talking about? There are plenty of players who show nothing through two years (whether redshirting a season or not) and are far from wastes of a scholarship.

Sacar also redshirted his sophomore year after player his freshman year. So that’s a different situation.
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PointWarrior

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1207 on: October 12, 2022, 09:07:03 PM »
Just like Jimmy Butler was a wasted scholarship. 


I very much disagree.  Keeyan spent the last year practicing against Oso and Kur while learning Shaka's offensive and defensive systems. If he can't provide 10 mpg as a backup he's a wasted scholarship.  Every other "returner" is being expected to make a jump (excluding Ellis because of his injury), why is there the assumption that Keeyan will provide nothing?

tower912

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1208 on: October 12, 2022, 09:09:20 PM »
Shaka referenced that Keeyan is in year 2 of a 5 year plan.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1209 on: October 12, 2022, 09:17:26 PM »
What are you even talking about? There are plenty of players who show nothing through two years (whether redshirting a season or not) and are far from wastes of a scholarship.

Sacar also redshirted his sophomore year after player his freshman year. So that’s a different situation.

Really?  You're going to go with nothing?  Go find a player that produced "nothing" for two years and developed into even a role player at a high major level.

Just like Jimmy Butler was a wasted scholarship. 



What are you talking about?  Jimmy produced from day 1.

wadesworld

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1210 on: October 12, 2022, 09:26:24 PM »
Really?  You're going to go with nothing?  Go find a player that produced "nothing" for two years and developed into even a role player at a high major level.

What are you talking about?  Jimmy produced from day 1.

You provided one in this very thread. Sacar. Nothing as a freshman. Redshirt as a sophomore.

It happens a lot.
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Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1211 on: October 12, 2022, 09:36:20 PM »
You provided one in this very thread. Sacar. Nothing as a freshman. Redshirt as a sophomore.

It happens a lot.

Nope, my point is, coming off a red-shirt (like Keeyan), Sacar showed massive improvement.  Had he not shown that improvement, he would have been considered a bust. 

Look, I didn't exactly set a high bar for Keeyan to clear.  2 ppg, 3 rpg, 10 mpg is a less productive line than Sophomore Matt Heldt.  The same Matt that got overrecruited by Theo who wasn't exactly sorely missed when he left.  Hell, with TKO out there he should be able to triple that ppg output just by standing under the basket.  If Keeyan can't clear that incredibly low bar, especially with the current lack of depth at C, then yes, I'm calling him a wasted scholarship.

wadesworld

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1212 on: October 12, 2022, 09:42:35 PM »
Nope, my point is, coming off a red-shirt (like Keeyan), Sacar showed massive improvement.  Had he not shown that improvement, he would have been considered a bust. 

Look, I didn't exactly set a high bar for Keeyan to clear.  2 ppg, 3 rpg, 10 mpg is a less productive line than Sophomore Matt Heldt.  The same Matt that got overrecruited by Theo who wasn't exactly sorely missed when he left.  Hell, with TKO out there he should be able to triple that ppg output just by standing under the basket.  If Keeyan can't clear that incredibly low bar, especially with the current lack of depth at C, then yes, I'm calling him a wasted scholarship.

You asked for someone who produced nothing for two years and then developed even into a roll player at the high major level. Sacar is exactly that. There are many like him.
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Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1213 on: October 12, 2022, 09:47:11 PM »
You asked for someone who produced nothing for two years and then developed even into a roll player at the high major level. Sacar is exactly that. There are many like him.

As you noted

Sacar also redshirted his sophomore year after player his freshman year. So that’s a different situation.

Sacar was a bad example.  Apologies.  My original point.

If someone takes a non medical/injury related red-shirt year, spends the entire year working on their game, getting stronger, learning the system.  Then they come back and can't even produce at a back-up level so much so that a preferred alternative is someone else plays out of position to cover for them, that has to be considered a wasted scholarship.

Remains true.  If Keeyan spent a full year, uninjured, working on his game, and can't clear that incredibly low bar I set, which is apparently higher than a lot of people think of him, then I'd call him a bust.  Again, don't think it's gonna happen, because I guess I'm higher on him than just about everyone else here.

BCHoopster

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1214 on: October 12, 2022, 09:47:21 PM »
You asked for someone who produced nothing for two years and then developed even into a roll player at the high major level. Sacar is exactly that. There are many like him.


I remember 1 player who did nothing for a few years then became player of the year, Frank Kaminsky

Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1215 on: October 12, 2022, 09:49:38 PM »


I remember 1 player who did nothing for a few years then became player of the year, Frank Kaminsky

Frank Kaminsky's Sophomore season. 4ppg, 2 rpg, 10 mpg.  Clears the (completely arbitrary) bar that I set for Keeyan.  Nice try though.

Herman Cain

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1216 on: October 12, 2022, 10:15:54 PM »
I continue to be very enthusiastic about the outlook for this years Warriors Squad.

I think we will see a lot of improvement from all the returning players plus the transfer . As a whole I think this group can do well enough in The Big East to be over .500 in conference .

Not expecting much from the Freshman this season , so if they contribute that would be an upside.
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bilsu

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1217 on: October 13, 2022, 07:27:12 AM »
You asked for someone who produced nothing for two years and then developed even into a roll player at the high major level. Sacar is exactly that. There are many like him.
Ami McCaskil comes to mind. Averaged 4 points as a senior in high school. Redshirted his sophomore year at MU and became a star.

swoopem

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1218 on: October 13, 2022, 07:40:05 AM »
Ami McCaskil comes to mind. Averaged 4 points as a senior in high school. Redshirted his sophomore year at MU and became a star.

He was before my time. He averaged 4 points his senior year of high school??? Damn, that’s crazy
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Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1219 on: October 13, 2022, 08:06:55 AM »
Ami McCaskil comes to mind. Averaged 4 points as a senior in high school. Redshirted his sophomore year at MU and became a star.

An example from 25 years ago that also doesn't meet the criteria I set since coming off his red shirt year he averaged 5 points 3 boards in 11 minutes per game.  Again, my expectations for Keeyan are not exactly sky high.  It just seems like some people are expecting a Yous Mbao level of production out of him.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1220 on: October 13, 2022, 09:28:11 AM »
An example from 25 years ago that also doesn't meet the criteria I set since coming off his red shirt year he averaged 5 points 3 boards in 11 minutes per game.  Again, my expectations for Keeyan are not exactly sky high.  It just seems like some people are expecting a Yous Mbao level of production out of him.

To be fair, you used the term "wasted scholarship" before clarifying your completely arbitrary standard for what a wasted scholarship was. I don't think you realize that 3 rebounds a game in 10 minutes is actually very good for a backup. If they played 30 minutes a game at that rate they would be averaging 9 boards a game.

I do have one example that comes to mind that meets your arbitrary example. Jake Thomas. Redshirt, averaged 9.0 minutes, 1.8 points, 1.0 rebounds his first year off redshirt. Was a starter playing 30 minutes a game the following season. It was for a team that didn't make the NIT but still a high major. There are more examples, but I don't care to comb through old stat sheets.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1221 on: October 13, 2022, 09:38:42 AM »
Scoop called Jimmy Butler a "wasted scholarship" too. I can't wait for Keeyan's long NBA career.

Its DJOver

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1222 on: October 13, 2022, 09:49:21 AM »
To be fair, you used the term "wasted scholarship" before clarifying your completely arbitrary standard for what a wasted scholarship was. I don't think you realize that 3 rebounds a game in 10 minutes is actually very good for a backup. If they played 30 minutes a game at that rate they would be averaging 9 boards a game.

I do have one example that comes to mind that meets your arbitrary example. Jake Thomas. Redshirt, averaged 9.0 minutes, 1.8 points, 1.0 rebounds his first year off redshirt. Was a starter playing 30 minutes a game the following season. It was for a team that didn't make the NIT but still a high major. There are more examples, but I don't care to comb through old stat sheets.

That's one of the problems with arbitrary cutoffs (self inflicted wounds I know), is that every situation is different and should be treated as such.  Right now our depth at C is Oso then a question mark.  I think Keeyan can, should, and will seize that back-up role.  If he can't beat out true freshman Gold or an out of position Omax or Zach, I think it would be a wasted scholarship.  When Jake was coming off of his red-shirt year we had a well established depth chart of Junior and Derrick at the 1, Vander, Trent and Todd as the off guard while also seeing a lot of three guard sets.  The situation was quite different.  Realize that most of the confusion here has been due to my lack of being clear and apologize for that, I just think that everything is set up too perfectly for Keeyan to have that well defined back-up role, and if he can't lock that down it might be best for all parties to move on.

Scoop called Jimmy Butler a "wasted scholarship" too. I can't wait for Keeyan's long NBA career.

Already address and different situations.  I said IF Keeyan can't assume this role THEN he would be a waste.

Goose

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1223 on: October 13, 2022, 10:14:53 AM »
While my expectations for Keeyan are tempered for this season, I definitely do not think it is a wasted schollie. He is a guy that might have a big jump a couple of times during his time at MU.

bilsu

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Re: 2022 Team Outlook
« Reply #1224 on: October 13, 2022, 10:35:25 AM »
I believe we are under the scholarship limit this year and we were also last year. Therefore, he has not been a wasted scholarship. Next year we are one over, so something has to happen.