Kolek

[Goose]

Muggsy

I think down the road the vast majority of MU fans are going to love the style of play at MU, appreciate it and find it very entertaining. It is not going to be pretty more nights than not this year and they are going to have to win some games with heart and luck. I am good with that. I am dreaming about the day when they have a couple of snipers that ring the bell in transition, or better yet, hit the trailer for a dunk because the D committed to guarding the three ball.

[Pakuni]

That's the thing about writing versus speaking to someone. I read your line of: "Marquette has had plenty of success over the years with point guards who weren't great shooters but did other things well. And their lack of shooting/forcing up shots didn't hurt the team" to mean DJ did not shoot a lot.

I can see how I was less than clear.
To clarify, when I say someone is a "shooter," I'm talking about a player that consistently knocks down perimeter shots at an above average rate.
Markus Howard, Andrew Rowsey = shooters
Vander Blue, Dominic James = not shooters

[Goose]

82

I have been preaching having a system and culture since year three of Wojo and I get it and love it. I agree it is very high priority to accomplish that this year and build a foundation. No argument. I am just not going to give Shaka a free pass on getting that done without emphasis on getting to the tournament. Also, as I said earlier, in today's game he might be teaching that system to 5-7 new guys every year. Winning is a habit and that is part of a culture. IMO, that has been accomplished thus far with the 8-3 record.

[MuggsyB]

Muggsy

I think down the road the vast majority of MU fans are going to love the style of play at MU, appreciate it and find it very entertaining. It is not going to be pretty more nights than not this year and they are going to have to win some games with heart and luck. I am good with that. I am dreaming about the day when they have a couple of snipers that ring the bell in transition, or better yet, hit the trailer for a dunk because the D committed to guarding the three ball.

That's totally fair Goose.  I may have gotten carried away.  It usually takes me some time to get over dismal performances. 

[MU82]

82

I have been preaching having a system and culture since year three of Wojo and I get it and love it. I agree it is very high priority to accomplish that this year and build a foundation. No argument. I am just not going to give Shaka a free pass on getting that done without emphasis on getting to the tournament. Also, as I said earlier, in today's game he might be teaching that system to 5-7 new guys every year. Winning is a habit and that is part of a culture. IMO, that has been accomplished thus far with the 8-3 record.

OK, I think we mostly agree. I do think you actually place a greater emphasis on getting to the tournament this year than Shaka does.

Question, though: What does not giving him a free pass entail? I mean, you're not gonna get down on him; he's your guy. You're not gonna stop being a fan; it's a big part of you. There's an implied "or else," but I'm guessing you just mean that you'll be disappointed.

[Goose]

82

Not get down on him? If he proves he cannot get the job done, I will be the first guy to get down on him. My bar for Shaka is higher than anyone on here and I will hold true to that. If you do not think he has put emphasis on the tournament this year, you did not watch the final minutes of the three losses very closely. The only time he has made any adjustments was cutting big deficits late in the three losses.

I will say that the early season success may have adjusted his March thought process. If we were sitting at 5-6 things might have played out differently in those losses.

[rocky_warrior]

The only time he has made any adjustments was cutting big deficits late in the three losses.

Entertaining.  That was more a result of the other teams letting up with the games not in doubt.

[Goose]

Rocky

Yeah, that was other teams letting up and us play catch up. How do you explain the last two minutes of the UCLA game?

[MU82]

82

Not get down on him? If he proves he cannot get the job done, I will be the first guy to get down on him. My bar for Shaka is higher than anyone on here and I will hold true to that. If you do not think he has put emphasis on the tournament this year, you did not watch the final minutes of the three losses very closely. The only time he has made any adjustments was cutting big deficits late in the three losses.

I will say that the early season success may have adjusted his March thought process. If we were sitting at 5-6 things might have played out differently in those losses.

I have little doubt that if you and I were discussing this over a delicious craft beer, we'd be agreeing on 99.9% of this stuff, but I think something's getting lost in the translation here.

I am NOT saying Shaka doesn't care about winning, doesn't care about the tournament, isn't trying to keep us from losing by too much because of the idiotic NET system, etc. In fact, I have said he does care about those things because he is a coach, and coaches are wired to care very much about them.

I am saying that simply is not his priority for this season, which is about building, building, building -- as he himself has said literally dozens of times.

If Shaka "proves he cannot get the job done," you won't be the first to get on his case; you'll be one in a long, long line of Scoopers and other alums. I mean, from the tone of some comments already, several folks are at the head of that line.

I, for one, won't consider missing the NCAA tournament in Year 1 of his program as proof he cannot get the job done. I guess I'm too effen nice. As for you ripping Shaka a new one if we're only an NIT team this season ... I'll believe it when I see it. I hope that's not what you'll do, but it appears to be what you're saying.

[rocky_warrior]

How do you explain the last two minutes of the UCLA game?

In the last 2 minutes the score went from 63-50, to 67-56.  We gained exactly 2 points on them.  Mind blowing, eh!  Here's the play by play to help you out.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2021-22/ucla/boxscore/8974

[Goose]

rocky

You are correct and that happened for a reason. They got it to a manageable deficit and made sure it stayed there. No crazy fouls, let the shot clock wind down and keep the score close. The last two minutes verified to me that Shaka is playing the computer ranking game.

[Pakuni]

I am saying that simply is not his priority for this season, which is about building, building, building -- as he himself has said literally dozens of times.

I'm legitimately confused about why building a culture is seen as a somewhat mutually exclusive proposition to having a tourney team this year. Or how attempting to do one somehow makes the other harder.
Looking at some of the other first-year coaches this year, I don't see them taking the approach that winning right away is counterproductive to long-term success. Chris Beard, TJ Otzelberger, Porter Moser, Mike Woodson, Tommy Lloyd, etc., all seem like they want to win this year.

FWIW, I agree with Goose here. I think Shaka very much wants to win this year, and I don't think he believes winning now in any way impedes long-term success or culture building.
Isn't winning the best way to build a winning culture?

[MU82]

I'm legitimately confused about why building a culture is seen as a somewhat mutually exclusive proposition to having a tourney team this year. Or how attempting to do one somehow makes the other harder.
Looking at some of the other first-year coaches this year, I don't see them taking the approach that winning right away is counterproductive to long-term success. Chris Beard, TJ Otzelberger, Porter Moser, Mike Woodson, Tommy Lloyd, etc., all seem like they want to win this year.

FWIW, I agree with Goose here. I think Shaka very much wants to win this year, and I don't think he believes winning now in any way impedes long-term success or culture building.
Isn't winning the best way to build a winning culture?

Well, let's say that this particular team would have a better chance of winning more Big East games this season if it played a different offensive system, one that didn't involve early 3s being taken by a team that lacks 3-point shooters. But he truly believes this is the system that, long-term, will suit the Marquette program well. 

Or let's say that he might think that benching the PG who can't shoot and who is starting to throw the ball all over the place might help him win a game, but he doesn't want to destroy the kid's confidence for the future.

Those kinds of things ... but I do agree it's a fine line.

I truly think if Shaka was asked, off the record and just shooting the shyte, he would say, "Hell yes, of course I want to win this year, but it's really about next year and the year after that." But maybe not.

[Goose]

82

Winning this year is bucking the odds and making the tournament. Winning in 2-3 sure as hell better look more appealing than that. A winning culture is the foundation of building this program. Truthfully, I think so many on here have forgotten what winning looks like and wants to prepare themselves for the failure that might come down the road. I have not forgotten what it looks like, even after the seven year probation period we had with no NCAA wins.

[MU82]

82

Winning this year is bucking the odds and making the tournament. Winning in 2-3 sure as hell better look more appealing than that. A winning culture is the foundation of building this program. Truthfully, I think so many on here have forgotten what winning looks like and wants to prepare themselves for the failure that might come down the road. I have not forgotten what it looks like, even after the seven year probation period we had with no NCAA wins.

I can't speak for others, but I'm not "preparing" myself for anything. I think I'm just being realistic.

I always want to make the NCAAT and win at least a couple games there. And maybe this team can at least accomplish the first part of that. But I will not consider this season to have been a failure if we don't make the tournament. Here in Year 1 of a brand-new program, I want to see improvement as a team, improvement from individual players, a culture being built, and high-quality recruits/transfers coming aboard. Everything else is gravy.

A team can improve even if it doesn't win for whatever reason (injuries, bad luck, opponents are simply better, etc). We didn't beat UCLA -- didn't come close, really, despite the final score -- but IMHO we improved significantly over the course of the game. I happen to think that's important. This season, as long as Shaka has his group improving and playing hard, the results are secondary to me. In future seasons, I will expect more.

I acknowledge that's just me. If we happen to not make the NCAAT this season, and you're first in line to get down on Shaka because of that, that's cool for you. I personally don't think that's realistic or fair, but you don't have to give a rat's rump about what I think. 

[Pakuni]

Well, let's say that this particular team would have a better chance of winning more Big East games this season if it played a different offensive system, one that didn't involve early 3s being taken by a team that lacks 3-point shooters. But he truly believes this is the system that, long-term, will suit the Marquette program well. 

Or let's say that he might think that benching the PG who can't shoot and who is starting to throw the ball all over the place might help him win a game, but he doesn't want to destroy the kid's confidence for the future.

Those kinds of things ... but I do agree it's a fine line.

I truly think if Shaka was asked, off the record and just shooting the shyte, he would say, "Hell yes, of course I want to win this year, but it's really about next year and the year after that." But maybe not.

Some questions:
How does does installing a system that doesn't suit his roster this year make things better next year or the year after that? Won't the future players who do fit the system still have to get on to campus and learn it? It's not like they'll absorb it through osmosis once it's been established.

Why would he knowingly recruit players - Justin and Greg are the only two he didn't, really - to play in a system that doesn't fit their skills? If you're building an offense predicated on three-point shooting, for example, why not recruit more three-point shooters? Why not just go get kids that fit the system right away instead of installing a system with a roster that doesn't fit it and then go get players who do fit?

I agree with the idea that Shaka is trying to install a system and a culture. But I very much disagree with the idea that this year is necessarily (and by choice) a sacrificial lamb on the altar to long-term success.

[Goose]

Pakuni

A lot of these guys are not going to be here in 2-3 years and that is life. Winning and playing in March is going to attract system players. Add an excited style of play and system players will be here shortly.

[MU82]

Some questions:
How does does installing a system that doesn't suit his roster this year make things better next year or the year after that? Won't the future players who do fit the system still have to get on to campus and learn it? It's not like they'll absorb it through osmosis once it's been established.

Why would he knowingly recruit players - Justin and Greg are the only two he didn't, really - to play in a system that doesn't fit their skills? If you're building an offense predicated on three-point shooting, for example, why not recruit more three-point shooters? Why not just go get kids that fit the system right away instead of installing a system with a roster that doesn't fit it and then go get players who do fit?

I agree with the idea that Shaka is trying to install a system and a culture. But I very much disagree with the idea that this year is necessarily (and by choice) a sacrificial lamb on the altar to long-term success.

Some of those are good questions. I wish you could ask them to Shaka.

[Goose]

82

First, I do respect much of your opinions and knowledge of the basketball program. Aside from you stirring the pot and playing both sides of the aisle, there is no doubt you can hold your own in any basketball conversation.  So, I hold your basketball views in higher regard than many on here.

As for my keeping my expectations of the program this year and beyond, of course there are circumstances out of Shaka's control and that is a different topic. If they play their ass off and get the most out of the BE schedule and fall short, I would accept that. If they step on their Johnson and meet the expectations (seems like most think 7-9 wins) I would say the winning part of the season was a failure.

I'm not a complete nut and fully understand the limitations of the squad. I also have watched enough basketball to know this team to be competitive with a lot of teams. I said three weeks ago that I was counting on Shaka being responsible for extra wins this season and by my math he needs to get 3-4 more.

[MU82]

82

First, I do respect much of your opinions and knowledge of the basketball program. Aside from you stirring the pot and playing both sides of the aisle, there is no doubt you can hold your own in any basketball conversation.  So, I hold your basketball views in higher regard than many on here.

As for my keeping my expectations of the program this year and beyond, of course there are circumstances out of Shaka's control and that is a different topic. If they play their ass off and get the most out of the BE schedule and fall short, I would accept that. If they step on their Johnson and meet the expectations (seems like most think 7-9 wins) I would say the winning part of the season was a failure.

I'm not a complete nut and fully understand the limitations of the squad. I also have watched enough basketball to know this team to be competitive with a lot of teams. I said three weeks ago that I was counting on Shaka being responsible for extra wins this season and by my math he needs to get 3-4 more.

Fair enough about all that, and thanks for the (mostly) kind words.

As I've said a few times, I hope you're right with your predictions!

[Lennys Tap]

If you're building an offense predicated on three-point shooting, for example, why not recruit more three-point shooters? Why not just go get kids that fit the system right away instead of installing a system with a roster that doesn't fit it and then go get players who do fit?

Seems to me that every offensive "system" I watch is predicated on 3s or dunks/layups - the only exceptions are when a coach finds that very rare player with an efficient enough mid range game that makes taking tough 2 point shots logical. Kolek is good at the drive and kick or dish (fits Shaka's system). Kuath and Oso have pretty decent hands and are OK finishers (fit Shaka's system). Greg and Kam are good catch and shoot guys (fit Shaka's system). Lewis is a throw back player ideally suited for the mid range game - he doesn't fit Shaka's system offensively or defensively - but he's our best player, so...same with Morsell (offensively, anyway), but he had a pedigree defensively and the look of a leader that a young team needed, so...OMP, Stevie, Ellis? TBD

[MU82]

Lots and lots of TBD, Lenny, and that's OK.

I'd have been stunned if there weren't.

Shaka's doing a great job.

[Markusquette]

Seems to me that every offensive "system" I watch is predicated on 3s or dunks/layups - the only exceptions are when a coach finds that very rare player with an efficient enough mid range game that makes taking tough 2 point shots logical. Kolek is good at the drive and kick or dish (fits Shaka's system). Kuath and Oso have pretty decent hands and are OK finishers (fit Shaka's system). Greg and Kam are good catch and shoot guys (fit Shaka's system). Lewis is a throw back player ideally suited for the mid range game - he doesn't fit Shaka's system offensively or defensively - but he's our best player, so...same with Morsell (offensively, anyway), but he had a pedigree defensively and the look of a leader that a young team needed, so...OMP, Stevie, Ellis? TBD

This. What team isn't going to focus on making threes at this point? However I don't think a coach needs to field an entire roster that adheres perfectly to his system. This team is going to go through growing pains. I'm very happy with what I have seen from Shaka in a small sample size and have plenty of hope his identity as a coach will take shape quickly at MU.

[brewcity77]

This. What team isn't going to focus on making threes at this point? However I don't think a coach needs to field an entire roster that adheres perfectly to his system. This team is going to go through growing pains. I'm very happy with what I have seen from Shaka in a small sample size and have plenty of hope his identity as a coach will take shape quickly at MU.

Among teams in the bottom half of percentage of attempts from three...

• Arizona
  
• Syracuse
  
• Iona
  
• Baylor
  
• Minnesota
  
• Gonzaga
  
• Florida State
  
• St. John's
  
• Iowa State
  
• Virginia
  
• Michigan
  
• Duke
  
• Creighton
  
• Kansas
  
• Michigan State
  
• West Virginia
  
• Arkansas
  
• USC
  
• Kentucky

[MU82]

Among teams in the bottom half of percentage of attempts from three...

• Arizona
  
• Syracuse
  
• Iona
  
• Baylor
  
• Minnesota
  
• Gonzaga
  
• Florida State
  
• St. John's
  
• Iowa State
  
• Virginia
  
• Michigan
  
• Duke
  
• Creighton
  
• Kansas
  
• Michigan State
  
• West Virginia
  
• Arkansas
  
• USC
  
• Kentucky

Interesting list, brew. The one that really jumps out at me is Creighton because they always seem like such a 3-happy team.