Sooooo.... Texas?

[Jockey]

Holy moses I didn't know educated people actually bought the voter fraud narrative that has no basis in fact. MU really was a different place in 1969.

I think that is a pretty wild assumption. If we ever needed proof of how batsh!t crazy these people are, we have exhibit #1.

[Galway Eagle]

That is my point. I could neither prove it did happen anymore than you can prove it didn't happen. The perfect system for voter manipulation.

All these emotions at once.

[muwarrior69]

Even your hypothetical is silly. So your granddaughter fills out the ballots and you don't notice that those ballots you were going to complete are no where to be found? And then you go vote in person...and discover you already voted by mail--and the fraud is discovered.

The reason Republicans don't want mail-in voting has nothing to do with fraud.

You misunderstood. We all sign our envelopes.  We explain to our grand daughter that only one bubble for president, senate, congress etc can be filled out in each row. She is very good at coloring bubbles as she does it all the time when taking tests at school. We then take the ballots the she competed and complete the process by placing all items in its proper envelopes and mail it to the county clerk. A fraud was committed because we did not cast those ballots, a second fraud was committed because our grand  daughter is not even eligible to vote. There is no way the county clerk could discover a fraud was committed. We signed the envelope, the ballots were filled out correctly (by someone else) and counted. There is no reason to vote in person. Our ballots were mailed and counted. Absolutely no evidence of fraud. There is no direct link between the voter and the ballot. There is no way to know with absolute certainty that the ballot was actually cast by the person who signed envelope.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You misunderstood. We all sign our envelopes.  We explain to our grand daughter that only one bubble for president, senate, congress etc can be filled out in each row. She is very good at coloring bubbles as she does it all the time when taking tests at school. We then take the ballots the she competed and complete the process by placing all items in its proper envelopes and mail it to the county clerk. A fraud was committed because we did not cast those ballots, a second fraud was committed because our grand  daughter is not even eligible to vote. There is no way the county clerk could discover a fraud was committed. We signed the envelope, the ballots were filled out correctly (by someone else) and counted. There is no reason to vote in person. Our ballots were mailed and counted. Absolutely no evidence of fraud. There is no direct link between the voter and the ballot. There is no way to know with absolute certainty that the ballot was actually cast by the person who signed envelope.

[jficke13]

You misunderstood. We all sign our envelopes.  We explain to our grand daughter that only one bubble for president, senate, congress etc can be filled out in each row. She is very good at coloring bubbles as she does it all the time when taking tests at school. We then take the ballots the she competed and complete the process by placing all items in its proper envelopes and mail it to the county clerk. A fraud was committed because we did not cast those ballots, a second fraud was committed because our grand  daughter is not even eligible to vote. There is no way the county clerk could discover a fraud was committed. We signed the envelope, the ballots were filled out correctly (by someone else) and counted. There is no reason to vote in person. Our ballots were mailed and counted. Absolutely no evidence of fraud. There is no direct link between the voter and the ballot. There is no way to know with absolute certainty that the ballot was actually cast by the person who signed envelope.

What we have here is a person who has entwined their beliefs with their identity.  The beliefs of "us vs them," "democracy is under threat," "people who don't agree with these principals are acting in bad faith therefore we must be vigilant against any and all perceived slights," and "my hypothetical is not merely possible, but certain to have occurred because if there is nothing they will not do, and they can do fraud, therefore they have done fraud." It all weaves together into a situation where any criticism of these beliefs is cannot be based on evidence, logic, statistics, or good faith, those criticism are an attack on the *self.*

That is to say nothing of the fact that the path that people with this worldview has walked has led them to a place where the perceived threat is existential to democracy, the country, and way of life, and if that is true, then there is no action they are unwilling to take to defeat that threat.

There is nothing I or anyone on this board can say that might deradicalize this worldview. The only hope is that there is some breadcrumb that leads to another breadcrumb that leads closer to the disentangling of identity from misinformation.

Pretty cool stuff.

[Galway Eagle]

You misunderstood. We all sign our envelopes.  We explain to our grand daughter that only one bubble for president, senate, congress etc can be filled out in each row. She is very good at coloring bubbles as she does it all the time when taking tests at school. We then take the ballots the she competed and complete the process by placing all items in its proper envelopes and mail it to the county clerk. A fraud was committed because we did not cast those ballots, a second fraud was committed because our grand  daughter is not even eligible to vote. There is no way the county clerk could discover a fraud was committed. We signed the envelope, the ballots were filled out correctly (by someone else) and counted. There is no reason to vote in person. Our ballots were mailed and counted. Absolutely no evidence of fraud. There is no direct link between the voter and the ballot. There is no way to know with absolute certainty that the ballot was actually cast by the person who signed envelope.

Getting back to California where you started this. Are you arguing that enough people live in California, with their granddaughter, then explain how to vote to their granddaughter, then don't examine the ballot before signing and sealing it, that turn those ballots in. And this is the only reason that the Republic recall failed? (Or for that matter Trump got voted out?)

[Pakuni]

Getting back to California were you started this. Are you arguing that enough people live in California, with their granddaughter, then explain how to vote to their granddaughter, then don't examine the ballot before signing and sealing it, that turn those ballots in. And this is the only reason that the Republic recall failed? (Or for that matter Trump got voted out?)

There's an epidemic of grandchildren voting in California.
And for some weird reason, they all vote Democrat.

[MU82]

That is my point. There is no evidence of fraud even though a fraud was committed.

The best take anybody will have on Scoop this month. Thanks for making my day!

Don't listen to all the haters, bud. And don't worry about the fact that the only proven election fraud in the U.S. happened in 2018 right in my district in NC, when a GOP operative tried to steal the election for his candidate but was caught, forcing a new vote.

Stick to your guns (and maybe buy a few more guns) because know there was fraud, even though nobody has come close to proving it! Your lord and master says so, as do Tucker and Hannity and MyPillow, so it must be true!

[The Sultan]

You misunderstood. We all sign our envelopes.  We explain to our grand daughter that only one bubble for president, senate, congress etc can be filled out in each row. She is very good at coloring bubbles as she does it all the time when taking tests at school. We then take the ballots the she competed and complete the process by placing all items in its proper envelopes and mail it to the county clerk. A fraud was committed because we did not cast those ballots, a second fraud was committed because our grand  daughter is not even eligible to vote. There is no way the county clerk could discover a fraud was committed. We signed the envelope, the ballots were filled out correctly (by someone else) and counted. There is no reason to vote in person. Our ballots were mailed and counted. Absolutely no evidence of fraud. There is no direct link between the voter and the ballot. There is no way to know with absolute certainty that the ballot was actually cast by the person who signed envelope.

Exactly.  Just like I could steal your diver's license, have plastic surgery to look like you, and then go vote in your place.  Bingo...voter fraud.

This happens all the time.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is 69's example even voter fraud? I feel like there needs to be some level of intent and harm for it to be considered fraud. In his example, he is deciding to let his grandchild make his voting decisions for him and signing off that these are his votes. He is not casting an extra vote, it's not being done without his knowledge, he just decided to base his vote on what his grandchild chose. It's a dumb way to vote, but people vote for dumb reasons all the time. I guess if he wasn't going to vote and the grandchild requested a ballot in his name and forged his signature, I could see it. But I'm not certain his example, as presented, would be prosecuted.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

We signed the envelope

So, not fraud.

Assuming Jersey's like most states, your signature is an acknowledgment that the ballot was filled out in a manner consistent with the will of you, the registered voter.  The mail-in voter affidavit, while making requirements of your citizenship and residency, deliberately leaves out a requirement that you fill out your own ballot, so those who need assistance can get it without additional legal hurdles.

If your granddaughter registers while underage and gets her own ballot, that's fraud.

If your granddaughter fills out your ballot without your consent and forges your signature, that's fraud.

Voter/election fraud is about an outcome that doesn't align with the will of the voter.  If your granddaughter is filling out your ballot under your supervision and you provide your election board with your genuine signature, what is the crime?

[muwarrior69]

So, not fraud.

Assuming Jersey's like most states, your signature is an acknowledgment that the ballot was filled out in a manner consistent with the will of you, the registered voter.  The mail-in voter affidavit, while making requirements of your citizenship and residency, deliberately leaves out a requirement that you fill out your own ballot, so those who need assistance can get it without additional legal hurdles.

If your granddaughter registers while underage and gets her own ballot, that's fraud.

If your granddaughter fills out your ballot without your consent and forges your signature, that's fraud.

Voter/election fraud is about an outcome that doesn't align with the will of the voter.  If your granddaughter is filling out your ballot under your supervision and you provide your election board with your genuine signature, what is the crime?

I stand corrected, the state assumes that the signed envelope expresses the will of the voter, but does not know for certain.

[naginiF]

I stand corrected, the state assumes that the signed envelope expresses the will of the voter, but does not know for certain.

The state also assumes that a ballot cast in person expresses the will of the voter, but does not know for certain.

[The Sultan]

When I paid my property taxes last December, the city assumed that since I signed my check that I authorized that payment...but do they really know for certain?  I'm calling the city clerk tomorrow.

[mikekinsellaMVP]

I stand corrected, the state assumes that the signed envelope expresses the will of the voter, but does not know for certain.

I mean, I think there's a fair debate to be had about whether or not signature verification is acceptable as a sole means of voter identification.  But as naginiF and Fluffy are suggesting, your level of skepticism underpins just about every transaction in modern society.  (Is that my signature on the check?  Did I really give that website my credit card number?  How long until Scoop finds out I'm the world's most dexterous Doberman?)

[dgies9156]

Ok gang, full disclosure -- I'm a moderately conservative person, so keep that in mind as I say what I am about to say.

1) Was there voter fraud? Of course there was. Voter fraud is as old as elections themselves. There's always someone who is looking for an edge and will cheat. Case in point, every Cook County, IL election since the 1840s.

2) Was there enough fraud to affect the outcome of the 2020 Presidential Election? Hell no!

3) Why do I believe that? Because for such a fraud to occur, there would have to be an organized conspiracy in five different states. Democrats have never been organized, much less organized enough to know in which states to commit fraud and to conspire on a grand enough scale to throw a Presidential election. The closest they came was in 1960 and that still would have involved two states -- Illinois and Texas.

4) If I'm wrong, God help our republic. If the Trumpers are right and can prove it, the results will bring down the country.

[MU82]

If the Trumpers are right and can prove it, the results will bring down the country.

They're not right. They can't prove it. And yet the Trumpers are still trying to bring down our country.

[Jockey]

They're not right. They can't prove it. And yet the Trumpers are still trying to bring down our country.

Well said, 82.

[Galway Eagle]

Texas? Check.

Shouldn't have had a gun but b/c Texas had one? Check.

Abortion leading this guy to believe murder was right? Check.

https://www.insider.com/texas-man-murdered-woman-because-she-supported-joe-biden-police-2021-9


But at least with hindsight being 20/20 people can always say "well that guy shouldn't have had a gun"

[MU82]

Women in Texas will not stop getting abortions. They will just do what's necessary to circumvent the law -- just as politicians, lobbyist, CEOs, coaches, athletes, etc, do what they feel is necessary to circumvent laws or rules they don't like.

In the case of women seeking abortion, a process that has been legal in the U.S. for a half-century, many will turn to abortion pills -- some pills that are already recognized and are easily available by mail from India, Mexico or elsewhere; and others that will be less safe and perhaps will put the women's lives in danger.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/14/abortion-pills-texas/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F34aba5e%2F6140d00d9d2fdaecb9d7cda4%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F22%2F74%2F6140d00d9d2fdaecb9d7cda4

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Ok gang, full disclosure -- I'm a moderately conservative person, so keep that in mind as I say what I am about to say.

1) Was there voter fraud? Of course there was. Voter fraud is as old as elections themselves. There's always someone who is looking for an edge and will cheat. Case in point, every Cook County, IL election since the 1840s.

2) Was there enough fraud to affect the outcome of the 2020 Presidential Election? Hell no!

3) Why do I believe that? Because for such a fraud to occur, there would have to be an organized conspiracy in five different states. Democrats have never been organized, much less organized enough to know in which states to commit fraud and to conspire on a grand enough scale to throw a Presidential election. The closest they came was in 1960 and that still would have involved two states -- Illinois and Texas.

4) If I'm wrong, God help our republic. If the Trumpers are right and can prove it, the results will bring down the country.

I've worked a lot of elections in various parts of Cook County (and out of state also). I have yet to see evidence of this fraud you claim exists, at least at the polling place level. I do see underpaid election judges diligently doing their job to ensure a fair election. Every time. Every location. Even out of state. Your broad brush assertion is somewhat insulting to all these good people. I always think of how they have been vilified by Trump's false assertions which are not going to make their job any easier going forward. Wouldn't surprise me to see a shortage in coming elections.

I'll concede that there are people who commit election fraud every election but I do not believe it is to the extent your post implies.

[MU82]

Let's not kid ourselves: There definitely was very real and significant fraud involving the 2020 election ... and it's still going on, with fraudulent "audits" being conducted by ardent supporters of the allegedly aggrieved parties.

Before that, there were fraudulent claims by the likes of Giuliani (who was disbarred because of his attempts at fraud) and Sidney Powell (who is getting sued for $1B+ for her fraudulent actions).

[Pakuni]

I've worked a lot of elections in various parts of Cook County (and out of state also). I have yet to see evidence of this fraud you claim exists, at least at the polling place level. I do see underpaid election judges diligently doing their job to ensure a fair election. Every time. Every location. Even out of state. Your broad brush assertion is somewhat insulting to all these good people. I always think of how they have been vilified by Trump's false assertions which are not going to make their job any easier going forward. Wouldn't surprise me to see a shortage in coming elections.

I'll concede that there are people who commit election fraud every election but I do not believe it is to the extent your post implies.

As far as I'm aware, there's been only one federal election in n recent memory (if ever) overturned because of fraud. It didn't happen in Illinois and the Democrats weren't the ones behind the fraudulence.

[Warriors4ever]

Having also worked elections in Illinois, I also have seen only hard-working people. I did observe on a couple occasions some attempts to intimidate voters or make them believe they couldn't vote.  I helped man a voter protection hotline last fall both pre-and post-election day, and on the day itself, and most of the calls I dealt with had to do with people trying to figure out where, whether and how they could vote. Sometimes we couldn't help them, sometimes we could.

[Galway Eagle]

Ok gang, full disclosure -- I'm a moderately conservative person, so keep that in mind as I say what I am about to say.

1) Was there voter fraud? Of course there was. Voter fraud is as old as elections themselves. There's always someone who is looking for an edge and will cheat. Case in point, every Cook County, IL election since the 1840s.

2) Was there enough fraud to affect the outcome of the 2020 Presidential Election? Hell no!

3) Why do I believe that? Because for such a fraud to occur, there would have to be an organized conspiracy in five different states. Democrats have never been organized, much less organized enough to know in which states to commit fraud and to conspire on a grand enough scale to throw a Presidential election. The closest they came was in 1960 and that still would have involved two states -- Illinois and Texas.

4) If I'm wrong, God help our republic. If the Trumpers are right and can prove it, the results will bring down the country.

1.1) Yeah probably, I highly doubt there's ever been enough to sway an election outside of maybe 2000 which if you'd like to argue swayed an election by all means please do.

1.2) hahaha still stuck on one conspiracy theory from the 60s meaning it's been happening in every election. This example screams of guy from Red suburb angry at his (admittedly corrupt) metropolitan area for following the trends of every metropolitan area.

2) we can agree. You earned rational points back.

3) why is it that you guys only ever see fraud on the left? Has it ever dawned on you that if your argument is that we aren't organized to do it, but you guys are that that actually incriminates you guys more? And to quote your fellow believer 69, because you can't prove that it happened or that it didn't happen is exactly why it did.

4) Agreed.