collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 Coaching Carousel by rocket surgeon
[Today at 05:40:06 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Scoop Snoop
[Today at 05:36:13 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Frenns Liquor Depot
[Today at 04:57:21 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by MuMark
[Today at 04:40:13 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by BrewCity83
[Today at 04:40:04 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 04:38:52 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: New Frosh Class at MU  (Read 37096 times)

Newsdreams

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9564
  • Goal - Win BE
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2021, 06:51:39 AM »
Geez, DG, you sound like a rather reasonable, fair minded, well thought out individual. 

Just a week ago, the enlightened folks on this board had deemed you to be a racist and utterly vile to the core. 

How dare you have the audacity to actually live your life in a virtuous manner, being a wonderful parent, husband, and an all around decent human being (your baseball fandom has me rethinking this, though).

All this goodie-goodie stuff you claim does not fit The Narrative about you last week.








Popcorn time.
No! He thinks Yadier is the best PR baseball player ever. DG is just a dirty bird fan, makes him a dirty old man.
Goal is National Championship

Newsdreams

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9564
  • Goal - Win BE
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2021, 06:54:45 AM »

Standardized tests are basically IQ tests, aina?
Still using anesthetics on yourself, bad for you doc.
Goal is National Championship

jsglow

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7378
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2021, 07:53:16 AM »
Geez, DG, you sound like a rather reasonable, fair minded, well thought out individual. 

Just a week ago, the enlightened folks on this board had deemed you to be a racist and utterly vile to the core. 

How dare you have the audacity to actually live your life in a virtuous manner, being a wonderful parent, husband, and an all around decent human being (your baseball fandom has me rethinking this, though).

All this goodie-goodie stuff you claim does not fit The Narrative about you last week.








Popcorn time.

INCOMING!

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2021, 08:55:47 AM »

Standardized tests are basically IQ tests, aina?

They measure both achievement and IQ, two things currently out of favor.

The brightest will always score the highest, but everyone can improve on the margins if they are taught basic math, reading and grammar skills. I gather from Pakuni’s post that these are also out of favor. We’re producing kids that are way behind in reading, math and science but keen on at least one version of social justice. How this is considered “progress” escapes me.

The Equalizer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2021, 09:01:15 AM »
Because teaching to the test only teaches a student how to regurgitate the narrow range of material - usually in multiple choice format - that some state bureaucrat has decided is necessary for a given grade level.

How does one teach a student to regurgitate the answer to something like "2x + 9 = 21.  Solve for x"   

Or: "You need to by a pair of shoes and some socks.  A pair of shoes costs $9.  Socks cost $2 each pair.  How many pair of socks can you buy if you have $21."

If you teach the concept, the test will be easy.  So don't teach to the test.  Teach the concept.  The test is a measure as to whether you've done that.


And most of all, because teaching to the test disincetivizes classroom activities that encourage students to figure sh*t out on their own, develop critical thinking skills, foster creativity, and learn how to learn. [/b]
It's the kids who can do those things are going to grow up to be the most successful, not the automaton who can best fill out ovals with a No. 2 pencil.

If you have successfully taught via activities that encourage students to figures sh*t out on their own, develop critical thinking skills, foster creativity, and learn how to learn, THEN a student should be able to apply what they figured out, their critical thinking skills, and their creativity to answer a damn question on a test.



The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11519
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2021, 09:35:35 AM »
How does one teach a student to regurgitate the answer to something like "2x + 9 = 21.  Solve for x"   

Or: "You need to by a pair of shoes and some socks.  A pair of shoes costs $9.  Socks cost $2 each pair.  How many pair of socks can you buy if you have $21."

If you teach the concept, the test will be easy.  So don't teach to the test.  Teach the concept.  The test is a measure as to whether you've done that.


That's cool for math.  Now do that for reading comprehension, history, social sciences, etc.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2021, 09:44:10 AM »
We’re producing kids that are way behind in reading, math and science but keen on at least one version of social justice. How this is considered “progress” escapes me.

Other than the glib about social justice, I agree. Which is why some are questioning if the status quo (excessive standardized testing) is the correct path. This is certainly a multi-faceted problem with no easy one size fits all solution.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2021, 09:46:41 AM »

That's cool for math.  Now do that for reading comprehension, history, social sciences, etc.

Hard to get good at reading comprehension (or any subject that requires it) without first learning how to read.

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11519
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2021, 09:49:53 AM »
Hard to get good at reading comprehension (or any subject that requires it) without first learning how to read.


No kidding.  Tell me how you can evaluate that on a standardized test?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

ZiggysFryBoy

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5115
  • MEDITERRANEAN TACOS!
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #84 on: August 27, 2021, 10:04:12 AM »

No kidding.  Tell me how you can evaluate that on a standardized test?

If you can't read, you'll perform poorly on a standardized tests.  Then the child will get assistance.

If our little Catholic school could figure that out, why can public schools with more aides, social workers, specialists, etc than actual classroom teachers figure that out?

Oh yeah, we don't want to make a kid feel bad by not simply advancing them through the grade levels  instead of asking sure that kids are ready to do the work in the next grade. 

Then, when illiterate and otherwise not prepared kids "graduate" they are condemned to low wage, low skill jobs, because that's all they can do.  You need to be able to read and do math for the trades, manufacturing, and most other blue collar jobs, short of day laborer and fast food.

Then poverty, crime, prison, and repeat.

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 10461
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2021, 10:14:57 AM »
If you can't read, you'll perform poorly on a standardized tests.  Then the child will get assistance.

If our little Catholic school could figure that out, why can public schools with more aides, social workers, specialists, etc than actual classroom teachers figure that out?

Oh yeah, we don't want to make a kid feel bad by not simply advancing them through the grade levels  instead of asking sure that kids are ready to do the work in the next grade. 

Then, when illiterate and otherwise not prepared kids "graduate" they are condemned to low wage, low skill jobs, because that's all they can do.  You need to be able to read and do math for the trades, manufacturing, and most other blue collar jobs, short of day laborer and fast food.

Then poverty, crime, prison, and repeat.

While you're right this sort of ignores the fact that ESL kids are left out to dry there. Can we at least agree that they should probably offer the exams in various languages?
Maigh Eo for Sam

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2021, 10:19:42 AM »
So don't teach to the test.  Teach the concept.  The test is a measure as to whether you've done that.

We agree, then. Don't teach to the test.
Though you and I (and educators) may not share the same understanding of what "teach to the test" means. It doesn't mean "don't teach the material that will appear on the test." It means don't limit the curriculum, lesson plans and classroom instruction to the test. Don't reduce time spent on material that isn't on the test, i.e. music, art, foreign language, PE, and, depending on the grade level and test, even science and social studies.  Don't waste time on test preparation (which can do more for test scores than actual subject knowledge ... there's a reason test prep is a $10 billion industry in this country).

And, give space for kids to learn in different ways. To explore. To fail and learn from it. That's not an option when the entire curriculum and school year is built rigidly around one or two days of testing.

Quote
If you have successfully taught via activities that encourage students to figures sh*t out on their own, develop critical thinking skills, foster creativity, and learn how to learn, THEN a student should be able to apply what they figured out, their critical thinking skills, and their creativity to answer a damn question on a test.

How do you do this when lessons are focused on the limited material on a standardized test and preparing for said test?

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11519
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2021, 10:25:20 AM »
If you can't read, you'll perform poorly on a standardized tests.  Then the child will get assistance.

If our little Catholic school could figure that out, why can public schools with more aides, social workers, specialists, etc than actual classroom teachers figure that out?

Oh yeah, we don't want to make a kid feel bad by not simply advancing them through the grade levels  instead of asking sure that kids are ready to do the work in the next grade. 

Then, when illiterate and otherwise not prepared kids "graduate" they are condemned to low wage, low skill jobs, because that's all they can do.  You need to be able to read and do math for the trades, manufacturing, and most other blue collar jobs, short of day laborer and fast food.

Then poverty, crime, prison, and repeat.


Again, you aren't addressing the question.  How do you measure proficiency in reading, social sciences, etc. using standardized tests?

And again, I will point out, that proficiency in those topics have gotten WORSE since No Child Left Behind. 
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

21Jumpstreet

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2021, 10:33:36 AM »
Replace teacher focused/led, listen and regurgitate for standardized tests with child focused/led, project and presentation based learning. Of course some colleges, trade schools, jobs will require proficiency in certain areas, and this switch in learning might lead to young people curious to learn those skills in order to progress in any direction they see fit and in a way they deem successful for them in life.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2021, 10:33:59 AM »
They measure both achievement and IQ, two things currently out of favor.

The brightest will always score the highest, but everyone can improve on the margins if they are taught basic math, reading and grammar skills. I gather from Pakuni’s post that these are also out of favor. We’re producing kids that are way behind in reading, math and science but keen on at least one version of social justice. How this is considered “progress” escapes me.

We actually do OK in reading, but are indeed lagging in math. This has remained true despite an intense focus over the past two decades on standardized testing as a cure to all that ails our educational system.
And here's why ... American schools' math curricula sucks. It focuses on memorizing formulas and procedures - the kind of things you need to know for a standardized test - rather than how other countries do it, by teaching creativity, problem solving and critical thinking.
Here's a good read and a good podcast examining why American students are behind in math. You'll be shocked to learn it has nothing to do with your latest right-wing boogeyman.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/02/28/math-scores-high-school-lessons-freakonomics-pisa-algebra-geometry/4835742002/

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/math-curriculum/

« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 10:35:34 AM by Pakuni »

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23349
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2021, 11:03:56 AM »
I think there are a lot of people here who should give up their current careers and get into the classrooms.    There is a shortage right now.   Opportunity to make a difference.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2021, 11:04:33 AM »
No! He thinks Yadier is the best PR baseball player ever. DG is just a dirty bird fan, makes him a dirty old man.

Great Puerto Rican Baseball Players:

1) Roberto Clemente
2) Nobody -- compared to the person Clemente was and the ballplayer he was, nobody measures up.
3) Yadi Molina
4) Orlando Cepeda
5) Jose Oquendo
6) Everyone else

OK, I'm thoroughly off topic but I had to address this. My Cardinal credentials are at stake!


Billy Hoyle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Retire #34
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2021, 11:28:22 AM »
They measure both achievement and IQ, two things currently out of favor.

The brightest will always score the highest, but everyone can improve on the margins if they are taught basic math, reading and grammar skills. I gather from Pakuni’s post that these are also out of favor. We’re producing kids that are way behind in reading, math and science but keen on at least one version of social justice. How this is considered “progress” escapes me.

Just as honors programs are falling out of favor because too many Asian kids are testing into them. And don't forget about the new math where 2+2 can equal 5 if the kid says so. Yeah, that's who I want working on our roads and bridges.

Sure, there are kids who are going to naturally test better, but I see these tests as a great equalizer. Basing college admissions on GPAs only is not an adequate barometer of preparation of future success. Those can be manipulated though grade inflation and weaker scheduling. I think of my school's co-valedictorians; one took AP classes and now works at Apple after doing grad school at Stanford. The other took no AP classes, Yearbook, and classes like that, and flamed out at Michigan Tech. Standardized tests are great equalizers. Of course, plenty of studies that Pakuni posts say otherwise, but it's easy to manipulate those when you go in with the conclusion already decided.

If we get rid of the ACT and SAT shouldn't we also get rid of the GMAT, MCAT, and LSAT? How about the TOEFL too? We wouldn't want kids left out of med school and feeling bad about themselves because they didn't do well enough on the MCAT.
“You either smoke or you get smoked. And you got smoked.”

ZiggysFryBoy

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5115
  • MEDITERRANEAN TACOS!
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2021, 11:39:25 AM »
While you're right this sort of ignores the fact that ESL kids are left out to dry there. Can we at least agree that they should probably offer the exams in various languages?

I'm guessing there is now, but if not it should be that way.

21Jumpstreet

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1328
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2021, 11:44:04 AM »

If we get rid of the ACT and SAT shouldn't we also get rid of the GMAT, MCAT, and LSAT? How about the TOEFL too? We wouldn't want kids left out of med school and feeling bad about themselves because they didn't do well enough on the MCAT.

Perhaps. Do those tests equate to the best doctors and lawyers? Malcolm Gladwell does a podcast on a Supreme Court law clerk that went to Ohio State and also addresses standardized testing.

Hards Alumni

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6583
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2021, 12:05:25 PM »
They measure both achievement and IQ, two things currently out of favor.

The brightest will always score the highest, but everyone can improve on the margins if they are taught basic math, reading and grammar skills. I gather from Pakuni’s post that these are also out of favor. We’re producing kids that are way behind in reading, math and science but keen on at least one version of social justice. How this is considered “progress” escapes me.

I mean, at your age, I'm sure a lot escapes you.

But in all seriousness, we are "way behind" because your generation dropped the ball.  Its shocking to me that the people who have been in control for the last 30-40 years can't believe how far behind our children are.  But that's just par for the course with you old folk.  Absolute abdication of responsibility is your generations greatest gift to the world!

You're the same numbskulls that berated millennials about getting "participation trophies".  Did you guys think we went to the trophy store and had those made for ourselves? 

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23349
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2021, 12:18:21 PM »
The 'OK, boomer' response.   Well played.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11519
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2021, 12:39:10 PM »
I mean, at your age, I'm sure a lot escapes you.

But in all seriousness, we are "way behind" because your generation dropped the ball.  Its shocking to me that the people who have been in control for the last 30-40 years can't believe how far behind our children are.  But that's just par for the course with you old folk.  Absolute abdication of responsibility is your generations greatest gift to the world!

You're the same numbskulls that berated millennials about getting "participation trophies".  Did you guys think we went to the trophy store and had those made for ourselves? 


Right. I mean, for a long part of our country's history, our public schools were the envy of the world.  We funded them well, we prepared our teachers fantastically, people were given access where they weren't getting access in other countries.  And the results showed!  All the progress that was made in the sciences in the 19th and 20th centuries for instance, was largely lead by Americans who were educated in public K-12 school systems.

But then the generation that reaped from that system, decided that teachers were overpaid, that schools had enough resources, and declared fat was there to be trimmed.  And when proficiency suffered, you blamed the teachers and the schools more, increased testing and tied it to funding (with predictable results).  And now that's not working either.  So you are blaming teachers and "educrats" some more.  Oh and "critical race theory" and such dog-whistling nonsense.

But some people don't understand history so...here we are.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Dr. Blackheart

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13006
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2021, 12:50:09 PM »
I mean, at your age, I'm sure a lot escapes you.

But in all seriousness, we are "way behind" because your generation dropped the ball.  Its shocking to me that the people who have been in control for the last 30-40 years can't believe how far behind our children are.  But that's just par for the course with you old folk.  Absolute abdication of responsibility is your generations greatest gift to the world!

You're the same numbskulls that berated millennials about getting "participation trophies".  Did you guys think we went to the trophy store and had those made for ourselves?

Yet, the Millennials are the most educated and according to this, the wealthiest generation. Something must have gone right.

While there are downfalls in standardized testing, something must have improved versus the 3Rs the Boomers grew up in. You do realize we inherited dirt scrabble schools in the South and Appalachia, no Early Start programs, day care didn't exist. No equal opportunity laws or quotas. Segregation was the norm. There was a lot to fix.

China's education philosophy teaches student book smarts but they lag so much on conceptual thinking as it's all about The State.

The switch in US schools to teach math conceptually (the University of Chicago school), transformed how Millennials were taught, for example. Put it this way: The Chinese (using US technology) could give the world the Covid genetic map, the US had the mRNA technology to advance it into a vaccine.

I think we left things behind too like the seven liberal arts philosophy were students were exposed to and taught new challenge viewpoints. This was replaced with specialization and digital Johnson measuring. Lost was academic curiosity.

I am a believer that educational concepts are short lived (10 years) and serve their purpose. Philosophies should constantly change at the inflection points. We are in the middle of one for Millennial kids with the COVID kids. Let's see how things evolve, Big Boy, now that you are in the captain's chair.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-06-23/millennials-the-wealthiest-generation-believe-it

ZiggysFryBoy

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5115
  • MEDITERRANEAN TACOS!
Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2021, 01:02:14 PM »
I mean, at your age, I'm sure a lot escapes you.

But in all seriousness, we are "way behind" because your generation dropped the ball.  Its shocking to me that the people who have been in control for the last 30-40 years can't believe how far behind our children are.  But that's just par for the course with you old folk.  Absolute abdication of responsibility is your generations greatest gift to the world!

You're the same numbskulls that berated millennials about getting "participation trophies".  Did you guys think we went to the trophy store and had those made for ourselves?

Says the guy that will inherit his boomer parents' business.  Or will you walk away out of principle? 

 

feedback