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Author Topic: New Frosh Class at MU  (Read 37075 times)

NCMUFan

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2021, 04:18:19 PM »
I am a graduate of St. Joseph HS in Kenosha back in 1976.
I have not lived in Wisconsin since 1987.
Do the high schools in the old Metro Conference still exist?
Pius
Dominican
Waukesha Memorial
Racine St. Cats
Thomas More
Marquette HS.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2021, 04:21:07 PM »
I am a graduate of St. Joseph HS in Kenosha back in 1976.
I have not lived in Wisconsin since 1987.
Do the high schools in the old Metro Conference still exist?
Pius
Dominican
Waukesha Memorial
Racine St. Cats
Thomas More
Marquette HS.



They all exist.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

The Lens

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2021, 04:22:32 PM »
I am a graduate of St. Joseph HS in Kenosha back in 1976.
I have not lived in Wisconsin since 1987.
Do the high schools in the old Metro Conference still exist?
Pius
Dominican
Waukesha Memorial
Racine St. Cats
Thomas More
Marquette

The all exist but sadly not all play in the same conference.  MUHS has been off loaded to the big near western suburbs schools (Tosa, Brookfield, Falls).   Dominican is in with St. Cats & Joe's (size thing).  Memorial I believe plays in the Classic 8 with Arrowhead and Waukesha schools.  Not sure where Pius, TM & Milw Lutheran landed.  It's devastating, IMO.
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History is so valuable if you have the humility to learn from it.    ---- Shaka Smart

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2021, 04:22:49 PM »
Galway, I can't (and won't - I assume everything you report is accurate) speak to the particulars of Cristo Rey Milwaukee, but I can speak to Christ the King Jesuit College Prep in Chicago (Austin), one of the three Cristo Rey schools in the Chicago area.  It is tough on the rules (and do not look for reasons to bounce kids), and there is a fair amount of attrition (more due to grades), but the school does everything to encourage success. The kids who attend are not the "cream" of the west side, as those students can attend the best public schools (WY, Payton, Northside -you know these schools) or get scholarships to Ignatius, Fenwick etc.  CtK students mostly are B/C students who typically are driven by the opportunity for a college prep education and the internship model (CtK is not year round school, BTW), as well as a safe environment.  CtK does get 100% of grads into colleges, but that includes City colleges, other two year programs and the state directional schools, while also getting a few into each of Marquette, Loyola and Illinois. It is a wonderful program as is the Cristo Rey Network as a whole.

I differ to your experience and trust those. As I've stated I can only speak to why my fiancé turned them down to take a job at Morton when she moved here from Milwaukee.
Maigh Eo for Sam

GOO

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2021, 04:44:53 PM »
What's lost in all this is that the freshman class is only 1,650 students. That's the same size as last year's COVID freshman class, which was the smallest since 1997. A "normal" freshman class is around 2,000 or slightly above. This trend is not good for the university's finances.
I suspect and hope that this is intentional. 

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2021, 05:16:09 PM »
The all exist but sadly not all play in the same conference.  MUHS has been off loaded to the big near western suburbs schools (Tosa, Brookfield, Falls).   Dominican is in with St. Cats & Joe's (size thing).  Memorial I believe plays in the Classic 8 with Arrowhead and Waukesha schools.  Not sure where Pius, TM & Milw Lutheran landed.  It's devastating, IMO.

Inevitable with the WIAA merger.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

avid1010

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2021, 05:43:11 PM »
Galway, I can't (and won't - I assume everything you report is accurate) speak to the particulars of Cristo Rey Milwaukee, but I can speak to Christ the King Jesuit College Prep in Chicago (Austin), one of the three Cristo Rey schools in the Chicago area.  It is tough on the rules (and do not look for reasons to bounce kids), and there is a fair amount of attrition (more due to grades), but the school does everything to encourage success. The kids who attend are not the "cream" of the west side, as those students can attend the best public schools (WY, Payton, Northside -you know these schools) or get scholarships to Ignatius, Fenwick etc.  CtK students mostly are B/C students who typically are driven by the opportunity for a college prep education and the internship model (CtK is not year round school, BTW), as well as a safe environment.  CtK does get 100% of grads into colleges, but that includes City colleges, other two year programs and the state directional schools, while also getting a few into each of Marquette, Loyola and Illinois. It is a wonderful program as is the Cristo Rey Network as a whole.
Look at their KG, 6, and 9th grade classes and see who remains/graduates after grade 5, 8 and/or 12.

There are no schools that have accepted every student (or run a truly open lottery), abided by the laws that would govern public schools, and eliminated achievement gaps.  Societal issues are too difficult to overcome.

I'm not saying I wouldn't send my kid to their schools, but I also won't pretend that they could replicate x1000 like someone suggested.  If they tried to do that...they would likely end up worse than MPS is now.  Just ask New Orleans how that went. 
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 05:44:48 PM by avid1010 »

Hards Alumni

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2021, 06:18:09 AM »
I graduated from MUHS in 1971. There were a few students students from my freshmen class who were told not to return for their sophomore year either due to poor grades or the trouble they made as freshmen. I think that was a big advantage for serious students. I do not understand why our education system dummies itself down to cater to kids that do not care and tend to disrupt education for other students. Lack of accountability is why our education system lags behind other countries.

Bolded:  We have to educate everyone.  We don't just throw problem kids to curb like private schools can.

Italicized: Nope, try again.

dgies9156

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2021, 09:07:32 AM »
I do not understand why our education system dummies itself down to cater to kids that do not care and tend to disrupt education for other students. Lack of accountability is why our education system lags behind other countries.

Brother Bilsu:

I understand part of what you say. One can only look at the Chicago Public Schools to see what happened when you warehouse and ship out students who have no discernable skills.

But as the father of two children who had learning disabilities, I find the absolutism is your statement disturbing. First of all, schools don't want to educate special needs children, whatever their needs. It makes teachers work for a living and it can be frustrating. Crappie teachers who don't care or don't know how to reach children with special needs lead to students who do not care.

In our case, both my wife and I are MU grads. Her grade point put her near the top of her class and I have a master's degree. Both of us are accomplished professionals. We adopted two wonderful children from orphanages in Eastern Europe. The IEP meetings we had at our supposedly very good public elementary school district became combative when I called out their BS and told them to stop reading off a script and set meaningful, attainable goals for our children. The teachers, in turn, accused us of expecting too much from our children. I can't tell you how many times I've heard teachers complain because they're "stuck" with children who have learning disabilities. One of the LD teachers in our grade school district up north said she wanted the class "because it has fewer children..." Wow!

The bloodiest public argument I ever had with anyone was when an LD teacher told my daughter, my wife and I that my daughter should lower her expectations and we should expect less from her. Really, it happened! I was nose to nose with the woman who spoke as my wife and daughter slipped under the table. On the way out, my daughter looked at me and all she said was, "Thank you Dad!"

The result is my wife (and there is a special place in heaven waiting for her someday) re-taught our children their lessons every day. It was grueling but she did it because that's what good parents do. We made sure our children had everything they needed. In doing this, we often wondered what other parents did, especially those were not able or not capable of standing up to the lazy and incompetent educrats

Our learning disabled children both have college degrees from an accredited, respected university in Illinois. Both are at the front end of their careers and are competing straight up against colleagues and competitors who do not have learning disabilities.

I'll leave you with two thoughts. First, one of the most compelling ever pieces of education legislation was No Child left Behind, signed into law by President George W. Bush. Teachers and School Districts hated it to no end because it held them accountable in areas many just swept under the rug. They claimed the federal government didn't send money the same way George Wallace claimed the federal government didn't send money when he was told to protect the Selma to Montgomery marchers.

Second, if we don't do all we can to educate everyone, we'll end up paying more to deal with the after-effects of our educational incompetence. Where do you think gangbangers come from? Or, the chronically unemployed? Letting these kids slide through school leads to far greater incarceration, substance abuse, social service cost and other societal problems. Educate them and we give them a fighting chance to compete.

Remember: Love thy neighbor as thyself.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 09:13:10 AM by dgies9156 »

Warrior of Law

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2021, 09:19:35 AM »
Based on their admissions, and allocated financial aid resources, that the intent is for MU to look (demographically) like the City of Milwaukee.  For example, they tout a 33% students of color percentage.  In Wisconsin, the percentage of AAs is 6.7%, Hispanic 7.1%, & Asian 3%, collectively 16%.

I personally don't really care how MU spends their resources as it relates to the composition of the student body, but it is clear that they are making a significant conscious effort to be less white (e.g., MUHS, Brookfield, Arrowhead, Stevensons, etc).  At least they won't have to photoshop someone on a brochure. :)
"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."  Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2021, 09:26:08 AM »
Brother Bilsu:

I understand part of what you say. One can only look at the Chicago Public Schools to see what happened when you warehouse and ship out students who have no discernable skills.

But as the father of two children who had learning disabilities, I find the absolutism is your statement disturbing. First of all, schools don't want to educate special needs children, whatever their needs. It makes teachers work for a living and it can be frustrating. Crappie teachers who don't care or don't know how to reach children with special needs lead to students who do not care.

In our case, both my wife and I are MU grads. Her grade point put her near the top of her class and I have a master's degree. Both of us are accomplished professionals. We adopted two wonderful children from orphanages in Eastern Europe. The IEP meetings we had at our supposedly very good public elementary school district became combative when I called out their BS and told them to stop reading off a script and set meaningful, attainable goals for our children. The teachers, in turn, accused us of expecting too much from our children. I can't tell you how many times I've heard teachers complain because they're "stuck" with children who have learning disabilities. One of the LD teachers in our grade school district up north said she wanted the class "because it has fewer children..." Wow!

The bloodiest public argument I ever had with anyone was when an LD teacher told my daughter, my wife and I that my daughter should lower her expectations and we should expect less from her. Really, it happened! I was nose to nose with the woman who spoke as my wife and daughter slipped under the table. On the way out, my daughter looked at me and all she said was, "Thank you Dad!"

The result is my wife (and there is a special place in heaven waiting for her someday) re-taught our children their lessons every day. It was grueling but she did it because that's what good parents do. We made sure our children had everything they needed. In doing this, we often wondered what other parents did, especially those were not able or not capable of standing up to the lazy and incompetent educrats

Our learning disabled children both have college degrees from an accredited, respected university in Illinois. Both are at the front end of their careers and are competing straight up against colleagues and competitors who do not have learning disabilities.

I'll leave you with two thoughts. First, one of the most compelling ever pieces of education legislation was No Child left Behind, signed into law by President George W. Bush. Teachers and School Districts hated it to no end because it held them accountable in areas many just swept under the rug. They claimed the federal government didn't send money the same way George Wallace claimed the federal government didn't send money when he was told to protect the Selma to Montgomery marchers.

Second, if we don't do all we can to educate everyone, we'll end up paying more to deal with the after-effects of our educational incompetence. Where do you think gangbangers come from? Or, the chronically unemployed? Letting these kids slide through school leads to far greater incarceration, substance abuse, social service cost and other societal problems. Educate them and we give them a fighting chance to compete.

Remember: Love thy neighbor as thyself.


This is a great story, I have to minor points though:

7 of the top 10 schools in Illinois are CPS. There's trash in there too but a better examole would've been MPS b/c there's basically just trash after Reagan (apparently Hamilton was once decent?)

There's a lot of crappy parts of NCLB that incentivized school administrators to lower standards to get funding. It created a bad cycle of "in order to get students on par with other schools we need funding in order to get funding they need to pass in order for them to pass they need access to the things that other schools have"
Maigh Eo for Sam

NBBomber

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2021, 09:37:51 AM »
Post of the year DGIES!

Tuff to do when it's not even about MUBB.

avid1010

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2021, 09:43:04 AM »
This is a great story, I have to minor points though:

7 of the top 10 schools in Illinois are CPS. There's trash in there too but a better examole would've been MPS b/c there's basically just trash after Reagan (apparently Hamilton was once decent?)

There's a lot of crappy parts of NCLB that incentivized school administrators to lower standards to get funding. It created a bad cycle of "in order to get students on par with other schools we need funding in order to get funding they need to pass in order for them to pass they need access to the things that other schools have"
"Trash" comments are poor, imho.  NCLB had nothing to do with school administrators.  Standards were set at the state level.  I know a number of MU staff that have their children attend schools in MPS, outside of just Reagan, and their children have gone Ivy (while apparently attending trash schools). 

The best comparison for this is when hospitals were rated for performance based upon outcomes.  Long-story-short hospitals stopped taking extremely high-risk patients and trying to push them off on other places to protect their ratings.  It's the same thing with schools.  Charter schools that claim to be the best will never agree to take over a district because they have to educate all students, and they are already creaming off the top just by introducing choice into the equation.  A child whose parents have the ability and/or will to look for a school they feel is best would assumably out-preform a child of similar demographics whose parents don't care to do so.  The vast majority of private voucher schools now get state $ yet refuse to educate the most difficult kids.  I never felt my Jesuit upbringing taught me to turn away the unmotivated/problematic kids...I guess I went to a different church than many of you. 


The Lens

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2021, 09:46:15 AM »
This is a great story, I have to minor points though:

7 of the top 10 schools in Illinois are CPS. There's trash in there too but a better examole would've been MPS b/c there's basically just trash after Reagan (apparently Hamilton was once decent?)

There's a lot of crappy parts of NCLB that incentivized school administrators to lower standards to get funding. It created a bad cycle of "in order to get students on par with other schools we need funding in order to get funding they need to pass in order for them to pass they need access to the things that other schools have"

Rufus King has a very good IB program and Riverside has a college prep curriculum.  I think saying the whole system is trash is painting with a very broad brush.  I have met & worked with grads from almost every school.  If a parent and student are committed and aligned they can get a solid education and move on to college.  What I know for a fact is there are people in every MPS building who care and IMO that's the most important factor. 
The Teal Train has left the station and Lens is day drinking in the bar car.    ---- Dr. Blackheart

History is so valuable if you have the humility to learn from it.    ---- Shaka Smart

avid1010

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2021, 09:50:29 AM »
I'll leave you with two thoughts. First, one of the most compelling ever pieces of education legislation was No Child left Behind, signed into law by President George W. Bush. Teachers and School Districts hated it to no end because it held them accountable in areas many just swept under the rug. They claimed the federal government didn't send money the same way George Wallace claimed the federal government didn't send money when he was told to protect the Selma to Montgomery marchers.

Second, if we don't do all we can to educate everyone, we'll end up paying more to deal with the after-effects of our educational incompetence. Where do you think gangbangers come from? Or, the chronically unemployed? Letting these kids slide through school leads to far greater incarceration, substance abuse, social service cost and other societal problems. Educate them and we give them a fighting chance to compete.

Remember: Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Great story.  Special education is amazingly difficult...there are no special education teachers, and in response, the ability to be licensed as one has gotten ridiculously easy.  I pray to God that my children won't need those services.  I'm fortunate to reside in one of the most affluent districts in the state...my child needed speech...school couldn't staff the positon.

Not sure about your NCLB comment.  It's well understood that NCLB (Bush) and ESAA (Obama) had no positive effect on overall student outcomes. 

Like or dislike John Oliver, but this is the single best piece ever done on testing/NCLB/ESAA...and it will make you laugh.  It's literally the stuff people on both the right and left can agree on.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6lyURyVz7k

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2021, 09:52:19 AM »
It just seems like the "growth strategy" of just five or six years ago has turned around.  They haven't gotten rid of any of their top admissions people, which leads me to believe that they are intentionally decreasing their enrollment and focusing on programs like Nursing, Business and Engineering.

Interesting.  My younger daughter was accepted to MU Nursing and they made a decent financial offer.  She picked UVM (Vermont) and it seems MU was her third choice in the end, so a mind-blowing offer probably would not have made a difference.
If my older received the younger daughter's offer, she probably would be starting her Junior year at Marquette right now.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2021, 09:52:51 AM »
No Child Left Behind was a f*cking disaster.  So much so that it was basically stripped apart with bipartisan support about a decade after it passed.  The acceleration of standardized testing to show "accountability" lead to terrible outcomes that a lot of higher education institutions are still dealing with today.  It actually made American public education worse because it didn't incentivize how children actually learn.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

UWW2MU

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2021, 09:54:27 AM »
Brother Bilsu:

I understand part of what you say. One can only look at the Chicago Public Schools to see what happened when you warehouse and ship out students who have no discernable skills.

But as the father of two children who had learning disabilities, I find the absolutism is your statement disturbing. First of all, schools don't want to educate special needs children, whatever their needs. It makes teachers work for a living and it can be frustrating. Crappie teachers who don't care or don't know how to reach children with special needs lead to students who do not care.

In our case, both my wife and I are MU grads. Her grade point put her near the top of her class and I have a master's degree. Both of us are accomplished professionals. We adopted two wonderful children from orphanages in Eastern Europe. The IEP meetings we had at our supposedly very good public elementary school district became combative when I called out their BS and told them to stop reading off a script and set meaningful, attainable goals for our children. The teachers, in turn, accused us of expecting too much from our children. I can't tell you how many times I've heard teachers complain because they're "stuck" with children who have learning disabilities. One of the LD teachers in our grade school district up north said she wanted the class "because it has fewer children..." Wow!

The bloodiest public argument I ever had with anyone was when an LD teacher told my daughter, my wife and I that my daughter should lower her expectations and we should expect less from her. Really, it happened! I was nose to nose with the woman who spoke as my wife and daughter slipped under the table. On the way out, my daughter looked at me and all she said was, "Thank you Dad!"

The result is my wife (and there is a special place in heaven waiting for her someday) re-taught our children their lessons every day. It was grueling but she did it because that's what good parents do. We made sure our children had everything they needed. In doing this, we often wondered what other parents did, especially those were not able or not capable of standing up to the lazy and incompetent educrats

Our learning disabled children both have college degrees from an accredited, respected university in Illinois. Both are at the front end of their careers and are competing straight up against colleagues and competitors who do not have learning disabilities.

I'll leave you with two thoughts. First, one of the most compelling ever pieces of education legislation was No Child left Behind, signed into law by President George W. Bush. Teachers and School Districts hated it to no end because it held them accountable in areas many just swept under the rug. They claimed the federal government didn't send money the same way George Wallace claimed the federal government didn't send money when he was told to protect the Selma to Montgomery marchers.

Second, if we don't do all we can to educate everyone, we'll end up paying more to deal with the after-effects of our educational incompetence. Where do you think gangbangers come from? Or, the chronically unemployed? Letting these kids slide through school leads to far greater incarceration, substance abuse, social service cost and other societal problems. Educate them and we give them a fighting chance to compete.

Remember: Love thy neighbor as thyself.



This is simultaneously one of the most uplifting and disheartening posts ever.  This proves what an amazing parent you are and your kids are so lucky to have you and the fact they've gone on to be successful thriving adults is humbling.  I hope I can do so well as you have done in your story.

At the same time, the challenges you faced combined with the fact that so many kids out there (especially in impoverished areas) don't have the same support system that yours did, leaves a deep sadness inside of me. 

The education challenges we face are so complex and convoluted and so much stems from the home that can't be controlled by educators that it's difficult to know where to start.  One thing I do know, and a reason I support a broad spectrum of school models (public, charter, choice, private, homeschool) is because there is no right answer.   We need schools for the brightest kids to excel as much as possible, we need "paternalistic" schools that are strict for those who need guidance, we need schools and educators ready/able/willing to do the extra work to help those with learning or other disabilities fulfill their potential, and down the line for so many special cases. 

Some of these can and should be a combination, sometimes it's best to have a school specialize, there's arguments both ways.   All I know is that too often people take a stance based on a "side" they are on and dig in and no one actually wants to make these things happen. Meanwhile you have large school systems with a 6:1 administrator/non faculty to student ratio (compared to something like 15:1 in a typical suburban system) but teacher/student ratio's 5+ students higher then the suburban counterpart.  So many people getting so little actual change to happen, it's so frustrating.


/end rant


Dgies, you really got my blood boiling this morning!

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2021, 10:11:13 AM »
Rufus King has a very good IB program and Riverside has a college prep curriculum.  I think saying the whole system is trash is painting with a very broad brush.  I have met & worked with grads from almost every school.  If a parent and student are committed and aligned they can get a solid education and move on to college.  What I know for a fact is there are people in every MPS building who care and IMO that's the most important factor.

I agree if a parent and student are committed and aligned they'll get a solid education, of course that situation will work anywhere. A teachers job is to get a certain % of the people who are in gently intelligent but lack support, or visa versa, to get a quality education. In a setting like MPS that's much more unlikely to happen.

https://247wallst.com/state/this-is-the-worst-school-district-in-wisconsin/

"The Milwaukee School District is by far the largest in Wisconsin, with total enrollment exceeding 75,000. It also ranks as the worst school district in the state. Just 18% of students are proficient in reading, and only 15% are proficient in math, according to state test scores. "

Of course there's always exceptions, and it's never ok to write someone off because of where they went to school.
Maigh Eo for Sam

dgies9156

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2021, 10:57:54 AM »
No Child Left Behind was a f*cking disaster.  So much so that it was basically stripped apart with bipartisan support about a decade after it passed.  The acceleration of standardized testing to show "accountability" lead to terrible outcomes that a lot of higher education institutions are still dealing with today.  It actually made American public education worse because it didn't incentivize how children actually learn.

Brother Fluff:

No way. NCLB gave us ammunition when the educrats pulled their bureaucratic BS. Mention NCLB to them and immediately they become cationic, almost in fetal positions and if you appear to have intellectual and financial horsepower, the educrats quiver and they usually cave. That's why I always went to those meetings before I went to work and wore a blue pinstripe suit. It scared the hell out of the educrats!

Incidentally, my wife agrees with you! But that's beside the point.

What NCLB did was to remind school districts that they can't ignore needs of certain student segments. It made education a civil right. In our community, our high school has an incredible LD program (very much UNLIKE the grade school district). The complaint against NCLB was and is there was no funding for it. My response back, which made people in our community VERY angry, was "do you fund football? Didn't you just spend $30 million for a new swimming pool?"

My daughter was involved in a very, very costly program for the district. We knew the costs which the District was assuming but never said a word because some in our community would take the same position as Brother Bilsu took -- "My God, why are they spending that kind of money on YOUR child?"

Nobody likes standardized testing. But I'm going to let you in on a little secret. The whole world is a standardized test. The educrats can claim it's unfair, but what's more unfair -- identifying weaknesses and forcing schools to deal with them or passing students who lack basic real world skills and having them fail once they walk from the halls of education?

You tell me which one is better for society?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 11:02:09 AM by dgies9156 »

warriorchick

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2021, 10:58:22 AM »


7 of the top 10 schools in Illinois are CPS.


How many of those 7 schools are magnet programs?  When you have 100,000 high school students to choose from, it's probably pretty easy to skim off the highest 5-10 percent and set up top-notch programs for them.
Have some patience, FFS.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2021, 11:12:37 AM »
Nobody likes standardized testing. But I'm going to let you in on a little secret. The whole world is a standardized test. The educrats can claim it's unfair, but what's more unfair -- identifying weaknesses and forcing schools to deal with them or passing students who lack basic real world skills and having them fail once they walk from the halls of education?


No the whole world isn't a standardized test.  That's the point!  At very few points in ones life, if ever, does a person have to sit down and fill out a test to determine their proficiency in a subject.  You succeed in the real world by linking concepts together...by solving problems...by working with other people.  Life isn't filling out bubbles with your #2 pencil.

Furthermore, the irony in your statement is that the focus on testing has left society with students who lack "basic real world skills."  Ask higher education administrators and they will tell you that the number of students lacking proficiency in math and reading INCREASED since the time of NCLB.  I am not necessarily blaming NCLB for that, but I know a TON of teachers who will tell you that the way they taught fundamentally changed over the last 15 years, and it was certainly  NOT for the benefit of the student.

And finally, American education, despite spending pretty much more than any other country, has declined when compared to the rest of the world when it comes to basic proficiency.  And IMO that is because we no longer teach to how children actually learn.  We teach to how they will perform on a test - and that's shameful.
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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2021, 11:17:08 AM »
How many of those 7 schools are magnet programs?  When you have 100,000 high school students to choose from, it's probably pretty easy to skim off the highest 5-10 percent and set up top-notch programs for them.

27/148 rated in the top 100 (1,292 HS total)

7 traditional, 20 magnet. The point is there's plenty of great CPS schools that are rated above most of the suburban schools many on this board sent their kids to. But we focus on the ones in Hegewish, Lawndale, Back of the Yards, Austin, etc. which aren't neighborhoods you should compare to in the first place. If you're in Lake Forest, and crapping on the CPS system, you should ask where would you live around the city that meets your income bracket and realistically where do families in that bracket send their kids. You can't act as if living in the city automatically sends your kids to Steinmetz HS or something.
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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2021, 11:41:28 AM »

No the whole world isn't a standardized test.  That's the point!  At very few points in ones life, if ever, does a person have to sit down and fill out a test to determine their proficiency in a subject.  You succeed in the real world by linking concepts together...by solving problems...by working with other people.  Life isn't filling out bubbles with your #2 pencil.

Furthermore, the irony in your statement is that the focus on testing has left society with students who lack "basic real world skills."  Ask higher education administrators and they will tell you that the number of students lacking proficiency in math and reading INCREASED since the time of NCLB.  I am not necessarily blaming NCLB for that, but I know a TON of teachers who will tell you that the way they taught fundamentally changed over the last 15 years, and it was certainly  NOT for the benefit of the student.

And finally, American education, despite spending pretty much more than any other country, has declined when compared to the rest of the world when it comes to basic proficiency.  And IMO that is because we no longer teach to how children actually learn.  We teach to how they will perform on a test - and that's shameful.

100%.  People who don't understand education think that everyone needs to fit into a square hole... even if they are a round or triangle peg.  This is where we've been wrong for the last 50-60 years. 

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2021, 12:02:31 PM »
This seems to be turning into a similar thread on the Superbar regarding standardized tests.
If the student when he leaves HS can function and be productive in the real world that seems to be what matters.
It looks like schools will never bat 100% in terms of being able to teach with optimal efficiency to every student when modes of learning differ greatly between students.

Being in the technical area, drive/motivation and competition seems to compel individuals to be the absolute best they can be.
Students from China and India have so much competition from each other, the parents over there probably aren't crying Jr isn't being fed courses the way Jr learns best.

 

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