2021-22 NBA Thread: The Bucks are Reigning Champs

[The Sultan]

If I was Jenkins I would pound it inside and attack the paint much more regularly.  Brooks and Bane had rough performances but this is a very talented team.  Morant can get a decent look at will.  You establish the interior and play more inside out. 

Running offense through a post player clogs the lane too much for your best offensive weapon. Didn't I see that Ja score more points in the lane than any other player this year?  Why would then play inside out with a post?

[The Sultan]

Remember that the older post players had the advantage of playing in the illegal defense era.  They never saw anything resembling a zone.

[MU82]

I was pretty young but Rodman was a total freak of nature.  Phil Jackson has said he's the greatest athlete he ever coached.  Green is a heck of a player but I would not compare him to Rodman. Shaq was also a very young player during that stretch.  He would frankly obliterate Draymond Green and it would be ugly.

Neither of us can "prove" anything about whether or not Shaq would have "frankly obliterated" Green. It's your opinion.'

It's my opinion as someone who saw Rodman play hundreds and hundreds of games that, defensively, Green has many similarities to Rodman.

[Uncle Rico]

Neither of us can "prove" anything about whether or not Shaq would have "frankly obliterated" Green. It's your opinion.'

It's my opinion as someone who saw Rodman play hundreds and hundreds of games that, defensively, Green has many similarities to Rodman.

George Mikan would eat all 3 of those guys for breakfast.  Same with Bevo Francis

[JWags85]

There is no Shaq in the NBA anymore.  Ben Wallace was not bigger than Draymond.

I'm not sure if this is teal, but Ben Wallace was 6'9 and Draymond is 6'6.  Thats not insignificant.  Not to mention a weight difference.

The Rodman/Green comparison I do agree with.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Giannis switched his pivot foot on that play, but it was still cool.

He's been awesome, and the Bucks have been very impressive.

Perfectly legal play.  The ball is released before the pivot foot lands.  For more, see link:


https://youtu.be/TsFX4l0DjCg

[MU82]

Perfectly legal play.  The ball is released before the pivot foot lands.

Just watched it 10 more times. Every time, it looks to me like he establishes his right foot as his pivot foot when he picks up his dribble and is confronted by Williams; he then moves around Williams with a massive step onto his left foot. His right foot is off the ground when he throws the ball off the backboard.

But it wasn't called, and that's all that matters. It was an exciting play that helped the Bucks win their playoff opener.

[BM1090]

Just watched it 10 more times. Every time, it looks to me like he establishes his right foot as his pivot foot when he picks up his dribble and is confronted by Williams; he then moves around Williams with a massive step onto his left foot. His right foot is off the ground when he throws the ball off the backboard.

But it wasn't called, and that's all that matters. It was an exciting play that helped the Bucks win their playoff opener.

I think the rule is that he can lift that foot. It just can't hit the ground again.

[MU82]

I think the rule is that he can lift that foot. It just can't hit the ground again.

Maybe evolved from the eurostep? I'd like to see that rule in writing, because I just took a quick look and couldn't find it.

At the college and HS level, I've seen a lot less obvious pivot-foot-switching called traveling.

[forgetful]

Just watched it 10 more times. Every time, it looks to me like he establishes his right foot as his pivot foot when he picks up his dribble and is confronted by Williams; he then moves around Williams with a massive step onto his left foot. His right foot is off the ground when he throws the ball off the backboard.

But it wasn't called, and that's all that matters. It was an exciting play that helped the Bucks win their playoff opener.

It was definitely a travel, but like you say it wasn't called (and pretty much isn't called in modern NBA), and it was an exciting play.

In the discussions regarding older players and modern. Older players, that was called a travel 10/10. Modern players, there are a dozen of those plays a game (feet/traveling, not alley-oop to themselves).

[BM1090]

Maybe evolved from the eurostep? I'd like to see that rule in writing, because I just took a quick look and couldn't find it.

At the college and HS level, I've seen a lot less obvious pivot-foot-switching called traveling.

Agreed, and I could be wrong. But that's the explanation that I heard yesterday.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Maybe evolved from the eurostep? I'd like to see that rule in writing, because I just took a quick look and couldn't find it.

At the college and HS level, I've seen a lot less obvious pivot-foot-switching called traveling.

Found this explanation:

NBA rulebook section XIII, paragraph d:

"If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball."

It is explicitly allowed to raise your pivot foot. What's forbidden is to bring it back down again before shooting/passing.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

It was definitely a travel, but like you say it wasn't called (and pretty much isn't called in modern NBA), and it was an exciting play.

It's definitely not a travel.

[MuggsyB]

Neither of us can "prove" anything about whether or not Shaq would have "frankly obliterated" Green. It's your opinion.'

It's my opinion as someone who saw Rodman play hundreds and hundreds of games that, defensively, Green has many similarities to Rodman.

Green has some of Rodman's defensive qualities, but he's not the entire package.  Rodman is maybe the only player I have ever seen that could guard all five positions well.  He had incredible lateral quickness, upper and lower body strength, anticipation. transition speed, and kangaroo hops.  Green is nowhere near the help defender or transition defender Rodman was or of course rebounder.  He also really never had to play against quality post players.  The tape doesn't lie, Rodman was a an absolute freak and generational talent.  Had the guy applied himself he would have been far better offensively as well

[Uncle Rico]

Anyway you cut, I'm glad they didn't peddle his azz

[MuggsyB]

Running offense through a post player clogs the lane too much for your best offensive weapon. Didn't I see that Ja score more points in the lane than any other player this year?  Why would then play inside out with a post?

Because Golden State does not have a rim protector and you can create open space by attacking the paint.  It wouldn't change Ja's opportunities at the rim.  I don't see Memphis beating Golden State in a shoot out.  However if they attack relentlessly with their size,, and can dominate the paint with deuces and FT's, they have a better chance of winning imo. 

[The Sultan]

Well you should email the coach and let him know that the way he won 3 of 4 against GSW in the regular season, and getting the #2 seed in the process, should be changed based on your watching one game in the playoffs.

[MuggsyB]

Well you should email the coach and let him know that the way he won 3 of 4 against GSW in the regular season, and getting the #2 seed in the process, should be changed based on your watching one game in the playoffs.

Fluffy, you're not debating my point.  Do you honestly think Memphis can win this series if it's a shoot out?  Do you really they can out triple Curry, Thompson, Poole, and company?

[Jockey]

Because Golden State does not have a rim protector and you can create open space by attacking the paint.  It wouldn't change Ja's opportunities at the rim.  I don't see Memphis beating Golden State in a shoot out.  However if they attack relentlessly with their size,, and can dominate the paint with deuces and FT's, they have a better chance of winning imo.

You are overrating the importance of a rim protector.

Draymond is a great defensive player. Looney is an outstanding defensive player. There is way more to defense than blocking shots.

[The Sultan]

Fluffy, you're not debating my point.  Do you honestly think Memphis can win this series if it's a shoot out?  Do you really they can out triple Curry, Thompson, Poole, and company?

I think they should do what got them there.

[MuggsyB]

I think they should do what got them there.

It's a pretty bad sign for Memphis that they made 16 threes and lost. 

[forgetful]

It's definitely not a travel.

Watch it in slow motion. It is actually a pretty absurd travel, but more difficult to see in real time. He picks up his dribble with his weight actually on his left foot. He then steps onto his right to square up. In the NBA, they let you get away with this two steps being establishing the pivot foot (so being generous the right foot).

He then lifts his right foot to push it back a few inches to gain leverage. Even with the generous NBA rules, he now has to shoot or pass.

He now steps through with his left, and lifts his right foot again.

That's a lot of steps.

Like I said, this is typical NBA type moves in the modern era (and there are far more egregious non-calls on travels), but it is actually 4 or 5 steps. In the end it doesn't matter too, it wasn't called and the game was never in doubt.

[JWags85]

Green has some of Rodman's defensive qualities, but he's not the entire package.  Rodman is maybe the only player I have ever seen that could guard all five positions well.  He had incredible lateral quickness, upper and lower body strength, anticipation. transition speed, and kangaroo hops.  Green is nowhere near the help defender or transition defender Rodman was or of course rebounder.  He also really never had to play against quality post players.  The tape doesn't lie, Rodman was a an absolute freak and generational talent.  Had the guy applied himself he would have been far better offensively as well

I know you live out there, but do you even watch the Warriors?  Draymond is the key cog in very good defensive Warriors team and he routinely guards all 5 positions, and does it very well.  4 first team All-Defense, 2 2nd teams, the only time he didn't was the COVID year.  Add in a DPOY.  He'd be first team All Defense this year if he played more than half the season.  The fact that he will likely still be 2nd team speaks to his impact on a Warriors team that was the best defensive team in the league when he was in the lineup.

Draymond never had to defend Shaq, but Rodman didn't play in an era of 6'9-7' players who could step out to the 3 pt line or go inside.  This isn't slighting Rodman but just pointing out a ridiculous undersell of Draymond.  He's trending towards no doubt HOF selection despite averaging under 9 pts a game for his career.

You are overrating the importance of a rim protector.

Draymond is a great defensive player. Looney is an outstanding defensive player. There is way more to defense than blocking shots.

Is this just adjective variation or are you saying Looney is a better defensive player than Draymond?

[The Sultan]

It's a pretty bad sign for Memphis that they made 16 threes and lost. 

Right. So why would you think the solution is to take less 3s?  Their problem is on the defensive end.

[MU82]

Found this explanation:

NBA rulebook section XIII, paragraph d:

"If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball."

It is explicitly allowed to raise your pivot foot. What's forbidden is to bring it back down again before shooting/passing.

I believe he established two pivot feet on the play, and if rules were followed he would have been called for a violation. I'd love to hear Steve Javie discuss this while watching it in slo-mo, because I find it interesting. But we've already spent too much time discussing a non-call that didn't even decide a game, and yes I know I'm the one who brought it up. Have a good one.