Steve Novak opposes library sign addressing systemic racism

[dgies9156]

Not relevant to lending but relevant to what type of loan you'd get approved for to purchase your next home. I think it's safe to say that this isn't a one off and that not everyone is smart enough to do a comparison.

https://fox59.com/news/indianapolis-homeowner-files-discrimination-complaint-after-removal-of-black-identifiers-leads-to-100000-appraisal-increase/

Brother Galway:

I hope to hell the complainant, if there is fact governing his allegation, not only wins but federal regulators ban the appraiser from completing work for federally insured financial institutions or for federally backed mortgages purchased by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

Regulators have that kind of power.

Every real estate lender has a group of "approved" appraisers. Management reviews credentials and the Board of Directors approves appraisers who can work for financial institutions. If it's a mortgage broker, the broker's right to sell to major public and private sector mortgage conduits can be revoked if it is found the appraisals are discriminatory or otherwise not in compliance with federal and state law and regulation.

The savings and loan crisis of 1982-1989 shed new light on appraisers, as did the sub-prime crisis of 2008. If these guys and gals are going to play "fun with numbers" and do "make as instructed" appraisals, they'll end up in prison.

[Pakuni]

That being said, I again would like to reiterate my point that for every other culture, when you came to the states it was the lowest economic point you would be. However, since this is not the case for African americans, does that not show us there are societal issues keeping them from accumulating generational wealth? Some of it is internal (birth control, gangs, embracing education) some of it is society's fault (racial profiling, harsher sentencing, redlining, education funding, access to nutritional food, access to quality healthcare, access to voting, access to legal advice re landlords or water or unfair housing  practices or public works issues)

The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?

When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or  at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.

None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.

[MU82]

Good, serious discussion about an incredibly important topic, folks. Thanks.

[muwarrior69]

Not really.

My point (well-made or not) was that biases and stereotypes are Not the same as racism. We all have these no matter how open minded we are.

TAMU's point, I believe, is that biases and stereotypes contribute to systemic racism.

I stand by my point and fully agree with TAMU.

So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.

[Babybluejeans]

So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.

Most people do, yea, hence *systemic*. Of course, not all races suffer the consequences.

[Hards Alumni]

So we all have biases and stereotypes which are not the same as racism but they contribute to systemic racism. I can only conclude that all races contribute to systemic racism.

Yes, everyone is racist to some degree.  It's human nature.  Better to acknowledge the problem and examine its roots rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

[Galway Eagle]

The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?

When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or  at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.

None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.

I agree, it is extremely important to ask "why" I only named those things as issues that I personally find myself more on the "personal responsibility" side of things. Granted when you have influential African American pastors saying 'birth control is the white mans way of stopping us from reproducing' then it also becomes a cultural issue rather than a personal responsibility issue. I don't think African Americans are more promiscuous, I think less stigma around sex + lack of parental involvement + a issue with accepting birth control + no stigma of teen pregnancy = teen pregnancy. I think with gangs it's a different story, having boxed in the Chicago and Milwaukee community centers I don't buy the "the bot after school opportunities" myth. It's societal (sometimes even familial) pressure from where they live to feel safe on their block and make easy money. Regarding education, I've made known my fiancé was a math teacher at one of the struggling MPS schools, some parents try to make their kids care but if they themselves are HS dropouts it's hard to instill educational values in a child, on the other hand I'd also hear of parents who just "gave up" and don't care, which probably relates to the maturity of the parent and how equipped they are to deal with the issues. IMO, that's an issue of if all you see around you are high school drop outs, or at best people who were passed to let the school get more $$ then why would they think there's something more out there?

you're dead on about the comparisons made with the East Asians or Irish, they were such minor setbacks that still didn't put them at the absolute bottom of racial hierarchy. 

[muwarrior69]

Yes, everyone is racist to some degree.  It's human nature.  Better to acknowledge the problem and examine its roots rather than pretend it doesn't exist.

I believe you just answered your own question and no one is pretending it does not exist.

[GB Warrior]

Just dropping this off

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism

[MU82]

Just dropping this off

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/more-development-would-ruin-our-neighborhoods-character-and-that-character-is-systemic-racism

Brilliant.

[Billy Hoyle]

The question you might want to ask here is why are the things you label as "internal" more of a problem (or seemingly so) in the Black community than other communities?
Why are young Black men more likely to join a gang and be incarcerated, or young Black women more likely to become pregnant earlier in life and outside a stable relationship? Why is there a perception that Black families care less about education?
Are Blacks by nature more violent and promiscuous, and less industrious and achievement oriented?
Or is there a centuries-long legacy of discrimination and deprivation that has long-lasting cultural impacts that don't simply go away because someone changed a law in 1968?

When someone like Billy says "But what about the Asians" or "What about the Irish," what they're ignoring is that widespread discrimination against those groups in this country can be measured in years,or  at worst decades, while for Blacks it's measured in centuries. And includes actual enslavement, not just denial of some employment opportunities.
And when Wags tells us about his college friend from Nigeria, what he's missing is that just because that friend has the same skin color as many Blacks in America, it doesn't mean he faced the same challenges.

None of this is to say that there aren't plenty of self-inflicted wounds in the Black community. There are many. But I think some people are all-too-willing to overlook the multigenerational impacts and legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country.

For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom.  However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.

As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now where a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.

[Galway Eagle]

For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom.  However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.

As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now where a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.

I could be wrong but didnt the CIA-Contra- Crack theory get at least partially proven? That was happening at that time, coinciding with Nixon's war on drugs that disproportionally incarcerated African American individuals.

[Pakuni]

For one, I did not bring up the Irish. As much as some want to say they were slaves we know that not to be the case. They were indentured servants who could earn their freedom.  However, Asians were slaves (Chinese) and were not even allowed to get US citizenship until the 40's. A white person would also be stripped of US citizenship for marrying an Asian. And, Asians were subject to the same discriminatory laws as Blacks were - the SCOTUS even ruled as much.

As for the Civil Rights bill, what happened between 1960 and now where 78% of Black households were two-parent families, to now whnre a majority are single parent homes? Was it that bill that caused a cultural shift or something else? Serious question.

1. No, Billy, there was not widespread slavery of the Chinese in the United States. And certainly not for 250+ years. Chinese laborers absolutely endured horrible treatment, discrimination and denial of basic rights, but not slavery. They weren't brought and kept here against their will. They weren't sold. Their families were not torn apart. They weren't hunted down if they left their workplace. The situations aren't close to comparable.

2. This is a fair question, but with a complex set of answers.  And I couldn't possibly touch upon all of them here. But ...
For one, the number of kids in single-parent households has grown significantly for ALL racial groups, not just Black children. For example, in 1960, the figure for white kids in single-parent homes was just 7 percent. Today, it's 24 percent.  Unless my math is wrong  - and that's absolutely possible - that's about a 250 percent increase, In comparison, the rate for Black children has gone from 26 percent in 1960 to 64 percent today. That's a 146 percent increase.

Other factors:
- The mass incarceration of Black males fueled by overpolicing and unequal sentencing  (1 in 3 Black males spend time incarcerated, compared to 1 in 17 white males).
- The death of manufacturing in inner cities.
- Government programs that incentivized single parenthood
- Higher teen pregnancy rates (younger parents are obviously less likely to co-habitate).
I'm sure there are tons of other reasons.
What do you chalk it up to? Serious question.