Shaka Smart, Relationships and Trouble in Madison

[Its DJOver]

Lol, are you kidding me?  Al was an edge guy.  And he always knew how to find the edge.  The more chaos, the better. 

And honestly, if you didn't know Al, or you don't know someone who did, it might be time to sit this one out.

Weird gatekeeping, but okay. I've made my point pretty clearly in this thread. Al didn't take sh!t from anyone, he would not deal with the level of sh!t in todays game. No way to prove it, no way to disprove it. Not trying to diminish Al in any way (and dont think I am), so I'm not really sure why you're getting so agitated about this hypothetical.

[Lennys Tap]

And it amazes me that scoopers think that they guy that said "F you NCAA, I don't like the seed you gave me so I'm going to go win the NIT instead" would jump through all the hoops of dealing with the AAU circuit, dealing with shoe companies, dealing with boosters, dealing with players parents acting as agents for their 18 year old kids.

Also, a trade mark of Al's teams were that the upperclassmen ran the show. It wasnt just that Freshman couldn't play, it was that he ran with his older guys, always. Convincing kids to not play/marginally play until their Juniors can't be done the way it was in his day.

Further, imagine how how both the fans and boosters would react to finding out that the head coach is not only not running practice, but hes doing a completely unrelated motorcycle ride instead.

Al was truly a legend of his time, but part of the reason he walked away was because he saw the way the game was heading. Theres no shame in saying that and it doesn't diminish his legacy at all.

All IMO of course.

1.When Al gave the proverbial finger to the NCAA a) you could and b) the NIT was still a prestigious tournament. The NCAA made a rule that said never again and "Voila!" Never as much as a peep from Al.

2. George Thompson and Dean Meminger were stars as sophomores (there first season of eligibility). Jim Chones and Bo Ellis we're stars as freshmen. If you could play you did. A senior (Bill Neary) might start over a freshman, especially one with an ego problem (Bernard Toone) but in the NCAA tourney Toone got the big minutes.

3. If you had the 2nd most successful program in college basketball the reaction would be crickets or bemusement. It would only have cemented his image - as it did then.

4. Al walked away just like he would today - on his own terms. He wasn't a "lifer" at anything, including coaching. It was one of the reasons he was so interesting.

Sorry, but your arguments are either silly of ignore context.

[Its DJOver]

LOL, sorry for upsetting the "you better not say anything in any way negative about anything to do with the 70s" crowd. It's my opinion that Al wouldnt deal with what it would take to coach today. You guys can stop gnashing your dentures and put them away for the night. Funny watching the geezers get upset though.

[Pakuni]

Truly impressed by the absolute certainty some people have over how a person they don't know would have acted if magically transported 50 years into the future.

[Lennys Tap]

LOL, sorry for upsetting the "you better not say anything in any way negative about anything to do with the 70s" crowd. It's my opinion that Al wouldnt deal with what it would take to coach today. You guys can stop gnashing your dentures and put them away for the night. Funny watching the geezers get upset though.

We won't discuss anything negative about Al? Guess you haven't seen threads on his technicals that cost us another chance at a FF (vs Indiana) or another National Championship (vs NC State). And plenty of folks were pissed that he left at such a young age (47) and that he anointed Hank as his successor when Denny Crum was supposedly interested. And other stuff too.

But no problem, DJO. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed. It's in the Scoop Bill of Rights.

[Its DJOver]

We won't discuss anything negative about Al? Guess you haven't seen threads on his technicals that cost us another chance at a FF (vs Indiana) or another National Championship (vs NC State). And plenty of folks were pissed that he left at such a young age (47) and that he anointed Hank as his successor when Denny Crum was supposedly interested. And other stuff too.

But no problem, DJO. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed. It's in the Scoop Bill of Rights.

Whatever man, I've expressed my opinion (with "IMO" and "it's my opinions"). You clearly disagree, that's your opinion. It's a hypothetical. No one is "right" or "wrong".

Learned the difference between a team stat and an individual stat yet?

[Lennys Tap]

Whatever man, I've expressed my opinion (with "IMO" and "it's my opinions"). You clearly disagree, that's your opinion. It's a hypothetical. No one is "right" or "wrong".

Learned the difference between a team stat and an individual stat yet?

Whatever, "man". All opinions aren't created equal. Some are informed by the facts, some are made up without any factual underpinnings.

Whether making dopey misstatements re Al or insisting that leading a team (that goes 3-4 without you) to 50 wins in 51 games is "meaningless" you are very good at the latter.

[Its DJOver]

Whatever, "man". All opinions aren't created equal. Some are informed by the facts, some are made up without any factual underpinnings.

Whether making dopey misstatements re Al or insisting that leading a team (that goes 3-4 without you) to 50 wins in 51 games is "meaningless" you are very good at the latter.

Honest question, do you know what a hypothetical is?  There's not going to be some "gotcha" moment.  That you don't seem to understand this is honestly a bit concerning?  The fact that your argument is

4. Al walked away just like he would today - on his own terms. He wasn't a "lifer" at anything, including coaching. It was one of the reasons he was so interesting.

Makes me think that we actually mostly agree.  It's my opinion that if he could observe the current landscape of the game he would choose to walk away on his own term (to use your words).  Again, this can't be proved or disproved.  The fact that you seem to be trying to prove otherwise makes me think that you're just arguing for arguing's sake.  Not trying to shame or anything, that's what the internet is for, just want to make sure that you know that there is literally no way for you to prove yourself right.

Don't know if you've got some beef against me personally, or you just really like trying to prove unproveable points, but the whole "I've been around longer so I automatically know more than you, and because of that your opinions are wrong" vibe you're throwing off is really a strange one.

[The Lens]

On a road trip out west Al rerouted the team travel itinerary to DFW so Chones would meet with the ABA.  That's not exactly "my way or the highway".

That's some Coach Cal level stuff right there.  Players first.

[Its DJOver]

Some additional content, for observational sake.

Maybe..... I think

I questioning whether he would.....  I just doubt

I think 

I think

All IMO of course.

The rest of the time I think

No way to prove it, no way to disprove it.

It's my opinion

I've expressed my opinion

It's my opinion

vs.

His teams would still be tough and disciplined.

Opinion stated as fact

He would still be a character who could work a room.

Opinion stated as fact

His players would still love him.

Opinion stated as fact

That wouldn't have been part of his experience as a player or a coach.

Opinion stated as fact.

Some people leave themselves open for discussion, some people always think they're the smartest in the room and just want to argue.  To each their own.

[Lennys Tap]

Honest question, do you know what a hypothetical is?  There's not going to be some "gotcha" moment.  That you don't seem to understand this is honestly a bit concerning?  The fact that your argument is

When you base your hypothetical on misstatements of facts (like Al only ran with his upperclassmen, you had to be a junior before you got playing time) your hypothetical has no value. Don't you get that? Do you really think a hypothetical based on facts is equivalent to one based on fiction?

DJO, I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You're very likely a good guy. So are the "geezers" with the dentures who post here. And just maybe they have a better grasp of the facts from their time as students than you do.

[rocky_warrior]

And just maybe they have a better grasp of the facts from their time as students than you do.

But maybe aren't the best at predicting personalities sent through the time machine - eh?

sometime in 2072: "Lenny's tap was wise and had historical perspective on MUScoop.  He would be master of this virtual artificial intelligence bar, dipshit!"
also in 2072: "Nope.  Rip Lennys tap"

[The Lens]

Son, sit down. 

[Its DJOver]

But maybe aren't the best at predicting personalities sent through the time machine - eh?

Ding, ding, ding.

Son, sit down. 

Interesting that you felt the need to respond to a post that you weren't involved in.  Please continue your gatekeeping, it's working tremendously so far.

[Its DJOver]

When you base your hypothetical on misstatements of facts (like Al only ran with his upperclassmen, you had to be a junior before you got playing time) your hypothetical has no value. Don't you get that? Do you really think a hypothetical based on facts is equivalent to one based on fiction?

DJO, I have absolutely nothing against you personally. You're very likely a good guy. So are the "geezers" with the dentures who post here. And just maybe they have a better grasp of the facts from their time as students than you do.

Thanks for the respectful response.  I didn't say that you HAD to be a Junior to get playing time, I said that Al running with his older players was a staple.  While there are examples of players getting minutes as underclassmen, there are also plenty of examples of underclassmen that were better players being passed on in favor of upperclassmen (Bernard Toone, that little incident during the Cincinnati game).

I'm really not quite sure where the rest of your disagreement comes from.  I stated that Al would have had to adjust, this seems to be pretty much universally accepted because of how the game has changed.  I just don't believe that Al would have wanted to deal with all the adjustments necessary.  It's fine if you think he would, I just disagree.

[The Lens]

Ding, ding, ding.

Interesting that you felt the need to respond to a post that you weren't involved in.  Please continue your gatekeeping, it's working tremendously so far.

Or I could be you, someone who insists Al was a "my way or the highway guy" even when someone presents evidence (bc they or someone close to them were there) that Al rerouted the team plane so that the best player could go pro.

And btw if Al McGuire is involved in any argument, I'm involved in it.  It's sort of the family business.

[The Sultan]

I kinda think that if Al were around today, he would be coaching in the NBA and not college.

[Its DJOver]

Or I could be you, someone who insists Al was a "my way or the highway guy" even when someone presents evidence (bc they or someone close to them were there) that Al rerouted the team plane so that the best player could go pro.

And btw if Al McGuire is involved in any argument, I'm involved in it.  It's sort of the family business.

Telling someone that they can't participate in a discussion unless they either knew Al, or knew someone who did (which coincidently I do) is the fastest way to get someone to continue in the discussion. 

Think Sultan is right, if he were a coach today, it'd probably be in the NBA.  Also see Lenny's point point about Al not being a "lifer" at anything, so if he were still around, there's a strong possibility that he wouldn't be involved in basketball in any way.  That's the whole point of a hypothetical, we don't know.

[The Sultan]

One of the reasons he wasn't a "lifer" is because he wanted to make more money, which is why he left for Medalist in the first place.  It would be a lot harder for him to walk away from the salaries he would be making in either college or NBA now.

[The Lens]

Telling someone that they can't participate in a discussion unless they either knew Al, or knew someone who did (which coincidently I do) is the fastest way to get someone to continue in the discussion. 

Think Sultan is right, if he were a coach today, it'd probably be in the NBA.  Also see Lenny's point point about Al not being a "lifer" at anything, so if he were still around, there's a strong possibility that he wouldn't be involved in basketball in any way.  That's the whole point of a hypothetical, we don't know.

I don't mean to jump all over you, but "my way or the highway" is the absolute worst way to describe the Al McGuire Era.

[Its DJOver]

I don't mean to jump all over you, but "my way or the highway" is the absolute worst way to describe the Al McGuire Era.

Getting into literal fistfights with your players, and giving the NCAA the middle finger suggest a "my way or the highway" mentality.  Are there other mentalities in that era too? Sure, "my teams are arrogant and obnoxious" is a pretty good summary, but "I don't discuss basketball, I dictate basketball" is very much similar to a "mworth" mindset.

[The Lens]

"I may not agree with Goose on Vietnam or with everything the blacks say on campus, but at least it's occurred to me that they could be right and I could be wrong"

--- Alfred James McGuire

[Its DJOver]

Quotes citing the Vietnam War, and quotes citing basketball are two very different things.  You can be incredibly open to other's suggestions/opinions on topics not related to your profession, and at the same time have the "I run this program, what I say goes" mentality surrounding your job.  The two philosophies are not mutually exclusive.

[The Lens]

Quotes citing the Vietnam War, and quotes citing basketball are two very different things.  You can be incredibly open to other's suggestions/opinions on topics not related to your profession, and at the same time have the "I run this program, what I say goes" mentality surrounding your job.  The two philosophies are not mutually exclusive.

Running a program is about way more than basketball.

[Silent Verbal]

I kinda think that if Al were around today, he would be coaching in the NBA and not college.

Agreed, because that's where he'd make the most money.  I think he tried to leave for the Bucks while he was at MU.