If we don't have the money...

[Steve Buscemi]

Why stop there?

Woo hoo!  We won another NCAA Championship!

Congrats everyone!!!!  We are Marquette!!!

Hang the banner.  Stone cold lock as a 11 seed, last 5 in, prior to the conference tourneys.  Stone cold lock. 

[f/k/a humanlung]

That's not backed up by facts. Us making the tournament is.

Definition of fact:

1a: something that has actual existence
         space exploration is now a fact
b: an actual occurrence
         prove the fact of damage
2: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
         These are the hard facts of the case.
3: the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY
         a question of fact hinges on evidence
4: a thing done


I'm sorry...which definition of "FACT" are you using in your statement?   

Considering the NCAA Tournament didn't happen -or even get to selection - I am interested in how this is a type of "fact" that escaped Merriam-Webster.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Repost.

"Close" referred to the won/loss record that I put immediately below that statement.

We could also look at progress:

MU

2015/2016:  20-13, no post season
2016/2017:  19-13, NCAA 1st round loss (20 point loss to South Carolina)
2017/2018:  21-14, NIT quarters
2018/2019:  24-10, NCAA 1st round loss (19 point loss to Murray State)
2019/2020:  18-12, T6th in BE
2020/2021:  13-14, 8th in BE, 1st round BET loss, no post season

Mississippi State

2015/2016:  14-17, no post season
2016/2017:  16-16, no post season
2017/2018:  25-12, NIT semis
2018/2019:  23-11, NCAA 1st round loss (4pt loss to Liberty)
2019/2020:  20-11, T4th in SEC
2020/2021:  14-13, 9th in SEC, advanced to 2nd round of SEC tournament

Wojo beats Howland in NCAA bids, 2-1 (but considering MU's performance, I do not know if this is a good thing).

As far as trajectory, I would take Mississippi State over MU - especially considering the respective starting points.  As I posted previously, Wojo inherited a program that had been to the NCAAs in five of the prior six year, while Howland walked into one with one NCAA bid in the last six years (and that bid was six years prior to his arrival).

The W/L records are close but Howland has a lot tougher climb than Wojo.  In terms of post season, I will take any bet that you want to make regarding post-season success over whatever time period you want to cover.

It's 3-1 in seasons where you played well enough to earn an NCAAT appearance.

How is peaking in Year 4 and trending down (MSST) better trajectory than peaking in year 5 and trending down (MU)? Especially when the year after their respective peaks, MSST was a lock for the NIT and MU was a lock for the NCAAs prior to COVID?

Wojo did inherit a better program. His ceiling should be higher. But they inherited similar rosters. KenPom rated Wojo's first roster as 93rd, Howland's as 110th. Their potential floors were about the same.

[f/k/a humanlung]

Ok.

You're right.


But i highlight that you did not take me up on my bet.

[Uncle Rico]

If you're arguing Howland's record is better at MSU than Wojo at MUBB, then you're not serious about having "higher expectations"

And for the people that don't understand the economics of major college athletics and dismiss the notion Mississippi State doesn't spend on basketball, take a look at their operating budget and how much more they can afford on a program they don't care about.  SEC money versus Big East money is staggering.

Mississippi State has as many Final 4's as Marquette since the tournament expanded to 64.  Rick Stansbury took them to as many NCAA tournaments as Tom Crean took Marquette in the same time frame. 

As for Ben Howland, ask yourself how a coach who went to 3 straight Final 4's wandered around looking for a job and the best he could do was the "bad" Mississippi State job?

You can complain about the Wojo era, it's a bust, but if you think hiring Howland was some missed opportunity, I have to question if you pay attention to college basketball

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hang the banner.  Stone cold lock as a 11 seed, last 5 in, prior to the conference tourneys.  Stone cold lock.

We were a 9 seed prior to the conference tourneys. Conference tourneys don't move teams more than a seed line in either direction, Brew did an excellent article on it recently.

Definition of fact:

1a: something that has actual existence
         space exploration is now a fact
b: an actual occurrence
         prove the fact of damage
2: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
         These are the hard facts of the case.
3: the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY
         a question of fact hinges on evidence
4: a thing done


I'm sorry...which definition of "FACT" are you using in your statement?   

Considering the NCAA Tournament didn't happen -or even get to selection - I am interested in how this is a type of "fact" that escaped Merriam-Webster.

You missed the fact that we played the entire regular season, the criteria which decides whether or not you make the NCAAT, and had played well enough that over 100 bracketologists universally agreed that our resume was strong enough to earn us a bid.  You can also use common sense and realize that we had done enough to earn a bid.

We were going to get a NCAAT bid last season. There is plenty of evidence to support that and none to dispute it. I get it, I want him fired too but there is plenty to bag on Wojo for, you don't need to pretend that we weren't going to get a bid next season.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

But i highlight that you did not take me up on my bet.

Are you talking about this?

In terms of post season, I will take any bet that you want to make regarding post-season success over whatever time period you want to cover.

I already won the bet. Wojo has had more postseason success than Howland over the time period that they were both head coaches at the same time. If you are talking future success, no interest. I want Wojo fired. But also don't want Howland hired to replace him. This conversation started because I said "Howland has done nothing to prove that he would have done any better" which is true. Maybe he would have done better. Maybe he would have done worse. But nothing about what he has done at MSST leads me to believe that he would have been an improvement.

[Goose]

Zero interest on chasing after Howland from this alum.

[f/k/a humanlung]

Are you talking about this?

I already won the bet. Wojo has had more postseason success than Howland over the time period that they were both head coaches at the same time. If you are talking future success, no interest. I want Wojo fired. But also don't want Howland hired to replace him. This conversation started because I said "Howland has done nothing to prove that he would have done any better" which is true. Maybe he would have done better. Maybe he would have done worse. But nothing about what he has done at MSST leads me to believe that he would have been an improvement.

NEXT five years.  Post season:  Wojo vs. Howland.

You name the amount.  I'll take Howland.

[Uncle Rico]

NEXT five years.  Post season:  Wojo vs. Howland.

You name the amount.  I'll take Howland.

So if Marquette had performed at the same level as Mississippi St under Howland, you'd be satisfied? 

[f/k/a humanlung]

If you're arguing Howland's record is better at MSU than Wojo at MUBB, then you're not serious about having "higher expectations"

And for the people that don't understand the economics of major college athletics and dismiss the notion Mississippi State doesn't spend on basketball, take a look at their operating budget and how much more they can afford on a program they don't care about.  SEC money versus Big East money is staggering.

Mississippi State has as many Final 4's as Marquette since the tournament expanded to 64.  Rick Stansbury took them to as many NCAA tournaments as Tom Crean took Marquette in the same time frame. 

As for Ben Howland, ask yourself how a coach who went to 3 straight Final 4's wandered around looking for a job and the best he could do was the "bad" Mississippi State job?

You can complain about the Wojo era, it's a bust, but if you think hiring Howland was some missed opportunity, I have to question if you pay attention to college basketball

I am saying the W/L records are even.  Considering the starting points of Wojo and Howland, Howland had more work to do to get there.

That is what I am saying.

I respectfully disagree on Howland being a missed opportunity.  He had some well-known baggage that kept him out of work for a few years - and I already stated my opinion on that - but you cannot dispute his track record of success.  If you feel this means I don't "pay attention to college basketball".  Quite the opposite is true and has been since mid-70s.

[f/k/a humanlung]

So if Marquette had performed at the same level as Mississippi St under Howland, you'd be satisfied?

Rico,

My bet is on postseason success.  No postseason, no win the bet.

[4everwarriors]

Zero interest on chasing after Howland from this alum.

We should be able to do better than this has been, hey?

[f/k/a humanlung]

We should be able to do better than this has been, hey?

Warrior, I am not advocating for going after Howland (and I would like to think you are right above).  I am saying that he would have been a better choice seven years ago.  I also think that if we want to compare Wojo to Howland in the future, I will happily bet a certain poster on who will have better post-season success.

[CountryRoads]

Would Wojo have been fired already if they were going to make a move? It's complete incompetence if they don't do it until a few weeks from now since transfers have already started hitting the market and recruits are backing out of their commitments. The search should have started yesterday at 4:05 CST.

[panda]

Would Wojo have been fired already if they were going to make a move? It's complete incompetence if they don't do it until a few weeks from now since transfers have already started hitting the market and recruits are backing out of their commitments. The search should have started yesterday at 4:05 CST.

I'm crossing my fingers for the classic Friday afternoon news dump. I'm not expecting, but hoping for it to happen.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

NEXT five years.  Post season:  Wojo vs. Howland.

You name the amount.  I'll take Howland.

I already answered this. I want Wojo fired. Why would I bet on him to have any postseason success.

This conversation was about whether or not we should have hired Howland in 2014, and the answer is no.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Would Wojo have been fired already if they were going to make a move? It's complete incompetence if they don't do it until a few weeks from now since transfers have already started hitting the market and recruits are backing out of their commitments. The search should have started yesterday at 4:05 CST.

Not necessarily. Wojo's buyout likely drops when this season is over. I don't know how Wojo's contract defines the end of a season. If it means saving a few million, waiting a few days makes sense.

That being said, I have heard nothing that makes me believe that a move is coming. The narrative we've been told for months is that COVID will save Wojo's job. I've heard nothing to counteract that.

[jesmu84]

I am saying the W/L records are even.  Considering the starting points of Wojo and Howland, Howland had more work to do to get there.

That is what I am saying.

I respectfully disagree on Howland being a missed opportunity.  He had some well-known baggage that kept him out of work for a few years - and I already stated my opinion on that - but you cannot dispute his track record of success.  If you feel this means I don't "pay attention to college basketball".  Quite the opposite is true and has been since mid-70s.

What were their rosters like when they started? That seems a pretty important variable in comparing the 2 starting points

[Goose]

TAMU

I hope you keep us updated if you hear otherwise. You were a great resource prior to Wojo being hired and I hope we count on you again. Also, happy to see you feel he should be canned. While I have bitched about him for 3-4 years I had hoped he would prove me wrong. I do not think he will be let go, but he should be.

[Pakuni]

Warrior, I am not advocating for going after Howland (and I would like to think you are right above).  I am saying that he would have been a better choice seven years ago.  I also think that if we want to compare Wojo to Howland in the future, I will happily bet a certain poster on who will have better post-season success.

With the way things ended at UCLA for Howland, he was never a serious option at MU.

[Dr. Blackheart]

With the way things ended at UCLA for Howland, he was never a serious option at MU.

Yeah, you don't replace a coach with off the court problems with one who had off the court problems.

[f/k/a humanlung]

What were their rosters like when they started? That seems a pretty important variable in comparing the 2 starting points

I am also putting some weight on the "we've been to the Big Dance in five of the last six years, with three Sweet 16s or better" carrying more weight than "we went to the Big Dance six years ago and the NIT twice since then", on the recruiting trail.

[brewcity77]

I think someone asked who the best hire was that year. It's pretty obvious if you go back and look at the list...


• 1. Kelvin Sampson, Houston: After a rough start, Sampson had consistent improvement, improving over their projected kenpom ranking every year except the first, with an average improvement of 33.8 spots in the past 6 seasons. They are now a perennial top-20 team and trending toward a 2/3 seed this year. I know...Marquette wasn't going to hire someone with that baggage, but considering what Houston got out of a guy with baggage, maybe we shouldn't rule people out on the basis of past misdeeds if we want to win.
  
• 2. Craig Smith, South Dakota: Hiring a Nebraska assistant wouldn't have excited many, but in 4 years at USD he averaged an 82.5 spot improvement in kenpom and he took them from a perennial sub-200 team to the top-100 before moving on to Utah State.
  
• 3. Bruce Pearl, Auburn: We were never going to hire Pearl either, but Auburn had been sub-100 in 8/10 seasons before Pearl arrived. He took them to the Final Four and consistent top-35 rankings before this season.
  
• 4. Chris Jans, Bowling Green: He wasn't on our radar and had obvious issues at Bowling Green, but his results at New Mexico State have been incredible. With his JUCO background, was probably exactly what Marquette was trying to get away from, but considering his issues came after this hiring cycle, might've worked out.
  
• 5. Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech: Well...he probably was never coming back.

Anyone like other names better? Honestly, considering what Marquette was looking for, the crop wasn't great. Cuonzo would've been okay, but I don't think he would still be here. He wasn't running to something, he was running from something.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/hirings-and-firings-2014-college-basketball-coaching-changes/

[The Sultan]

I think someone asked who the best hire was that year. It's pretty obvious if you go back and look at the list...


• 1. Kelvin Sampson, Houston: After a rough start, Sampson had consistent improvement, improving over their projected kenpom ranking every year except the first, with an average improvement of 33.8 spots in the past 6 seasons. They are now a perennial top-20 team and trending toward a 2/3 seed this year. I know...Marquette wasn't going to hire someone with that baggage, but considering what Houston got out of a guy with baggage, maybe we shouldn't rule people out on the basis of past misdeeds if we want to win.
  
• 2. Craig Smith, South Dakota: Hiring a Nebraska assistant wouldn't have excited many, but in 4 years at USD he averaged an 82.5 spot improvement in kenpom and he took them from a perennial sub-200 team to the top-100 before moving on to Utah State.
  
• 3. Bruce Pearl, Auburn: We were never going to hire Pearl either, but Auburn had been sub-100 in 8/10 seasons before Pearl arrived. He took them to the Final Four and consistent top-35 rankings before this season.
  
• 4. Chris Jans, Bowling Green: He wasn't on our radar and had obvious issues at Bowling Green, but his results at New Mexico State have been incredible. With his JUCO background, was probably exactly what Marquette was trying to get away from, but considering his issues came after this hiring cycle, might've worked out.
  
• 5. Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech: Well...he probably was never coming back.

Anyone like other names better? Honestly, considering what Marquette was looking for, the crop wasn't great. Cuonzo would've been okay, but I don't think he would still be here. He wasn't running to something, he was running from something.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/hirings-and-firings-2014-college-basketball-coaching-changes/

None of those five would have been on Marquette's radar. And Jans was fired at BGSU for lewd and drunk behavior.