Does Wojo get canned?

[Dr. Blackheart]

I don't even think it made a lot of sense at the time.  The reasoning for it was he could partake in MU's conditioning program right away and they would help him with his rehab, but I'm sure he could've found (or MU could've helped him find) a first rate physical therapist in the Point area who could help him along until he came to MU in June.

My tinfoil hat conspiracy theory reason for why they convinced him to come early is to burn his redshirt year, so that after Sam graduated he'd have to think pretty damn hard about transferring because he'd lose a season of eligibility if he did so.  From what's come out since Hausergate, we know how close he came to choosing MSU, and it's been said that the only reason he chose Marquette is because Sam convinced him to come here.  Wojo and co. likely knew this, and acted accordingly.

Again, totally just a conspiracy theory of mine, but as Dostoevsky said at the beginning of the Brothers K, "Since it is written, let it stand."

Another reason is he had surgery in MKE by the Bucks doctor on MU's dime...and he had had dreams of one and done (with his brother) like Henry.

[panda]

Another reason is he had surgery in MKE by the Bucks doctor on MU's dime...and he had had dreams of one and done (with his brother) like Henry.

He had surgery in Green Bay.

[MUDPT]

He had surgery in Green Bay.

The Packers' MD, who is a foot/ ankle specialist, correct? I did find it funny at the time that MU assumed that there were no good rehab providers in Point.

[tower912]

And Wojo was in the room when he woke up.   He came down to Milwaukee to rehab...and the first team all American went home to Arizona for the summer.

[Dr. Blackheart]

He had surgery in Green Bay.

That's right. Thanks

[The Sultan]

The Packers' MD, who is a foot/ ankle specialist, correct? I did find it funny at the time that MU assumed that there were no good rehab providers in Point.

MU never assumed that.

This idea that getting Joey here was some tinfoil hat way to burn his redshirt or whatever is nonsense.  It was a way to get him here early, involved with the program, and a start on his classes. This is routinely done with football players and was only able in this case due to injury.

[MU82]

MU never assumed that.

This idea that getting Joey here was some tinfoil hat way to burn his redshirt or whatever is nonsense.  It was a way to get him here early, involved with the program, and a start on his classes. This is routinely done with football players and was only able in this case due to injury.

Yep. Hundreds of football players do this every season. Basketball players can't ... unless they are injured.

[f/k/a humanlung]

Jeesh ... more red flags than a rainy day at a Nascar event.

Was Buzz going 14-17 at New Orleans a "red flag"? Was Al going 13-39 his last two seasons at Belmont Abbey followed by 8-18 and 14-12 his first two seasons at MU a "red flag"? Was Jay Wright failing to make the NCAA tournament in his first three years at Nova (with an 11th-place finish in Year 3) a "red flag"? A coach having a losing record in his first year or two at a new program is EXTREMELY common. So that was just silly.

I mean, was Wojo improving to 20 wins his second season and then taking us to the NCAAs in what was a pretty fun third season a "green flag" that all was well?

Hausershima, when coupled with the mutiny-fueled collapse, was not good at the time, and very bad in retrospect (even though it didn't hurt our recruiting at all, as I worried it would).

The other stuff is just a series of troublesome facts, not really red flags. And the facts suggest he is not a good enough coach for our alma mater.

I have my doubts that the powers-that-be will agree with us enough to eat his buyout, however.

Just got of curiosity, what would constitute a "red flag" in your opinion is none of the things listed got that level?

[MUDPT]

MU never assumed that.

This idea that getting Joey here was some tinfoil hat way to burn his redshirt or whatever is nonsense.  It was a way to get him here early, involved with the program, and a start on his classes. This is routinely done with football players and was only able in this case due to injury.

Oh I agree. Sorry, it was people on scoop that were saying that.

[brewcity77]

Do you know this for sure? I mean the bros considered WI as a package after they announced the transfer

That was reported, but from what I heard it was never close to true. They put them on their list but I heard very early that Wisconsin wasn't actually a consideration.

[panda]

That was reported, but from what I heard it was never close to true. They put them on their list but I heard very early that Wisconsin wasn't actually a consideration.

Dodds claimed it was a done deal. That's all you need to know if you think they ever considered UW.

[MU82]

Just got of curiosity, what would constitute a "red flag" in your opinion is none of the things listed got that level?

I think maybe you and I simply define "red flag" differently. I define "red flag" as a signal of danger, a truly ominous sign. And no, I don't think Wojo going 13-19 his first year was a "red flag." Does anybody need to list the very good to great coaches who had bad records their first year at their first big coaching job? The list would be so darn long your eyes would cross leading it.

As I said in my (perhaps too sarcastic) response, would you say the team's solid 2016-17 season, Wojo's third at MU, was a "green flag"? Him losing his first NCAA tournament game to end that season was not a "red flag." Again, the list of coaches who had that same result would include numerous Hall of Famers. The program was progressing. We made the tourney, and we had two freshmen who looked like they could be stars. IMHO it wasn't a "red flag" of anything that they lost that tourney game to a home team that went on to reach the Final Four.

If we're looking for a "red flag" to agree on, it was Hausershima. It concerned me greatly at the time but I thought that its biggest impact would be on recruiting. When Wojo went out and landed Garcia, Lewis, Oso and DJ despite Hausershima, I probably dismissed the negatives too quickly. But yes, it was a major "red flag."

By the time we got to last year's collapse, it wasn't really a red flag in my eyes because a majority of Scoopers already were convinced he wasn't good enough. The doom already had been expected. And this season's losing record? Heck, just about all of us are convinced he's the wrong guy for the job.

Just my take. Others are allowed to disagree.

[MUfan12]

That was reported, but from what I heard it was never close to true. They put them on their list but I heard very early that Wisconsin wasn't actually a consideration.

UW was very much in the mix, up until a couple days before the announcement. And the fact they got blueballed again was hilarious.

[MU82]

UW was very much in the mix, up until a couple days before the announcement. And the fact they got blueballed again was hilarious.

A Scooper who claims to know a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff PMed me on 4 separate occasions in the spring of 2019 to tell me the Hausers were going to Madison. Oops.

Like just about every other Scooper, I was very disappointed when they decided to leave our alma mater. But when they stiffed Madison for a second time - and with everybody, including every Madison fan, having expected them to go there - I have to admit that I laughed my arse off.

[WarriorPride68]

UW was very much in the mix, up until a couple days before the announcement. And the fact they got blueballed again was hilarious.

and those bastards still won the big ten title last year. they would have been insane this year. I am just glad we got them this year. even though it might help keep Woj around

[GoldenWarrior11]

I think maybe you and I simply define "red flag" differently. I define "red flag" as a signal of danger, a truly ominous sign. And no, I don't think Wojo going 13-19 his first year was a "red flag." Does anybody need to list the very good to great coaches who had bad records their first year at their first big coaching job? The list would be so darn long your eyes would cross leading it.

As I said in my (perhaps too sarcastic) response, would you say the team's solid 2016-17 season, Wojo's third at MU, was a "green flag"? Him losing his first NCAA tournament game to end that season was not a "red flag." Again, the list of coaches who had that same result would include numerous Hall of Famers. The program was progressing. We made the tourney, and we had two freshmen who looked like they could be stars. IMHO it wasn't a "red flag" of anything that they lost that tourney game to a home team that went on to reach the Final Four.

If we're looking for a "red flag" to agree on, it was Hausershima. It concerned me greatly at the time but I thought that its biggest impact would be on recruiting. When Wojo went out and landed Garcia, Lewis, Oso and DJ despite Hausershima, I probably dismissed the negatives too quickly. But yes, it was a major "red flag."

By the time we got to last year's collapse, it wasn't really a red flag in my eyes because a majority of Scoopers already were convinced he wasn't good enough. The doom already had been expected. And this season's losing record? Heck, just about all of us are convinced he's the wrong guy for the job.

Just my take. Others are allowed to disagree.

Good points.  Hausergate was at the time, and even more so now, a red flag.  It signaled a tremendous breakdown within the program, regardless of who was at fault, and revealed that the leadership and direction was in question.

Personally, and I believe the original response was to mine, I view multiple red flags of the Wojo-era in retrospect.

His first year, to me, should now be considered 100% a red flag with a 13-19 record, a 4-14 conference record and losing seven of the last nine games.  Firstly, our narrative was that Wojo was walking into nothing because Buzz took everything and the kitchen sink.  Well, Wojo had not one but two future NBA players on his first roster (more than most of the Big East at that time).  One left due to transfer (Burton).  In addition, the team benefited from a high-ceiling collection of young talent in Wilson and Johnson, and had a complimentary and productive grad transfer in Carlino.  Should it have been a tournament team?  Probably not.  But there was no reason for the team or program to nearly lose 20 games.  This was a future sign of Wojo teams falling apart near the end of the season, as well as an inability to get players to play together to their strengths.  It also showed that Wojo might not have been ready to be a head coach at this time.  Couple these observations with Virginia Tech at present (where Buzz also left, took all of the recruits and had a majority of returning minutes leave), where their head coach still finished .500 in year one, and is a tournament team in year two (VT is not a basketball-first program, nor does it have the same resources as an MU).  Many sustainable winning programs and coaches do not need to rebuild over 4-5 years; they reload and do it in 1-2 seasons.

As previously mentioned, the continued examples of Wojo-led teams falling apart at the end of seasons is, to me, a red flag.  Lost 7 of final 9 in 14-15, losing 6 of final 10 games in 15-16, losing 7 of final 12 games in 16-17, losing 6 of final 7 games in 18-19 and losing 6 of final 7 games in 19-20 is a glaring and noticeable concern.  Wojo's teams, for whatever reason, fall apart and break down as the seasons near conclusion.  Successful teams and programs get better as the season advances (we have not). 

As to "green-lights" for Wojo making the tournament twice in the first five seasons, these are the standards and expectations of MU Basketball: making the tournament.  Our fans, alumni, students and school should not be celebrating simply meeting expectations because that lowers the bar and diminishes the past accomplishments and successes of players and coaches before us.  In the only two NCAA appearances, MU Basketball, under Wojo, has lost by a combined 39 points.  Again, MUBB in both NCAAT appearances under Wojo has lost by a combined 39 points.  "Green-lights" would be akin to when Buzz took a 15-loss team to the Sweet 16, or BET Championship appearance, or a deep tournament run.  Wojo has made two appearances in the top-25 with a program that is top-15 annually in basketball expenditures; this is a red flag, to me. 

The final red flag, again to me, is the (now) strong possibility of two losing seasons in his tenure, when it was over 25 years since that happened before.  Under Crean and Buzz, the program was efficient, competitive and sustained success.  Players came and go - but the winning continued.  Under Wojo, we remain inconsistent.  After this year, we will have four losing seasons in the Big East play, one .500 season and just two winning seasons.  No sustainable competitive program can be as up and down as we have been and we continue to be.  Losing to DePaul as much as we have under Wojo is part of this red flag.  Winning programs don't consistently lose to the bottom, and Wojo has lost more to the bottom (DePaul) in seven years than both of his predecessors combined (nearly fifteen years). 

Again, these are just my opinions - and it is semantics in regards to what is considered a red flag.  With where we are at today, I think many past instances were actually examples of the long-term concerns of where our program is at present.  We have been building towards this, and it was several seasons in the making.  The examples were there to be seen.  Time will tell if the school recognizes it as well. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Preseason in Year 1 KenPom projected Marquette as the 87th best team in the country (before Burton and Dawson transferred). They finished 93rd (despite Burton and Dawson transferring). Year 1 was not a red flag. Year 2 was much closer to a red flag than year 1 was.

The collapsing at the end of the season mantra has been a problem the last two seasons. They didn't collapse in year 1, they were always bad. They didn't collapse in year 2, they won 4 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11 BE games) and all 3 losses were to top 40 teams. They didn't collapse in year 3, they won 4 of their last 5 to go from the wrong side of the bubble to the right side of it. They didn't collapse in year 4, they won 5 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11). Years 5 and 6 were absolute collapses.

[Galway Eagle]

Preseason in Year 1 KenPom projected Marquette as the 87th best team in the country (before Burton and Dawson transferred). They finished 93rd (despite Burton and Dawson transferring). Year 1 was not a red flag. Year 2 was much closer to a red flag than year 1 was.

The collapsing at the end of the season mantra has been a problem the last two seasons. They didn't collapse in year 1, they were always bad. They didn't collapse in year 2, they won 4 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11 BE games) and all 3 losses were to top 40 teams. They didn't collapse in year 3, they won 4 of their last 5 to go from the wrong side of the bubble to the right side of it. They didn't collapse in year 4, they won 5 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11). Years 5 and 6 were absolute collapses.

Yeah but in yea 4 one of those 2 they lost was likely what knocked them out of the tournament. Gotta look at who the losses were to.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yeah but in yea 4 one of those 2 they lost was likely what knocked them out of the tournament. Gotta look at who the losses were to.

I don't think a bad loss and collapse are the same thing.

[Silent Verbal]

Preseason in Year 1 KenPom projected Marquette as the 87th best team in the country (before Burton and Dawson transferred). They finished 93rd (despite Burton and Dawson transferring). Year 1 was not a red flag. Year 2 was much closer to a red flag than year 1 was.

The collapsing at the end of the season mantra has been a problem the last two seasons. They didn't collapse in year 1, they were always bad. They didn't collapse in year 2, they won 4 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11 BE games) and all 3 losses were to top 40 teams. They didn't collapse in year 3, they won 4 of their last 5 to go from the wrong side of the bubble to the right side of it. They didn't collapse in year 4, they won 5 of their last 7 (after winning 4 of their first 11). Years 5 and 6 were absolute collapses.

In year 3, three of those four wins were against an Xavier team without Edmund Sumner (and maybe even the second one without Trevon Blueitt) and a Creighton team without Mo Watson.  Those were two of the best players in the conference, and had they stayed healthy Marquette may well have lost all three of those games and stayed on the wrong side of the bubble.

I realize that was out of Wojo's control, but we got lucky.

[Billy Hoyle]

Yep. Hundreds of football players do this every season. Basketball players can't ... unless they are injured.

The fact he was injured and unable to play would have resulted in him getting that year back if he wanted it.

[Galway Eagle]

In year 3, three of those four wins were against an Xavier team without Edmund Sumner (and maybe even the second one without Trevon Blueitt) and a Creighton team without Mo Watson.  Those were two of the best players in the conference, and had they stayed healthy Marquette may well have lost all three of those games and stayed on the wrong side of the bubble.

I realize that was out of Wojo's control, but we got lucky.

I'm sure all the teams Xavier beat on their way to the Elite 8 that year are sitting there saying "lucky we played them without Edmond Sumner"

[MU82]

GW11:

Buzz went 11-22 in his first year at Virginia Tech. Was that some kind of "red flag"? Or was it simply the kind of thing that usually happens when a coach takes over a program?

With Wojo, I don't think a first-time head coach having a losing record after taking over a talent-shy program that had missed the postseason the year before is a "red flag" of anything. I mean, the following year he won 20 games and the year after that he put together a fun, NCAA-tourney team with two future stars and lots of good role players.

I also disagree that anything that happened in seasons 2, 3, 4 and most of 5 - up until 2/26/19 -
constituted anything close to a "red flag." The program clearly was in an upward trend during most of that time.

And to me, calling anything that happened since Hausershima a "red flag" is unnecessary. Hausershima -- with its mutiny and the letter and the collapse and the transfers and the embarrassment -- was THE red flag of Wojo's coaching tenure. Stuff that happened since then merely proved that Hausershima was a red flag. At least that's how I look at it.

Agree that it's not worth going on any further about this. I think we both agree that Wojo's gotta go.

And if you and I say so, it must be true!

[cheebs09]

Is it weird I think his first year was his best coaching job? Maybe just because it was in the honeymoon phase. But he showed some creativeness with the zone defenses and maneuvering all the changes in personnel. It seemed like when he had nothing to lose, he let himself be more creative and had some (albeit limited) success.

He's like a pitcher with a good fastball and mediocre change up (Fluffy might have used a similar analogy). Even if guys start teeing off on the fastball, he keeps throwing it. He'd rather go down with his best stuff rather than risk going to the change up and second guessing.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

In year 3, three of those four wins were against an Xavier team without Edmund Sumner (and maybe even the second one without Trevon Blueitt) and a Creighton team without Mo Watson.  Those were two of the best players in the conference, and had they stayed healthy Marquette may well have lost all three of those games and stayed on the wrong side of the bubble.

I realize that was out of Wojo's control, but we got lucky.

And if we had lost to those teams, that would be great evidence for the "Wojo has always collapsed down the stretch" narrative. If you read what I wrote, I wasn't saying that those were quality wins or Wojo deserves praise, I was pointing out that the team didn't collapse in years 1-4.