WOJO HAS TO GOJO

[Eldon]

i forgot about Matta. He had success at Ohio State. Not sure why he left...burn-out, maybe? I agree that getting a nba guy to drop down to college and chase HS kids in Hicktown ain’t happening.  Hitting a home run on a college coach seems more difficult than on initial glance. Greg Gard has a top 5 team? Dang. Wojo of Duke pedigree can’t garner a ‘also receiving votes’ vote? Annual flameouts? I have no idea where MU turns...if MU even cares. All I know is getting the bend-over rubber glove tonight won’t be fun.

He had some health/back problems, which, IIRC, translated into a lack of vigor on the recruiting trail.

[shoothoops]

The parameters are clear. You choose to ignore them because your argument holds no merit by staying within them.

What's clear is that in one particular season, you value pre-season predictions more than the actual results of that season. You say MU was well positioned because some predicted MU to do well that season.  Obviously based on actual results of that season, MU was not positioned as well as 5 other teams in the league. I value results more than predictions, yes.

[GoldenWarrior11]

I would suggest that only one of these worked out well in retrospect - Belein hired at Michigan.

The rest either flopped (UCLA, Stanford, Georgetown) or are too early to tell (the rest)

Beilein was a grand slam.  Musselman appears to be a strong hire.  Archie and Haase not so much.  Hardaway and Ewing are both the same types of hires (former NBA players, alums, with no college coaching experience).  UCLA is unique because Alford went to three Sweet 16s, but two .500 seasons and was fired.  Cronin is a toss-up (although I struggle to see him doing better than Alford). 

The point I would make is that the risk of making no move at all (complacency) is far greater than the risk of making the wrong move (taking chances to succeed).  If a school is in year seven of a coaching tenure, then it knows the trajectory, the floor and the ceiling.  With the program and school's resources, conference affiliation and history, it should not be settling for the inconsistency and lack of postseason success (or appearances).   

[Silent Verbal]

i forgot about Matta. He had success at Ohio State. Not sure why he left...burn-out, maybe? I agree that getting a nba guy to drop down to college and chase HS kids in Hicktown ain’t happening.  Hitting a home run on a college coach seems more difficult than on initial glance. Greg Gard has a top 5 team? Dang. Wojo of Duke pedigree can’t garner a ‘also receiving votes’ vote? Annual flameouts? I have no idea where MU turns...if MU even cares. All I know is getting the bend-over rubber glove tonight won’t be fun.

Greg Gard can thank Bo Ryan for having the head job at UW.  There is zero chance Barry Alvarez would've hired him if Ryan hadn't stepped down mid-season, which is probably why Ryan did it.  It was the one nice thing Bo ever did.  Alvarez and Ryan didn't like each other, and I think Barry probably resents Gard's success.  He can't fire him now.

[GoldenWarrior11]

He had some health/back problems, which, IIRC, translated into a lack of vigor on the recruiting trail.

Rumor was Wichita State reached out to Matta after firing Marshall.  He was not interested.  I think he also turned down Georgia before Crean got the call.  I think he stays retired unless a big school comes calling and allows him to fill out his bench with top recruiters to do the rest. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle.  What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.

But this still feels...precarious.  His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly.  But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.

[muhoops1]

I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar).  I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring.  Am I wrong?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar).  I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring.  Am I wrong?

I wouldn't go near him.  Neither will MU.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Beilein was a grand slam.  Musselman appears to be a strong hire.  Archie and Haase not so much.  Hardaway and Ewing are both the same types of hires (former NBA players, alums, with no college coaching experience).  UCLA is unique because Alford went to three Sweet 16s, but two .500 seasons and was fired.  Cronin is a toss-up (although I struggle to see him doing better than Alford). 

The point I would make is that the risk of making no move at all (complacency) is far greater than the risk of making the wrong move (taking chances to succeed).  If a school is in year seven of a coaching tenure, then it knows the trajectory, the floor and the ceiling.  With the program and school's resources, conference affiliation and history, it should not be settling for the inconsistency and lack of postseason success (or appearances).   

Oh I agree.  Even the disasters above weren't unmitigated disasters.

[BCHoopster]

I always liked watching WSU play and therefore always admired Marshall (albeit from afar).  I've heard he's kind of a dick and not worth hiring.  Am I wrong?

The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman.  Start fresh.  Doing great things in the youth market here.

[shoothoops]

Cant admit you were wrong that I acknowledged his prior success?

Should Georgetown have fired JT3? He had a final four sweet 16, 3 BE Championships, a big East tournament championship, a couple years removed from a second place finish.

You said you acknowledged something and then decided to dismiss it entirely.

JT III is apples to oranges.

His firing, warranted or not, can be debated separately. He had losing conference seasons 3 out of his final four seasons there, without NCAA appearances those years, and two were overall losing records. The Jay Wright discussion included 3 seasons, two of which were NCAA seasons. JT III also already had a previous 3 year stretch of 8,7,11th place league finishes, missing NCAA's and not winning an NCAA game in that stretch etc...He had one Final Four and one Sweet 16. He had several very good seasons, has worked a lot with USA basketball, and he was a finalist for the Vandy coaching position a few years back.

[cheebs09]

The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman.  Start fresh.  Doing great things in the youth market here.

That would be fun for the novelty and he’s done nice things with the youth program, but I wouldn’t want him as our next coach. At least Penny had five star players in his program and the NBA name recognition.

I think TJO would be my number one hope. I’m warming up to Wardle as he continues to have success. Like Fluffy, these last few years have made me value winning over style of play.

[Silent Verbal]

The only name I would like to see coaching would be Joe Chapman.  Start fresh.  Doing great things in the youth market here.

To quote Ignatius J. Reilly, “Oh, my God.”

[brewcity77]

What's clear is that in one particular season, you value pre-season predictions more than the actual results of that season. You say MU was well positioned because some predicted MU to do well that season.  Obviously based on actual results of that season, MU was not positioned as well as 5 other teams in the league. I value results more than predictions, yes.

Because at the time we were talking about, that information was not available. FFS this is not a difficult concept. This is a thought exercise based on what was KNOWN at the time the league was refounded. If you can't engage the debate on those grounds, then your intellectual dishonesty is a waste of time.

[Galway Eagle]

You said you acknowledged something and then decided to dismiss it entirely.

Jesus man how can you not get this. What did I dismiss? That Jay had success? I said he had success. College basketball is cyclical, success doesn't guarantee you a lifelong gig if you can't continue.

Here's the easiest way to write this for you

1. 2010- Jay had come off great NCAA  success and had regular season success.

2. 2011 to 13- Jay embarrassingly flopped in 2010, followed it with a 9 seed, missing the NCAA, and another 9 seed.

3. As of October 2013, Nova fans were frustrated by the past three years and there was a contingent that wanted Jay gone. 

---------- (this line represents where Brew and I are saying Nova fans wanted Jay gone bringing up anything after doesn't matter because it hasn't happened yet)

4. Nov 2013-April 2014 The new league started then and Jay immediately proved them wrong.

5. Marquette fell on its face despite lofty expectations.

You cannot say that Nova fans didn't want Jay gone in October 2013 because of 2014's results, as it hadn't happened yet. You can say those fans were proven wrong sure and they were.

You can say some fans didn't want Jay gone because he had all of that early success. Then Brew and I can say similarly that some fans did want Jay gone due to the last three years + ncaa flop.

The reason I bring up JT3 is to show you, eventually early success doesn't matter for the present. That happened from April to October 2013 when some Nova fans were calling for Jay's head or at least considering him on the hot seat. Those fans were wrong.

https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/3/3/4060200/enough-groundhog-day-fire-jay-wright

[shoothoops]

Because at the time we were talking about, that information was not available. FFS this is not a difficult concept. This is a thought exercise based on what was KNOWN at the time the league was refounded. If you can't engage the debate on those grounds, then your intellectual dishonesty is a waste of time.

You have repeatedly mentioned MU's expectations for one particular season. What you don't do is take other seasons as well and go over their expectations vs results, better, same, or worse. It's just that one season.

And then you'll say it is because of the new league. Then I say we just so happen to have results of that season which would conclude perhaps expectations were not correct or accurate. Perhaps MU was not as well positioned as they thought. We can say that because we have the actual results. Since we have the actual results, one can reasonably conclude MU was not better positioned than Villanova.

There is nothing intellectually dishonest about it. Facts are facts. I can't change the facts.

Would you admit, in hindsight, MU was not better positioned than Villanova? You come across as if that is difficult thing for you to admit.

People forecast sports results and make sports predictions all the time every day, every week. I am admittedly not into that. I am more of a prepare your team as best you can, and see what happens, see what the results say.

For example, I had hoped and I had expected MU to be much better in 2013-2014 than the actual results. Was MU positioned well, or great or better than Villanova for example? Well, apparently not. You want to say MU was better positioned and it didn't happen. I say results say who was well positioned, or better positioned.

As you well know, many players, teams, coaches, over perform, under perform etc....I am certainly not being disingenuous. I also don't care much for specific recruiting ranking numbers. Sure there is general value, but I don't get caught up in the specific ranking numbers. I don't care much for sports talk radio or sports talk tv predictions, not my thing.

I get it. MU fans deservedly want to see a coach string together several years of high performance and achievement. It is something that has often seemed to escape MU for a long time.

Obviously you are frustrated with the program, and you are playing a what if game.....MU coming off of two strong seasons, heading into Buzz' last year at MU. What if Vander had stayed? What if MU had a better administration situation? How would the program have been different? We'll never know. Sure I wish MU could have kept it going. Sure I see Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, and Wes Matthews, and I wonder if/when will MU get another good 6'5 2/3 switchable.  I can do those things. But none of that has anything to do with Villanova.

[GoldenWarrior11]

That would be fun for the novelty and he’s done nice things with the youth program, but I wouldn’t want him as our next coach. At least Penny had five star players in his program and the NBA name recognition.

I think TJO would be my number one hope. I’m warming up to Wardle as he continues to have success. Like Fluffy, these last few years have made me value winning over style of play.

TJ is 0-4 this year with an opening loss to Montana State.

[bilsu]

Would Diener have any interest in being head coach?  That's an experiment I would have some newfound patience for.

I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.

[Scoop Snoop]

I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.

Fair point.

In lieu of that choice, Mike Rhoades of VCU.

[Viper]

The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle.  What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.

But this still feels...precarious.  His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly.  But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.

...and at least we know Wardle gives a sh&t😀

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I think in today's black lives matter environment, I would hire Joe Chapman before I hired Diener.

I wouldn't hire either of them, but if I had to choose I would hire Chapman because he has more coaching experience and would be better qualified for the job.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

There have been many firings in recent college basketball memory where coaches have had success but simply did not meet expectations at said school.  Firings are not as simple as having a losing season or having a scandal.  Certain schools simply have higher expectations that the results that were being met. 

Tubby Smith, Memphis -Fired after missing the postseason in final season

Ben Howland, UCLA Blue blood, fired during off court scandal

John Thompson III, Georgetown Fired after missing the postseason in his final year

Tommy Amaker, Michigan Fired after missing the NCAAT in his final year

Johnny Dawkins, Stanford Fired after missing the postseason in his final year

Mike Anderson, Arkansas Fired after missing the NCAAT in his final year

Tom Crean, Indiana Fired after missing the NCAAT in his last season 

I'm not sure how the rest of year goes, and I am confident Wojo is back next year, but there is definitely precedent for top-35 schools making tough coaching changes, without a losing season and/or scandal, that leads to a change.

The thing all of your examples have in common is that the schools waited for them to actually have a bad season on the court or scandal off of it before firing them. No one set the bar for a bad season as "a losing season." The bar for program like Marquette is making the NCAAT. I'd argue Year 2 is the only season that Marquette could have justified firing Wojo and even then most people (even scoopers) would have said that was too quick of a hook. You could argue Year 4 but given the context of Marquette being projected to have its top team under Wojo in Year 5 (which ended up being true), I don't think any other program would have made that call. Years 3, 5, and 6, Wojo was unfireable.

The argument isn't that more successful coaches than Wojo have been fired. The argument is that schools can't justify spending millions on firing a coach when the coach is coming off a good season. If COVID doesn't get in the way, Wojo will be fired the next time he has a bad season (assuming he doesn't have some significant success prior to that bad season).

[BM1090]

The odds on favorite would have to be Wardle.  What he has done at Bradley has been amazing.

But this still feels...precarious.  His temper has gotten him in trouble, and I think we would be winning a lot of games really ugly.  But at this point I should probably just get off my high horse and just be satisfied with Ws, even if they're ugly.

As frustrating as the terrible offense was on Tuesday, I actually enjoyed watching our defense for the first time in years. I'd sign up for winning ugly with no hesitation.

[MU82]

Not in those words

See, and that's where we're at. It's easy to sit here now and say Wojo should have been fired after Hausershima and everything else that happened between Feb. 27, 2019 and April 15, 2019.

But you didn't even come close to saying it then. You basically said Wojo was on the clock. You said you would still hold him to high standards the following season, as if the Hausers hadn't left. And even then, you were willing to allow for extenuating circumstances. You were critical of Wojo, and upset about his program, but you weren't calling for him to go. Indeed, your conclusion to that post -- Then the accountability should result in a firing -- was talking about firing him after the 2019-20 season if he failed again.

For better or worse, your viewpoint actually was quite similar to mine at the time, and TAMU's too. Several others, as well.

You're one of my fave Scoopers, brew, so I'm not trying to play "gotcha" here, just pointing out how different these things are when we look at them in real time as opposed to when we look at them in hindsight.

[GoldenWarrior11]

The thing all of your examples have in common is that the schools waited for them to actually have a bad season on the court or scandal off of it before firing them. No one set the bar for a bad season as "a losing season." The bar for program like Marquette is making the NCAAT. I'd argue Year 2 is the only season that Marquette could have justified firing Wojo and even then most people (even scoopers) would have said that was too quick of a hook. You could argue Year 4 but given the context of Marquette being projected to have its top team under Wojo in Year 5 (which ended up being true), I don't think any other program would have made that call. Years 3, 5, and 6, Wojo was unfireable.

The argument isn't that more successful coaches than Wojo have been fired. The argument is that schools can't justify spending millions on firing a coach when the coach is coming off a good season. If COVID doesn't get in the way, Wojo will be fired the next time he has a bad season (assuming he doesn't have some significant success prior to that bad season).

All the coaches I listed (except Amaker) had postseason success at their respective schools.  Wojo was/is already an outlier in that regard.  Wojo is also unique (to my knowledge) where he finished back-to-back seasons five of six games and six of seven games.  I don't think there are any other present high major coaches (that were ranked in the top-25) to have accomplished that feat. 

The difficulty in finding a comparable to Wojo is that there really aren't many that have similar circumstance (experience, success, level of program).  Regardless of what MU chooses to do, this season, next season, whenever, if it bases its decision to make a change on whether or not the coach is bad enough to warrant being fired, then the program is already headed down a difficult path.  It's either a long-term fit or it isn't.