Pope Francis and same-sex civil unions

[tower912]

It is a small but important step.    It is going to take another century (if we still exist in a century) before religions catch up to that particular aspect of society.   

[tower912]

Going where the people are.  New poll says 70% of Americans support gay marriage

[warriorchick]

Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.

In other words, do as I say, not as I do.

The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.

I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.

Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!

Kind of like women having the wrong plumbing to be priests.

[The Lens]

As a Catholic I always figured the Old Testament as just background information not really instructional.  The important stuff was all in the New Testament.

Bingo

[MU82]

More signs of this pope realizing it's the 21st century ...

ROME — Pope Francis said Sunday he would elevateArchbishop Wilton Gregory of Washington to cardinal next month, making him the first African American to hold the title.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-cardinal-gregory-dc/2020/10/25/5a24cfe4-16b5-11eb-8bda-814ca56e138b_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F2c53831%2F5f959e9d9d2fda0efb53f4f5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F29%2F64%2Fb3563592a6e9cbfdd26e210ad7669201

Gregory, 72, is one of 13 cardinals in the new class announced by Francis on Sunday, a promotion that comes as he is trying to rebuild trust in an archdiocese rocked by sexual abuse cases.

The move was widely anticipated; Washington archbishops are typically elevated to cardinal after their appointments. But it's nonetheless symbolically significant in the U.S. Catholic Church, where Blacks have been underrepresented among the leadership.

[Warriors4ever]

Chicago native. Good guy.  I know people who know him well,  I am sure it's killing them that they can't see him installed.

[dgies9156]

Kind of like women having the wrong plumbing to be priests.

Or as my late Mother used to say, " You mean I can't be a priest because I don't have a prostate gland?"

[Pakuni]

Chicago native. Good guy.  I know people who know him well,  I am sure it's killing them that they can't see him installed.

Bishop Gregory confirmed me.

[Lennys Tap]

Bishop Gregory confirmed me.

He confirmed one of my sons.

[Pakuni]

He confirmed one of my sons.

Dad?

[warriorchick]

Or as my late Mother used to say, " You mean I can't be a priest because I don't have a prostate gland?"

Well, that and she was married.  Another stupid rule.

[shoothoops]

More signs of this pope realizing it's the 21st century ...

ROME — Pope Francis said Sunday he would elevateArchbishop Wilton Gregory of Washington to cardinal next month, making him the first African American to hold the title.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/pope-cardinal-gregory-dc/2020/10/25/5a24cfe4-16b5-11eb-8bda-814ca56e138b_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F2c53831%2F5f959e9d9d2fda0efb53f4f5%2F5f8d147cae7e8a56e5b732a4%2F29%2F64%2Fb3563592a6e9cbfdd26e210ad7669201

Gregory, 72, is one of 13 cardinals in the new class announced by Francis on Sunday, a promotion that comes as he is trying to rebuild trust in an archdiocese rocked by sexual abuse cases.

The move was widely anticipated; Washington archbishops are typically elevated to cardinal after their appointments. But it's nonetheless symbolically significant in the U.S. Catholic Church, where Blacks have been underrepresented among the leadership.

Well earned.

And it would not have happened under past more Conservative Popes. Diversity was not a priority in the past. And, change and nclusivity weren't prioritizes either.

There are only about a half dozen of them. Interestingly enough several came through the St. Louis area, Wilton Gregory, Terry Steib, Ed Braxton. It also happens to be a future Cardinal feeder system as this makes 7 Cardinals that came through that area. More recently, Justin Rigali, Raymond Burke and Tim Dolan, who couldn't have more different views on many topics as Gregory except one, sexual abuse. While Gregory has been a leader in the movement, both have had a no tolerance policy with it, when many others didn't take enough or any action.

[buckchuckler]

Well earned.

And it would not have happened under past more Conservative Popes. Diversity was not a priority in the past. And, change and nclusivity weren't prioritizes either.

Uhhh, what?  This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world.  Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many).  There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America.  And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico.  And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country.  Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines. 
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess. 

[shoothoops]

Uhhh, what?  This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world.  Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many).  There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America.  And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico.  And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country.  Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines. 
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess.

Two things:

1) He's African American. Black Racial Diversity in the United States in the Catholic Church.
2) Diversity of thought in the Catholic Church.


As mentioned African American numbers are few.

Pope Benedict and others are much more Conservative in their Catholic beliefs and thought. There are very different views within the Catholic Church.

[Pakuni]

Uhhh, what?  This makes no sense. The Catholic Church is probably the most diverse group in the world.  Like for instance, there are more Catholics in Sub-Saharan Africa than there are in North America (about twice as many).  There are more Catholics in Asia than in North America.  And most of North America's Catholics are in Mexico.  And there are more Catholics in Brazil than in any other country.  Followed by Mexico, then the Philippines. 
So, yeah, diversity and inclusivity aren't priorities I guess.

It seems to me he was speaking to church leadership, and what he said is true.
There have been Black priests in America since the mid 19th century, and yet there wasn't a Black cardinal until, well, now.
A Black priest wasn't elected to lead the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops until 2002. The first Latino president wasn't chosen until 2019.
For all its growth in Africa, Asia and South America, 61 percent of the College of Cardinals are either from Europe or North America. In fact, while only about 21 percent of Catholics live in Europe, about 46 percent of Cardinals are from Europe.
Heck, even the one and only non-European pope in church history is the son of an Italian immigrant.
And obviously women continue to have no place in church leadership.

So while you're correct that membership is quite diverse, leadership remains predominantly European and exclusively male.

[shoothoops]

It seems to me he was speaking to church leadership, and what he said is true.
There have been Black priests in America since the mid 19th century, and yet there wasn't a Black cardinal until, well, now.
A Black priest wasn't elected to lead the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops until 2002. The first Latino president wasn't chosen until 2019.
For all its growth in Africa, Asia and South America, 61 percent of the College of Cardinals are either from Europe or North America. In fact, while only about 21 percent of Catholics live in Europe, about 46 percent of Cardinals are from Europe.
Heck, even the one and only non-European pope in church history is the son of an Italian immigrant.
And obviously women continue to have no place in church leadership.

So while you're correct that membership is quite diverse, leadership remains predominantly European and exclusively male.

Yes, I was speaking to power within the church both racially and views. And you can also add number of Catholics themselves. Only 4 percent of American Catholics are African American.

[dgies9156]

The common thread in this discussion is that we are a medieval European church. Our governance, our leadership and the way our church functions is based on a governing system that denigrated the common man by assuming he was illiterate and incapable of thinking for himself. Medieval bishops had torture chambers and regularly executed heretics just in case the faithful weren't faithful enough.

And, don't even get into the medieval role of women. Just ask Joan of Arc what happens when you push that envelope too far!

The problem the church has is that it is a human organization that too often tries to assume the role of God. Unlike God, it makes mistakes. And, unlike God, it should have to reverse itself. But the medieval leadership doesn't like to be told it's wrong, whether it be on sexual abuse, financial abuse, women, diversity and inclusion etc. It elevates much of this stuff (Pope John Paul II was especially good at this) to the category of infallible teaching handed down by God after prayerful thought. Don't want women ordained as priests? Simple, God told us this was the way to go! Or, it sweeps it under the rug and hope it goes away.

Unfortunately, there isn't an easy fix. Look at the difficulty Pope Francis has had on gays and lesbians, divorce and cleaning up the Roman Curia. Every time he tries, he ends up with Raymond Burke kicking his backside. The church also has a problem insofar as there are two camps -- Pope Benny's view that we should be an exclusive club of "true believers" and Pope Francis' view of a universal church built on love. The philosophies are incompatible and the result is that millions of Jesus' followers in Europe and, more recently, America are falling away and becoming agnostic, or worse.

It's only going to get worse with Covid-19. In the absence of church attendance, which has been restricted by gubernatorial fiat in places like New York, Illinois, California etc., and discouraged by many bishops concerned about their congregants' health, there is a default tendency to find another means of spiritual fulfillment. It's a little bit like a baseball strike where the owners face the question, "How do I get people back in my seats!"

[shoothoops]

In today's Catholic news:

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/status/1321452307880546304?s=19