Pope Francis and same-sex civil unions

[jesmu84]

Thoughts?

[BrewCity83]

Is the Pope Catholic?

[tower912]

Logical.   I have been making a nearly verbatim argument for 25 years.


And it is consistent with the argument the supreme court made.    Under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, in my opinion, it is an inevitable conclusion.

[MU82]

Love is good.

Hate is bad.

It couldn't be simpler.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It's a very obvious solution.  All the nightmare scenarios around marriage equality have been proven to be exaggerated.

[tower912]

Also recommend Pope Francis' latest encyclical, Fratelli Tutti.     

http://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.pdf

[muwarrior69]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

[Galway Eagle]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

You have a problem with the dogma of papal infallibility then?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

Leviticus outlaws pretty much everything.  I mean, do you wear clothes woven with two types of material? (Lev. 19:19) Do you cut the sides of your head and trim your beard? (Lev. 19:28)    I guess we just pick and chose what Old Testament rules we are going to follow when it is convenient for us.

Anyway, that's not his point.  The Church isn't going to be conducting these ceremonies.  Civil authorities are.  The Church can chose whomever it wants to marry.  He's talking about a civil, equality issue.

[Pakuni]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

Do you wear mixed fibers? Have you ever touched or shared a couch with a woman while she's on her period? Shaved? Planted a garden with more than one kind of vegetable? Sold land?
If you've done any of the above, you violated the word of God.

[buckchuckler]

You have a problem with the dogma of papal infallibility then?

It seems like you don't quite understand the teaching of infallibility.  Everything the pope says does not fall under this category.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

[MU82]

Yeah, Leviticus is some serious shyte.

When folks start quoting Leviticus in an attempt to keep their 1950s (or 50s A.D.) world intact, you know they are desperate AF.

I mean, among those who Leviticus says must get stoned to death in the village square: kids who don't listen to their parents; anybody who says goddam it; anybody who doesn't observe the Sabbath.

And not the good kind of "stoned"!

[Galway Eagle]

It seems like you don't quite understand the teaching of infallibility.  Everything the pope says does not fall under this category.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

Thank you for the lesson. I apparently did not. I will leave it to those that have pointed out a million other instances of picking and choosing scripture

[tower912]

And make sure you get a good price when you sell your daughter.

[muwarrior69]

Leviticus outlaws pretty much everything.  I mean, do you wear clothes woven with two types of material? (Lev. 19:19) Do you cut the sides of your head and trim your beard? (Lev. 19:28)    I guess we just pick and chose what Old Testament rules we are going to follow when it is convenient for us.

Anyway, that's not his point.  The Church isn't going to be conducting these ceremonies.  Civil authorities are.  The Church can chose whomever it wants to marry.  He's talking about a civil, equality issue.

Then we are in agreement.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Then we are in agreement.

I'm genuinely curious 69, what do you think of the rest of the rules in Leviticus? Are they also the word of God and meant to be taken literally?

[MU82]

I'm genuinely curious 69, what do you think of the rest of the rules in Leviticus? Are they also the word of God and meant to be taken literally?

I especially like the one that holds the adulteress, and not hubby, responsible for a guy cheatin’ on his missus.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

As a Catholic I always figured the Old Testament as just background information not really instructional.  The important stuff was all in the New Testament.

[Hards Alumni]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

Alternatively said:

"I think gay people are icky, and here is a bible verse that has been translated and interpreted multiple times before reaching English.  Also, I am a hypocrite."

[shoothoops]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If the Pope is saying the word of God is not true then I have a problem with the Pope; he should know better. If the Pope is saying we should love one another even if one does the abominable I don't have a problem with that.

First, good for Pope Francis. It’s never too late learn and evolve. (Long way to go too)

Fun with scripture. I’ll play:

Leviticus 25:44-46

“Slaves may be kept as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property.”

Expert analysis: Slavery is bad and maybe encouraging it isn’t a good idea.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Ancient scripture says that a disobedient child can be taken by his parents to the city gate and stoned to death.

Expert analysis: Stoning kids to death might not be a great idea.

But let’s get back to LGBTQ people for a minute. There’s this thing called The New Testament that amends the Old and all that came long before.

Acts 13:39

“By this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.”

II Corinthians 3:6

“a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.”

There are 800,000 words in the bible. One can find a verse somewhere to support just about any agenda.

Maybe try this one:

John 15:12

“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.”

[Warriors4ever]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc

President Bartlet made the Bible verse point masterfully.

[tower912]

I like the bible verse in my signature.

[dgies9156]

Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.

In other words, do as I say, not as I do.

The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.

I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.

Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Well said Dgies!

[MU82]

Pope Francis is dancing a very fine line on this one. He's saying it's OK for civil authorities to recognize gay unions but he stubbornly holds to tired and worn out Roman Catholic doctrine that spiritual and sacramental unions -- otherwise known as marriage -- can only be recognized when the participants have complementary rather than parallel plumbing. Such civil unions advocated by the Pope promote what the Catholic Church believes to be a state of serious -- or mortal -- sin.

In other words, do as I say, not as I do.

The Pope spends a great deal of time telling us that God made us all in his image and likeness. He reiterates that God does not make "junk" and yet he hangs on to the notion that gay and lesbian people are somehow inferior and not worthy of the oneness that comes from Sacramental Marriage. It's the same absurd concept that deprives millions and millions of followers of Jesus from full participation with their faith because we steadfastly cling to a barbaric, medieval notion that only single men can be fully ordained Priests in our church.

I get that even the Pope -- a supposedly absolute monarch -- has limits as to what he can do. Catholic means universal and he has many cultures to consider. Moreover, this issue hits at one of the cores of Catholic teaching on human sexuality. To renounce it would be to call into question many more of the teachings that reflect the foundation of who we are as Catholics. But what's lost in the effort to protect the institution rather than its people is the concept of positive moral value. Positive moral value teaches we all are equal in God's eyes and that there are basic rights and virtues that define the best in us all. Monogamy is one of those positive moral values (yes, Dr. Beach, the goofy tall guy in the back of the class was listening) and it does not matter your gender. I doubt God offers his sanctifying grace predicated on genital function. If two lesbians or two gay men, love each other and care deeply about each other, they've received the sacrament, whether some priest says so or not.

Even the Church has to change or its leaders will be held accountable by Him!

Perfecto!

The pope took some baby steps. Change is difficult, especially in old institutions. But you of course are absolutely correct.