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Author Topic: 1968 MU basketball player boycott  (Read 8667 times)

Scoop Snoop

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2020, 05:51:31 PM »
Wow, got to MU for Fall of '68 and never heard a word of this. Had limited interests at that stage, so if it didn't involve a female or alcohol, I wouldn't have listened too closely.
Thanks for posting it.

Ummm....I guess you missed the "In the Spring of 1968..." part. 
Wild horses couldn't drag me into either political party, but for very different reasons.

mileskishnish72

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2020, 06:06:45 PM »
That's the point, Snoop. 5-6 mos. later, no discussion of it.

real chili 83

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2020, 06:59:32 PM »
Mike, WTF.

avid1010

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2020, 08:07:24 PM »
i've always felt like the people advocating against BLM now are the same type advocating against this type of action in the late 60's and obviously long before.  i'm sure the people against BLM don't agree with that statement...the same way the people in the 60's said their argument was different from segregation defenders in the 40's and the same way the people in the 40's felt their defense of segregation was different than slavery...


Lennys Tap

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2020, 08:26:01 PM »
This level of trolling is beneath you, Doc.

But yes, long live the confederacy! Very important to celebrate traitors who went to war against America to protect the right to enslave other humans.

This level of trolling is beneath you, Mike.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2020, 08:55:20 PM »
i've always felt like the people advocating against BLM now are the same type advocating against this type of action in the late 60's and obviously long before.  i'm sure the people against BLM don't agree with that statement...the same way the people in the 60's said their argument was different from segregation defenders in the 40's and the same way the people in the 40's felt their defense of segregation was different than slavery...

I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.
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tower912

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2020, 09:07:47 PM »
This level of trolling is beneath you, Mike.
Agreed.   But he was clearly responding to Dr. Scrivello's trolling.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2020, 09:15:54 PM »
I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

Many keen observations in your post, TAMU. “The middle” can be much different place depending on one’s generation.

But Avid has a point, too. I know people who are pretty much always anti-change in the present who support change from the past now that they’ve gotten “used to” it.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 09:57:15 PM by Lennys Tap »

mutrainer71

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2020, 10:07:47 PM »
I remember that on national TV the warriors who were on the court just before commercial did a black power salute.  I can't remember who they were playing maybe you do Joe?  Or someone else.

And of course Goran Raspudic said there was no racial issues but that seems like a public statement. 

Newsdreams

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2020, 10:35:00 PM »
Taught wee knead ta erase history, hey?
Proof that grainless diet damages the brain.
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warriorjoe

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2020, 11:01:06 PM »
MU Trainer:

Goran was team manager from 1966-70, and he knew the players and coaches very well. There was a mutual trust, and Al set the tone with an all for one and one for all mindset.

Gary "Goose" Brell told me that Al insisted that the team did not have a black problem. The team had a white problem - Goose.

In the book I detail some of the back and forth between players like Goose and Joe Thomas, Dave Delsman and Marcus Washington, Allie McGuire and George "Sugar" Frazier.

When Al recruited, especially in New York, he knew who was good and who wasn't. Pat Smith told me that Al would ask him questions about players that had nothing to do with basketball. It was about how well the player in question would be able to get along with others. Would the player fit in with Al's system at Marquette? Would he play a particular role Al needed on the team?

All of this combined with Al's own street smarts from having seen the worst of people in bars had given him an insight into human nature and allowed him to make sure racial tension would not rear its ugly head in the locker room.

Goran knew from whence he spoke.

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avid1010

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2020, 06:36:53 AM »
I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

I agree completely.  Statistical evidence shows people vote more conservative as they age (typically attributed to fear).  I think the "that's how we were raised" comment is spot on, and exactly what I was stating.  A large portion of the population is a generation behind.  I was raised  to believe homosexuality was a mental illness and against my religion, and it's been a steady evolution to help me realize I have no interest is judging based on who someone sleeps with.  So plenty of people were raised to understand slavery was wrong, but it took from 1865 to 1954 for people to feel like blacks and whites should to go to school together (and that still hasn't really happened).  Show me someone looking for a reason to boycott BLM and I'll show you a similar person/rationale from someome wating to ensure slavery in the 1800's or segregated schools in the 1940's and beyond...religion, fear, economics, politics, values...

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2020, 09:02:18 AM »
Agreed.   But he was clearly responding to Dr. Scrivello's trolling.
More than likely he was trolling Crean who wanted any semblance of GT and his legacy at MU gone.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/17/genrel-073002aaa-html

Back to 2020, when can MU admit at least one JUCO to any sports team? It’s still been years when it used to commonplace. Sounds systemic to me.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2020, 09:22:26 AM »
More than likely he was trolling Crean who wanted any semblance of GT and his legacy at MU gone.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/17/genrel-073002aaa-html

Back to 2020, when can MU admit at least one JUCO to any sports team? It’s still been years when it used to commonplace. Sounds systemic to me.

Wojo has recruited them. They most certainly can be admitted.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2020, 10:29:36 AM »
Wojo has recruited them. They most certainly can be admitted.

What year will that be? In any sport?

Posters like 4ever are indeed trolling us but the meaning as usual has been missed with the key board rush to judgment. In fact, 4evers and other Warriors were on the front lines with these players. But when coaches and administrators wiped out these social histories to be replaced by a gold brick of cheese, most sat on their hands to let those histories be whitewashed.

When later administrators decided that MU “needed to be like SLU” and Georgetown and Notre Dame, programs like FFP were blown up.  It was all about the USNWR rankings and acceptance rates.  When the unwritten “Crowder Rules” (why Buzz really left) were implemented, no JUCOS in an MU sports have been enrolled.  It they can be, they must pass the same requirements as Johnny from Mequon.

Look, here is the reality, JUCOs are disproportionately minority with odds stacked against them. For every needle in the haystack, there are others like Jae or Dwight who had bad advice driven by their high school advisors. Lucky Lloyd Walton would not have been admitted, nor DW3. When in 2020, if these greats aren’t part of the MU history, we are NOT being the difference anymore.

As to this line that there are no longer any good JUCO’s in the talent pool anymore, Kansas, Louisville, Florida State, Georgia, St. John’s, Virginia and even SLU disagree.

Stop social masterbating on your keyboards and demand that MU change. Quit bitching about your priority points and ask MUAD to create a minority fund for scholarships that doesn’t go to lacrosse players or suburban walk-ons from Chicago.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 10:31:17 AM by Dr. Blackheart »

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2020, 12:43:49 PM »
What year will that be? In any sport?

Posters like 4ever are indeed trolling us but the meaning as usual has been missed with the key board rush to judgment. In fact, 4evers and other Warriors were on the front lines with these players. But when coaches and administrators wiped out these social histories to be replaced by a gold brick of cheese, most sat on their hands to let those histories be whitewashed.

When later administrators decided that MU “needed to be like SLU” and Georgetown and Notre Dame, programs like FFP were blown up.  It was all about the USNWR rankings and acceptance rates.  When the unwritten “Crowder Rules” (why Buzz really left) were implemented, no JUCOS in an MU sports have been enrolled.  It they can be, they must pass the same requirements as Johnny from Mequon.

Look, here is the reality, JUCOs are disproportionately minority with odds stacked against them. For every needle in the haystack, there are others like Jae or Dwight who had bad advice driven by their high school advisors. Lucky Lloyd Walton would not have been admitted, nor DW3. When in 2020, if these greats aren’t part of the MU history, we are NOT being the difference anymore.


Dr. B, I appreciate your passion, but you are wrong about a lot in this post. There has never been a desire to be like SLU. While some may dream of one day being mentioned with Georgetown, BC, and Notre Dame, no one in the administration thinks that's a reasonable goal. If you follow MU administration's priorities, we have a lot more in common with St. Thomas, Dayton, and Gonzaga than we do with any of the elite three catholic schools. Funny enough the peer we should aspire to is probably Villanova who is also who we aspire to be on the basketball court.

If you mention USNWR at the highest levels at MU they will laugh you out of the room. Many of the moves made have actually run counter to a higher USNWR ranking. Meanwhile MU's student population is more diverse than ever. Now an argument could be and should be made that we are not doing enough to support students, specifically students of color once they are admitted. But your thesis that we are abandoning minority students in pursuit of USNWR rankings is false.

The "Crowder Rule" as you put it, is part of why Buzz left. There was a lot more to it, most of it having to do with Buzz' need for power, control, and success and less with supporting minority students as you seem to imply.

Yes, JUCOs are disproportionally minority with odds stacked against them. You know what other group is disproportionately minority with the odds stacked against? Every single scholarship player on the men's basketball roster right now. You don't need to recruit JUCOs to fulfill that part of our mission. Those recruits exist by the hundreds in the high school and transfer ranks. Given that MU has been recruiting these students, it seems like that's not your actual grievance. Your grievance is that MU doesn't recruit players who don't qualify academically.

As to this line that there are no longer any good JUCO’s in the talent pool anymore, Kansas, Louisville, Florida State, Georgia, St. John’s, Virginia and even SLU disagree.

Kansas: ZERO JUCOs on their current roster, and haven't signed one since Wojo took over
Louisiville: 1 JUCO in current recruiting class, prior to him they haven't signed a single JUCO since Wojo took over
Florida State: Recruited 7 JUCOs since Wojo took over. 4 averaged around 11 minutes a game for their careers (highest was 12 lowest was 9), 1 averaged less than 6 minutes a game for his career, 1 literally never saw the court, and the last hasn't played a game yet (start next season).
Georgia: Hasn't made it to the NCAA tournament since Wojo's first year. 3 JUCOs in current recruiting class, prior to those three, recruited 1 JUCO who averaged 10 minutes a game for his career
St. John's: Three losing seasons and one appearance in Dayton since Wojo took over. Have recruited 5 JUCOs since Wojo took over, 2 of which started at D1 level and went to JUCO rather than sit out a year after transfering. 1 was a 2 year starter (SJU had a losing record both seasons), 1 Averaged 12 minutes a game for his career, and 1 literally never saw the court
Virginia: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter
SLU: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter....for SLU

So in 7 recruiting classes in the 7 schools you names you found exactly 3 JUCOs who averaged more than 12 minutes a game for their schools and one of those 2 did while playing for a sub-500 high major and another did it for mid-major SLU.

JUCO isn't what it once was. Players used to go there when they were holding out for a D1 offer. Now, they have 353 schools to choose from who will give them a full ride. They can always transfer up if they are good enough. Most of the players who end up in JUCO are there because they weren't good enough to earn a scholarship for a low major team and hope they can play their way up in the JUCO ranks.

There not being a lot of talent in the JUCO ranks isn't a line, it's a verifiable fact. Some coaches, such as Buzz have a niche there and get the cream of the crop. But its a very small pool and the coaches with connections there are going to have the advantage. Wojo has kicked the tires on a few JUCOs but ultimately his recruiting network is in the high school and transfer ranks. BTW, the JUCO whisperer, Buzz has only recruited 1 JUCO at TAMU in 2 classes and recruited only 3 in 5 classes at VT (1 of which never saw the court). I guess VT and TAMU had the "Crowder rule" too?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 12:46:38 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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MU82

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2020, 01:36:44 PM »
The "Crowder Rule" as you put it, is part of why Buzz left. There was a lot more to it, most of it having to do with Buzz' need for power, control, and success and less with supporting minority students as you seem to imply.

Yes, JUCOs are disproportionally minority with odds stacked against them. You know what other group is disproportionately minority with the odds stacked against? Every single scholarship player on the men's basketball roster right now. You don't need to recruit JUCOs to fulfill that part of our mission. Those recruits exist by the hundreds in the high school and transfer ranks. Given that MU has been recruiting these students, it seems like that's not your actual grievance. Your grievance is that MU doesn't recruit players who don't qualify academically.

Kansas: ZERO JUCOs on their current roster, and haven't signed one since Wojo took over
Louisiville: 1 JUCO in current recruiting class, prior to him they haven't signed a single JUCO since Wojo took over
Florida State: Recruited 7 JUCOs since Wojo took over. 4 averaged around 11 minutes a game for their careers (highest was 12 lowest was 9), 1 averaged less than 6 minutes a game for his career, 1 literally never saw the court, and the last hasn't played a game yet (start next season).
Georgia: Hasn't made it to the NCAA tournament since Wojo's first year. 3 JUCOs in current recruiting class, prior to those three, recruited 1 JUCO who averaged 10 minutes a game for his career
St. John's: Three losing seasons and one appearance in Dayton since Wojo took over. Have recruited 5 JUCOs since Wojo took over, 2 of which started at D1 level and went to JUCO rather than sit out a year after transfering. 1 was a 2 year starter (SJU had a losing record both seasons), 1 Averaged 12 minutes a game for his career, and 1 literally never saw the court
Virginia: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter
SLU: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter....for SLU

So in 7 recruiting classes in the 7 schools you names you found exactly 3 JUCOs who averaged more than 12 minutes a game for their schools and one of those 2 did while playing for a sub-500 high major and another did it for mid-major SLU.

JUCO isn't what it once was. Players used to go there when they were holding out for a D1 offer. Now, they have 353 schools to choose from who will give them a full ride. They can always transfer up if they are good enough. Most of the players who end up in JUCO are there because they weren't good enough to earn a scholarship for a low major team and hope they can play their way up in the JUCO ranks.

There not being a lot of talent in the JUCO ranks isn't a line, it's a verifiable fact. Some coaches, such as Buzz have a niche there and get the cream of the crop. But its a very small pool and the coaches with connections there are going to have the advantage. Wojo has kicked the tires on a few JUCOs but ultimately his recruiting network is in the high school and transfer ranks. BTW, the JUCO whisperer, Buzz has only recruited 1 JUCO at TAMU in 2 classes and recruited only 3 in 5 classes at VT (1 of which never saw the court). I guess VT and TAMU had the "Crowder rule" too?

Outstanding series of facts here, TAMU.

There is plenty to go after Wojo for without attacking him for nothing, and plenty to criticize MU honchos for without making stuff up.
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cheebs09

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #42 on: August 30, 2020, 03:56:26 PM »
I thought part of the Juco rules was to get ahead of the NCAA APR rules. Schools were starting to get banned from the NCAA tournament due to low scores. Juco’s were at a disadvantage at MU because of credits not transferring as easily, and making it tougher to be on track to graduate. Which would then cause hits to the APR scores when they left since they couldn’t reasonably graduate in 2 years.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #43 on: August 30, 2020, 06:36:09 PM »
TAMU,

Appreciate the balanced response.  However, let’s level set your version of the facts.

Scott Pilarz had a stated university goal of improving The USNews standing.  It was in the university’s strategic plan.  I have glad the the current administration is now laughing at it, and have backtracked up much of that stupidity. Pilarz also publically stated we can wrong a basketball program like SLU and still be successful.  I am glad the BOT whacked him.

As to JUCO’s, please find the lists from the past two seasons.  The number #1 player was headed to Kansas as well as the other ones I mentioned.

https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2020-junior-college-basketball-player-rankings-top-100
https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2019-juco-basketball-top-100-rankings

As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.  I am sure the New Trier LAX player is in need too...but MU needs to be the difference.  Sorry, an exclusionary rule likely that is institutional racism.  What’s worse, MU now tailgates on these individuals success that the elite refuse to admit.  I encourage you all to watch “It’s a Beautiful Thing”.  More is needed to help these inner-city kids...like MU used too.  But, MU has drifted away from it’s mission.

I also encourage all season ticket holders to direct their donations toward this goal. Why was what used to be allowed and MU was proud of, now not in evidence?  Look in the mirror MU.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2020, 06:45:36 PM »
Scott Pilarz left the university almost seven years ago. Almost the entire administration has changed since then. I have my seen MU talk about USN&WR ranking related to any strategic goal for years.  And TAMU is right, if it is a goal, they are going about it all wrong.

And you are 100% wrong about Marquette abandoning its mission related to inner city students. You’re reaching that conclusion based on basketball Juco transfers???  🙄🙄🙄

Marquette’s classes have been WAY more diverse the last five years compared to the five years prior. More first generation too.

https://www.marquette.edu/institutional-research-analysis/interactive-reports/freshman-dash.php
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 06:51:22 PM by Fluffy Blue Monster »
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Pakuni

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2020, 09:42:56 PM »
As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.

Meet soccer player Matheus Pereira. who came to Marquette this year from Marshalltown Community College.

https://gomarquette.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/matheus-pereira/5255

FWIW, it's a bad, cliched argument to claim JUCOs are "inner-city" kids. Jimmy Butler comes from a town of about 10,000. Jae Crowder comes from a metropolis of about 4,000.
In the meantime, MU in recent years has recruited no lack of kids from the actual inner city, i.e. Theo John, Sacar Anim, Greg Elliott, Ed Morrow.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 09:56:37 PM by Pakuni »

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2020, 09:45:05 PM »
TAMU,

Appreciate the balanced response.  However, let’s level set your version of the facts.

Scott Pilarz had a stated university goal of improving The USNews standing.  It was in the university’s strategic plan.  I have glad the the current administration is now laughing at it, and have backtracked up much of that stupidity. Pilarz also publically stated we can wrong a basketball program like SLU and still be successful.  I am glad the BOT whacked him.

Both of these are very different points from your original post. Mentioning USNWR in a strategic plan is very different from everything being about improving USNWR at the expense of minority students. I'd estimate well over half of university strategic plans in the country mention USNWR in their strategic plans. As flawed as the metric can be, students, parents, and some alumni and employers consider it to be the gold standard. And saying we can be successful is different from aspiring to be SLU. Also, as you point out, the man got canned. He hasn't been here since Wojo took over.

TAMU,
As to JUCO’s, please find the lists from the past two seasons.  The number #1 player was headed to Kansas as well as the other ones I mentioned.

https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2020-junior-college-basketball-player-rankings-top-100
https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2019-juco-basketball-top-100-rankings

Mea culpa, I did miss this one. Still adding one to the list doesn't really change my overall impression. And we will see how many minutes he ends up earning this season (assuming there is a season. #1 JUCOs are usually pretty good bet, but it's not uncommon for top 10 JUCOs to end up as role players or worse. Last year's #2 ended up averaging about 21 minutes a game....for Missouri State. Though the rest of the top 10 played some decent minutes for lower level high majors and mid-majors. Again, it's not that there are zero Big East ready JUCOs, its that the pool is very small.


As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.  I am sure the New Trier LAX player is in need too...but MU needs to be the difference.  Sorry, an exclusionary rule likely that is institutional racism.  What’s worse, MU now tailgates on these individuals success that the elite refuse to admit.  I encourage you all to watch “It’s a Beautiful Thing”.  More is needed to help these inner-city kids...like MU used too.  But, MU has drifted away from it’s mission.

I also encourage all season ticket holders to direct their donations toward this goal. Why was what used to be allowed and MU was proud of, now not in evidence?  Look in the mirror MU.

There is no exclusionary rule other not taking players who can't qualify academically. That impacts JUCOs, high school students, and regular transfers (doubt it impacts grad transfers but not sure). Yes, there is a disparate impact on JUCOs because many of JUCOs choose to major in Phy. Ed. which MU doesn't have a program in so their credits don't transfer. I'm all for relooking at MU's transfer policies but there is nothing wrong with recruiting athletes who qualify academically. For every Big East ready JUCO who doesn't qualify academically from disadvantaged background there are over a dozen Big East ready athletes who do qualify academically from equally disadvantaged backgrounds. Why is it necessary to take athletes who don't academically qualify to fulfill our mission?

As for you assertion about the other sports, I honestly can't speak to them as I don't follow them as closely. But I'd ask, how many JUCO transfer swimmers were we recruiting prior to the so called "Crowder Rule"? How many JUCO transfer women's basketball players? How many JUCO transfer volleyball players? I don't know what the JUCO markets are like in those sports. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the men's basketball team was the only where we recruited a significant number of JUCOs.

I agree with your general thesis that MU can and should be doing more to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I actually think MU has been doing a better job recruiting these students during the Lovell era but I wish they would spend more on supporting them once they are here. But I don't think the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball is evidence that they have gone away from their mission.
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muwarrior69

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2020, 11:23:41 AM »
Both of these are very different points from your original post. Mentioning USNWR in a strategic plan is very different from everything being about improving USNWR at the expense of minority students. I'd estimate well over half of university strategic plans in the country mention USNWR in their strategic plans. As flawed as the metric can be, students, parents, and some alumni and employers consider it to be the gold standard. And saying we can be successful is different from aspiring to be SLU. Also, as you point out, the man got canned. He hasn't been here since Wojo took over.

Mea culpa, I did miss this one. Still adding one to the list doesn't really change my overall impression. And we will see how many minutes he ends up earning this season (assuming there is a season. #1 JUCOs are usually pretty good bet, but it's not uncommon for top 10 JUCOs to end up as role players or worse. Last year's #2 ended up averaging about 21 minutes a game....for Missouri State. Though the rest of the top 10 played some decent minutes for lower level high majors and mid-majors. Again, it's not that there are zero Big East ready JUCOs, its that the pool is very small.


There is no exclusionary rule other not taking players who can't qualify academically. That impacts JUCOs, high school students, and regular transfers (doubt it impacts grad transfers but not sure). Yes, there is a disparate impact on JUCOs because many of JUCOs choose to major in Phy. Ed. which MU doesn't have a program in so their credits don't transfer. I'm all for relooking at MU's transfer policies but there is nothing wrong with recruiting athletes who qualify academically. For every Big East ready JUCO who doesn't qualify academically from disadvantaged background there are over a dozen Big East ready athletes who do qualify academically from equally disadvantaged backgrounds. Why is it necessary to take athletes who don't academically qualify to fulfill our mission?

As for you assertion about the other sports, I honestly can't speak to them as I don't follow them as closely. But I'd ask, how many JUCO transfer swimmers were we recruiting prior to the so called "Crowder Rule"? How many JUCO transfer women's basketball players? How many JUCO transfer volleyball players? I don't know what the JUCO markets are like in those sports. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the men's basketball team was the only where we recruited a significant number of JUCOs.

I agree with your general thesis that MU can and should be doing more to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I actually think MU has been doing a better job recruiting these students during the Lovell era but I wish they would spend more on supporting them once they are here. But I don't think the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball is evidence that they have gone away from their mission.

Why is that? Phys. Ed. too expensive? I'm sure some some soccer, volley ball and other student athletes would choose to major if given the opportunity.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2020, 11:27:51 AM by muwarrior69 »

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2020, 11:26:32 AM »
Why is that?


Why do JUCOs major in phy ed?  Oftentimes they are directed in that way by coaches who teach in the department. 

Why doesn't Marquette have a phy ed major?  Has it ever?

Why don't the credits transfer?  They most likely do as a general credit, but they don't count toward a specific graduation requirement.
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mileskishnish72

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Re: 1968 MU basketball player boycott
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2020, 04:04:22 PM »
Nice back and forth, Dr. B and TAMU, with some contributions from Fluff. Love seeing articulate discussion of MU hoops, with factual presentations and no ad hominem attacks.

The discussion got me to thinking: is there a record of who has graduated and who has not? If so, it might be germane to the points dealt with above. I know that at one point several years ago, MU had a 100% rating by one agency. I suspect that that has changed. If the information is available somewhere, I'd appreciate knowing the site.

 

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