1968 MU basketball player boycott

[warriorjoe]

In light of the recent protests and boycotts by some of the professional sports leagues, it seems appropriate - and relevant - to take a look back at the boycott of the Marquette basketball team in 1968, how it affected the campus and how the university administration reacted in deciding to start an Educational Opportunity Program for minorities on campus, one of the first in the country. The excerpt below is taken from the Centennial Edition of "You Can Call Me Al: The Colorful Journey of College Basketball's Original Flower Child, Al McGuire," by 1980 Marquette graduate Joseph Declan Moran, published by JDM Press 2019, Arlington Heights, IL.
The book is available at the Marquette Spirit Shop on campus and via Moran's website (www.jdmpress.net). When accessing the site, click on Contact Us to send an email with your pertinent information, number of books you want to purchase and whether you want it signed. This excerpt is taken from the book's chapter "Goin' Uptown."

In the late 1960s, race relations, or the "checkerboard," as McGuire called it, was a dicey proposition, especially at a school like Marquette which had a very small minority enrollment. "There were fewer than forty blacks at Marquette at that time," estimated [Milwaukee] Sentinel reporter Mike Christopulos.

As the high profile leader of the Warriors, Thompson was approached by some of the activists on campus about boycotting the basketball team to protest what they called the "institutional racism" at the university. "Many of the minority students on campus believed that Marquette University was giving lip service to us," noted Thompson. One of the spokesmen for the activists was Gus Moye, who played just one year at Marquette, his freshman year (1964-65).

"Auguste Gus Moye was a smart, well-rounded individual," recalled [Blanton] Simmons. "He was a 6'4" forward from Aliquippa, Pennsylvania. He was a most engaging guy. He was 28 at the time. Gus was a role model to all of us. He never did get to the varsity level.

"George was more socially adept. Pat [Smith] had a brother who had been murdered. We'd never been around white people. Who we were, many people thought we were inferior," explained Simmons.

"In the spring of 1968, the revolution, or the insurrection, as it was called, was led by Gus and George," recalled [Dean] Meminger. "It was during that time that blacks were taking a stand. George was the captain. They [activists] said if we do things without your support, we're gone. You guys [basketball players] have the clout. Are you down?

"I was into my nation-building at the time. The Black Power Movement, a term coined by Stokely Carmichael. How the institution was using us. It's still an old-boys network. I stepped across the tracks to live with you guys [white establishment] to be a good black guy. When do you step over to this side? It eats at your core," stated Meminger.

"The players were being pressured to boycott the team," recalled Smith. "Minorities were looking for concessions from the university. Marquette was being hard-nosed. There were pressures on the players to do something."

"There was a group on campus called RESPOND [a coalition of black and nonblack students]. They were trying to court more black students and get more minority faculty members at Marquette," recalled [David] Foran. "It happened after the shooting of Martin Luther King. Stuff had been going on on campus.

"They signed a statement saying that they would no longer play basketball at Marquette. Jim Foley had called Al to let him know what was going on," continued Foran.

McGuire had left earlier that afternoon for a speaking engagement in Montello, Wisconsin. But he had a feeling something was up when he left Milwaukee. Thompson, Meminger, Simmons, Smith, Thomas, and Keith Edwards all signed the statement. Late that afternoon, the local headlines blared: "Six Cagers Quit MU."

"George Thompson, Blanton Simmons, Gus Moye, and all the players came out to where I was working in West Allis, Wisconsin, as a [security] guard," said Smith. "We decided that if Marquette didn't give us concessions, we would leave the team. Al said to us, 'Make sure you know what you're doin'.' We let the black campus organizations know."

"George came into my office," recalled [Hank] Raymonds. "Al was not in town at the time. I asked him, 'What do you want to do, George?' So, I sent him to Father [Raymond] McAuley. And then I got a hold of McAuley and I told him that George was coming over. I said, 'If you lie to him, father, Al and I are gone.' Al comes back later and met with the players in the early morning hours."

Recalled Thompson, "We wanted the word of somebody who was respected. It couldn't get any better than Father [John] Raynor. If, in fact, he said anything, I had no need to doubt his word. He was a wonderful person."

"The university wasn't going to let us go, so they would have to negotiate," declared Meminger.

"We left school," said Thompson, "and there was a black boycott. We dropped out of school for a couple of days. Gus and a few others were heavily involved. They recognized that we had a profile on campus and came to us. 'We need you guys so that people on campus will sit up and take notice.' There had been some real civil and earnest discussion, but as it turned out that wasn't the case," Thompson said.

RESPOND presented an ultimatum to the administration. It wanted a black hired full-time immediately as staff coordinator and scholarship coordinator. The students wanted a Minority Equal Opportunity program at the university. As part of that, they called for an increase in the number of minority students and faculty members at Marquette.

Some eight hundred students began demonstrating on campus. Seven were arrested, including a priest. The Theology Department's faculty, expressing disgust with the failure of the administration to take steps to end institutional racism, threatened to resign from the university.

President Raynor promptly issued a rebuke of the demands, stating unequivocally, "This university will not be governed by coercion, nor will it respond to rash and loosely conceived program demands of such groups." Raynor did promise to form a broadly representative committee to work toward meeting demands.

"I knew where to get a hold of Al," remembered [Jim] Foley. "He told me that he was going to wait until everything cooled down. When he came in, he picked the right time."

"Sometime after midnight [1:30 A.M.] we were there with Al and his players at the Holiday Inn Central. He invited us," noted Christopulos. "Al first asked Thompson, 'What are these guys doin' for you? They're just usin' you.'" McGuire went on to tell the players that they had God-given talents and should use those to better themselves. He added that quitting school was like cutting off their hands.

McGuire then met with Moye and the other activists at a nearby apartment. According to published reports, the shouting match between Moye and McGuire could be heard blocks away. "What Al didn't realize," explained Thompson, "was that there was and are some legitimate concerns that minority people had in their day. We had less hassles because we were ballplayers. But that didn't change the fact that we were minorities in a majority society. What Al was saying was his opinion. He was looking at it as a coach."

McGuire lashed out at the activists, priests, and others who tried to co-opt his players to their cause, according to Frank Deford's account in his chapter on McGuire, "Depression Baby," from his book The World's Tallest Midget. The account was later excerpted in Sports Illustrated as "Welcome to my World," on November 29, 1976.

"The smooth-talking theorists he screamed at. The tough guys he ridiculed. He suggested to an idealistic coed that she should take one of the black players home to her suburb for Thanksgiving. To a priest, he snarled, 'Don't come after these kids from the Jesuit house. You never bought a pound of butter in your life, and you're asking them to be kamikaze pilots.'"

McGuire defused the situation early that morning. At 5:45 A.M. Thompson released a statement saying that the players were going back to school. "We have met with Father McAuley and he has our best interests at heart."

"I think it was a couple or three days," said Thompson. "There was enough time to have passed that it got the attention of the city and Marquette administration. The administration then decided to make changes. Now they knew we were serious and they seemed to know the seriousness of the situation."

"Teams in the South had no black players in the 1960s," explained Foran. "With Al, who he perceived to be the guys who could do the job would be the ones on the floor."

"Al came along in an era when the black athlete was trying to find himself, and be accepted as far as society is concerned," said Raymonds. "There weren't any black athletes playing basketball down South. He came along at the right time. We would get calls from coaches in the South asking us, 'How do you handle the black player?' We said you treat them like everyone else. These people played for Al because they knew he was doing something for them."

"Then Marquette made concessions to the organization," said Smith. "When it hit the papers, what came out of it was a minority advancement program. We were serious about it. There was a lot of pressure on us."

"As a result of that stand, the university started the Minority Equal Opportunity Program, from which my wife was the first graduate," noted Meminger proudly. "The politically correct thing at the time was 'Let's do a minority program. We gotta give 'em a bone.' But what about the two hundred years when you built the country on our backs?"

"It became the Educational Opportunity Program [EOP]," recalled Dr. James Scott, who was later named university vice president of student affairs. "Arnold Mitchem was named the first director of the program. He was taking his Ph.D. at Marquette. He did a good job."

Marquette was one of the first schools in the country to have a full-fledged EOP, according to James Sankovitz, a university vice president. He noted that Mitchem served as national director until 1986. (Dr. Mitchem is president emeritus of the Council for Opportunity in Education and was elected to the Marquette Board of Trustees in 2008.)

But that was not the end of it. According to Foran, "The night of the Pere Marquette Dinner, students blocked the door to the entrance. It was May 5, 1968. It was civil disobedience. A month later, Bobby Kennedy was killed."

Later that summer Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists in the Black Power salute at the Olympic Games in Mexico City, a gesture that would be repeated during the upcoming college basketball season. And in Chicago, while the whole world was watching, what began as civil disobedience outside the Democratic National Convention turned into an uncivil disturbance as police battled - and battered - young demonstrators in the streets of Chicago, while inside the International Amphitheater the beleaguered Democratic Party, still reeling from the assassination of Senator Robert Kennedy, nominated Vice President Hubert Humphrey to be the standard-bearer in the election for the presidency.

What took place at Marquette was a microcosm of what was happening around the country. It was the beginning of consciousness-raising for players like Thompson, Simmons, Smith, and Meminger in determining who they were and where they fit into American society. For Meminger, it was all about the importance of self-image.

"It [progress] doesn't happen in fifty, sixty, seventy years. Anything that was black, you hated. Self-hatred. There was not a healthy self-image for blacks." But McGuire was determined that the era he described as "hand grenades in their hands" would not impact his team. "Al said, 'Hey, we're not gonna have a checkerboard problem on my team.' We never had a problem in terms of race," noted [team manager Goran] Raspudic.

Go Warriors!

[MU82]

Super interesting, joe. I didn't know that happened. I appreciate this post.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Proof reading pick up:  Montello, not montella.

Thanks for sharing joe.

[nycwarrior]

Great post. Hadn’t heard this story in its entirety. Especially the connection to the founding of the EOP program.

[tower912]

I had heard a much shorter. much less interesting version.    Thank you.     It is so important to know your history.   

[4everwarriors]

Taught wee knead ta erase history, hey?

[Scoop Snoop]

I was a sophomore at Marquette at the time and remember the very tense atmosphere very well, not just at Marquette but nation wide. I doubt that any coach other than Al have could handled the situation. McAuley was a real hard ass and he eventually was quietly removed from his position at Marquette. Raynor was the right president for the times so Marquette had 2 men who listened and knew how to help resolve the extremely tense situation.

Raymond's warning to Mc Auley about lying supports my memory of what kind of a guy Mc Auley was. Thompson's trusting of Raynor also supports my memory of what kind of guy Raynor was. George must have really struggled to compliment Mc Auley so that the door could be closed for a while. 

 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Fighting systemic racism is in Marquette basketball's DNA. Glad to see the current players continue that tradition

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Great post. Hadn’t heard this story in its entirety. Especially the connection to the founding of the EOP program.

I didn’t know that either. 

[brewcity77]

Thanks for sharing, Joe. Excellent stuff, and glad to see how much of what started at Marquette in the 1960s is still alive and well today.

[Galway Eagle]

Nice. Great except thanks for sharing

[warriorjoe]

You are all welcome.

As I mentioned in another post, someone had to write this history. And I'm glad that I took the time to do it.

While everything in my journalism career prepared me to write this book, it was still the hardest thing I have accomplished in my career.

I hope you guys enjoy the entire book.

Go Warriors!

[real chili 83]

Thanks Joe.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Proof reading pick up:  Montello, not montella.

Thanks for sharing joe.

I find it funny that back in the day, Marquette’s basketball coach would drive to Montello for a speaking engagement.

[The Lens]

The EOP exists because a few MU hoopers decided to (essentially) say" "Black lives matter". 

We are Marquette!

[The Lens]

The EOP exists because a few MU hoopers decided to (essentially) say" "Black lives matter". 

We are Marquette!

p.s. never for get that 40 years later Tom Crean would try and unretire George Thompson's number bc Brute Force didn't bow to TC.  It was a crime then and it's a crime today.  George Thompson is Marquette basketball.  Tom Crean was just a role player.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

p.s. never for get that 40 years later Tom Crean would try and unretire George Thompson's number bc Brute Force didn't bow to TC.  It was a crime then and it's a crime today.  George Thompson is Marquette basketball.  Tom Crean was just a role player.

It was a dumb idea but don’t exaggerate. 

[4everwarriors]

Crean sucks

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

p.s. never for get that 40 years later Tom Crean would try and unretire George Thompson's number bc Brute Force didn't bow to TC.  It was a crime then and it's a crime today.  George Thompson is Marquette basketball.  Tom Crean was just a role player.

This happened under Wojo too.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Terrific story.  Thank you for sharing.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Fighting systemic racism is in Marquette basketball's DNA. Glad to see the current players continue that tradition

Amen.

[mileskishnish72]

Wow, got to MU for Fall of '68 and never heard a word of this. Had limited interests at that stage, so if it didn't involve a female or alcohol, I wouldn't have listened too closely.
Thanks for posting it.

[warriorjoe]

And there are plenty more stories in the book about Al. Some of the more humorous ones are in the chapters on his coaching/recruiting days at Belmont Abbey and his professional playing days with the New York Knicks.
Some of this stuff you could not make up.

Go Warriors!

[Dawson Rental]

This story really confuses me because the only kid I knew freshman year (1975-76) who was in EOP was a white guy who lived in a very nice big house in Lake Forest, Illinois and whose father was a doctor.  I just thought it was for any kid who otherwise didn't qualify for admission to MU.

[MU82]

Taught wee knead ta erase history, hey?

This level of trolling is beneath you, Doc.

But yes, long live the confederacy! Very important to celebrate traitors who went to war against America to protect the right to enslave other humans.

[Scoop Snoop]

Wow, got to MU for Fall of '68 and never heard a word of this. Had limited interests at that stage, so if it didn't involve a female or alcohol, I wouldn't have listened too closely.
Thanks for posting it.

Ummm....I guess you missed the "In the Spring of 1968..." part. 

[mileskishnish72]

That's the point, Snoop. 5-6 mos. later, no discussion of it.

[real chili 83]

Mike, WTF.

[avid1010]

i've always felt like the people advocating against BLM now are the same type advocating against this type of action in the late 60's and obviously long before.  i'm sure the people against BLM don't agree with that statement...the same way the people in the 60's said their argument was different from segregation defenders in the 40's and the same way the people in the 40's felt their defense of segregation was different than slavery...

[Lennys Tap]

This level of trolling is beneath you, Doc.

But yes, long live the confederacy! Very important to celebrate traitors who went to war against America to protect the right to enslave other humans.

This level of trolling is beneath you, Mike.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

i've always felt like the people advocating against BLM now are the same type advocating against this type of action in the late 60's and obviously long before.  i'm sure the people against BLM don't agree with that statement...the same way the people in the 60's said their argument was different from segregation defenders in the 40's and the same way the people in the 40's felt their defense of segregation was different than slavery...

I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

[tower912]

This level of trolling is beneath you, Mike.

Agreed.   But he was clearly responding to Dr. Scrivello's trolling.

[Lennys Tap]

I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

Many keen observations in your post, TAMU. “The middle” can be much different place depending on one’s generation.

But Avid has a point, too. I know people who are pretty much always anti-change in the present who support change from the past now that they’ve gotten “used to” it.

[mutrainer71]

I remember that on national TV the warriors who were on the court just before commercial did a black power salute.  I can't remember who they were playing maybe you do Joe?  Or someone else.

And of course Goran Raspudic said there was no racial issues but that seems like a public statement. 

[Newsdreams]

Taught wee knead ta erase history, hey?

Proof that grainless diet damages the brain.

[warriorjoe]

MU Trainer:

Goran was team manager from 1966-70, and he knew the players and coaches very well. There was a mutual trust, and Al set the tone with an all for one and one for all mindset.

Gary "Goose" Brell told me that Al insisted that the team did not have a black problem. The team had a white problem - Goose.

In the book I detail some of the back and forth between players like Goose and Joe Thomas, Dave Delsman and Marcus Washington, Allie McGuire and George "Sugar" Frazier.

When Al recruited, especially in New York, he knew who was good and who wasn't. Pat Smith told me that Al would ask him questions about players that had nothing to do with basketball. It was about how well the player in question would be able to get along with others. Would the player fit in with Al's system at Marquette? Would he play a particular role Al needed on the team?

All of this combined with Al's own street smarts from having seen the worst of people in bars had given him an insight into human nature and allowed him to make sure racial tension would not rear its ugly head in the locker room.

Goran knew from whence he spoke.

Go Warriors!

[avid1010]

I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

I agree completely.  Statistical evidence shows people vote more conservative as they age (typically attributed to fear).  I think the "that's how we were raised" comment is spot on, and exactly what I was stating.  A large portion of the population is a generation behind.  I was raised  to believe homosexuality was a mental illness and against my religion, and it's been a steady evolution to help me realize I have no interest is judging based on who someone sleeps with.  So plenty of people were raised to understand slavery was wrong, but it took from 1865 to 1954 for people to feel like blacks and whites should to go to school together (and that still hasn't really happened).  Show me someone looking for a reason to boycott BLM and I'll show you a similar person/rationale from someome wating to ensure slavery in the 1800's or segregated schools in the 1940's and beyond...religion, fear, economics, politics, values...

[Dr. Blackheart]

Agreed.   But he was clearly responding to Dr. Scrivello's trolling.

More than likely he was trolling Crean who wanted any semblance of GT and his legacy at MU gone.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/17/genrel-073002aaa-html

Back to 2020, when can MU admit at least one JUCO to any sports team? It’s still been years when it used to commonplace. Sounds systemic to me.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

More than likely he was trolling Crean who wanted any semblance of GT and his legacy at MU gone.
https://gomarquette.com/sports/2018/5/17/genrel-073002aaa-html

Back to 2020, when can MU admit at least one JUCO to any sports team? It’s still been years when it used to commonplace. Sounds systemic to me.

Wojo has recruited them. They most certainly can be admitted.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Wojo has recruited them. They most certainly can be admitted.

What year will that be? In any sport?

Posters like 4ever are indeed trolling us but the meaning as usual has been missed with the key board rush to judgment. In fact, 4evers and other Warriors were on the front lines with these players. But when coaches and administrators wiped out these social histories to be replaced by a gold brick of cheese, most sat on their hands to let those histories be whitewashed.

When later administrators decided that MU “needed to be like SLU” and Georgetown and Notre Dame, programs like FFP were blown up.  It was all about the USNWR rankings and acceptance rates.  When the unwritten “Crowder Rules” (why Buzz really left) were implemented, no JUCOS in an MU sports have been enrolled.  It they can be, they must pass the same requirements as Johnny from Mequon.

Look, here is the reality, JUCOs are disproportionately minority with odds stacked against them. For every needle in the haystack, there are others like Jae or Dwight who had bad advice driven by their high school advisors. Lucky Lloyd Walton would not have been admitted, nor DW3. When in 2020, if these greats aren’t part of the MU history, we are NOT being the difference anymore.

As to this line that there are no longer any good JUCO’s in the talent pool anymore, Kansas, Louisville, Florida State, Georgia, St. John’s, Virginia and even SLU disagree.

Stop social masterbating on your keyboards and demand that MU change. Quit bitching about your priority points and ask MUAD to create a minority fund for scholarships that doesn’t go to lacrosse players or suburban walk-ons from Chicago.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

What year will that be? In any sport?

Posters like 4ever are indeed trolling us but the meaning as usual has been missed with the key board rush to judgment. In fact, 4evers and other Warriors were on the front lines with these players. But when coaches and administrators wiped out these social histories to be replaced by a gold brick of cheese, most sat on their hands to let those histories be whitewashed.

When later administrators decided that MU “needed to be like SLU” and Georgetown and Notre Dame, programs like FFP were blown up.  It was all about the USNWR rankings and acceptance rates.  When the unwritten “Crowder Rules” (why Buzz really left) were implemented, no JUCOS in an MU sports have been enrolled.  It they can be, they must pass the same requirements as Johnny from Mequon.

Look, here is the reality, JUCOs are disproportionately minority with odds stacked against them. For every needle in the haystack, there are others like Jae or Dwight who had bad advice driven by their high school advisors. Lucky Lloyd Walton would not have been admitted, nor DW3. When in 2020, if these greats aren’t part of the MU history, we are NOT being the difference anymore.

Dr. B, I appreciate your passion, but you are wrong about a lot in this post. There has never been a desire to be like SLU. While some may dream of one day being mentioned with Georgetown, BC, and Notre Dame, no one in the administration thinks that's a reasonable goal. If you follow MU administration's priorities, we have a lot more in common with St. Thomas, Dayton, and Gonzaga than we do with any of the elite three catholic schools. Funny enough the peer we should aspire to is probably Villanova who is also who we aspire to be on the basketball court.

If you mention USNWR at the highest levels at MU they will laugh you out of the room. Many of the moves made have actually run counter to a higher USNWR ranking. Meanwhile MU's student population is more diverse than ever. Now an argument could be and should be made that we are not doing enough to support students, specifically students of color once they are admitted. But your thesis that we are abandoning minority students in pursuit of USNWR rankings is false.

The "Crowder Rule" as you put it, is part of why Buzz left. There was a lot more to it, most of it having to do with Buzz' need for power, control, and success and less with supporting minority students as you seem to imply.

Yes, JUCOs are disproportionally minority with odds stacked against them. You know what other group is disproportionately minority with the odds stacked against? Every single scholarship player on the men's basketball roster right now. You don't need to recruit JUCOs to fulfill that part of our mission. Those recruits exist by the hundreds in the high school and transfer ranks. Given that MU has been recruiting these students, it seems like that's not your actual grievance. Your grievance is that MU doesn't recruit players who don't qualify academically.

As to this line that there are no longer any good JUCO’s in the talent pool anymore, Kansas, Louisville, Florida State, Georgia, St. John’s, Virginia and even SLU disagree.

Kansas: ZERO JUCOs on their current roster, and haven't signed one since Wojo took over
Louisiville: 1 JUCO in current recruiting class, prior to him they haven't signed a single JUCO since Wojo took over
Florida State: Recruited 7 JUCOs since Wojo took over. 4 averaged around 11 minutes a game for their careers (highest was 12 lowest was 9), 1 averaged less than 6 minutes a game for his career, 1 literally never saw the court, and the last hasn't played a game yet (start next season).
Georgia: Hasn't made it to the NCAA tournament since Wojo's first year. 3 JUCOs in current recruiting class, prior to those three, recruited 1 JUCO who averaged 10 minutes a game for his career
St. John's: Three losing seasons and one appearance in Dayton since Wojo took over. Have recruited 5 JUCOs since Wojo took over, 2 of which started at D1 level and went to JUCO rather than sit out a year after transfering. 1 was a 2 year starter (SJU had a losing record both seasons), 1 Averaged 12 minutes a game for his career, and 1 literally never saw the court
Virginia: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter
SLU: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter....for SLU

So in 7 recruiting classes in the 7 schools you names you found exactly 3 JUCOs who averaged more than 12 minutes a game for their schools and one of those 2 did while playing for a sub-500 high major and another did it for mid-major SLU.

JUCO isn't what it once was. Players used to go there when they were holding out for a D1 offer. Now, they have 353 schools to choose from who will give them a full ride. They can always transfer up if they are good enough. Most of the players who end up in JUCO are there because they weren't good enough to earn a scholarship for a low major team and hope they can play their way up in the JUCO ranks.

There not being a lot of talent in the JUCO ranks isn't a line, it's a verifiable fact. Some coaches, such as Buzz have a niche there and get the cream of the crop. But its a very small pool and the coaches with connections there are going to have the advantage. Wojo has kicked the tires on a few JUCOs but ultimately his recruiting network is in the high school and transfer ranks. BTW, the JUCO whisperer, Buzz has only recruited 1 JUCO at TAMU in 2 classes and recruited only 3 in 5 classes at VT (1 of which never saw the court). I guess VT and TAMU had the "Crowder rule" too?

[MU82]

The "Crowder Rule" as you put it, is part of why Buzz left. There was a lot more to it, most of it having to do with Buzz' need for power, control, and success and less with supporting minority students as you seem to imply.

Yes, JUCOs are disproportionally minority with odds stacked against them. You know what other group is disproportionately minority with the odds stacked against? Every single scholarship player on the men's basketball roster right now. You don't need to recruit JUCOs to fulfill that part of our mission. Those recruits exist by the hundreds in the high school and transfer ranks. Given that MU has been recruiting these students, it seems like that's not your actual grievance. Your grievance is that MU doesn't recruit players who don't qualify academically.

Kansas: ZERO JUCOs on their current roster, and haven't signed one since Wojo took over
Louisiville: 1 JUCO in current recruiting class, prior to him they haven't signed a single JUCO since Wojo took over
Florida State: Recruited 7 JUCOs since Wojo took over. 4 averaged around 11 minutes a game for their careers (highest was 12 lowest was 9), 1 averaged less than 6 minutes a game for his career, 1 literally never saw the court, and the last hasn't played a game yet (start next season).
Georgia: Hasn't made it to the NCAA tournament since Wojo's first year. 3 JUCOs in current recruiting class, prior to those three, recruited 1 JUCO who averaged 10 minutes a game for his career
St. John's: Three losing seasons and one appearance in Dayton since Wojo took over. Have recruited 5 JUCOs since Wojo took over, 2 of which started at D1 level and went to JUCO rather than sit out a year after transfering. 1 was a 2 year starter (SJU had a losing record both seasons), 1 Averaged 12 minutes a game for his career, and 1 literally never saw the court
Virginia: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter
SLU: Has recruited 1 JUCO since Wojo took over and he was a starter....for SLU

So in 7 recruiting classes in the 7 schools you names you found exactly 3 JUCOs who averaged more than 12 minutes a game for their schools and one of those 2 did while playing for a sub-500 high major and another did it for mid-major SLU.

JUCO isn't what it once was. Players used to go there when they were holding out for a D1 offer. Now, they have 353 schools to choose from who will give them a full ride. They can always transfer up if they are good enough. Most of the players who end up in JUCO are there because they weren't good enough to earn a scholarship for a low major team and hope they can play their way up in the JUCO ranks.

There not being a lot of talent in the JUCO ranks isn't a line, it's a verifiable fact. Some coaches, such as Buzz have a niche there and get the cream of the crop. But its a very small pool and the coaches with connections there are going to have the advantage. Wojo has kicked the tires on a few JUCOs but ultimately his recruiting network is in the high school and transfer ranks. BTW, the JUCO whisperer, Buzz has only recruited 1 JUCO at TAMU in 2 classes and recruited only 3 in 5 classes at VT (1 of which never saw the court). I guess VT and TAMU had the "Crowder rule" too?

Outstanding series of facts here, TAMU.

There is plenty to go after Wojo for without attacking him for nothing, and plenty to criticize MU honchos for without making stuff up.

[cheebs09]

I thought part of the Juco rules was to get ahead of the NCAA APR rules. Schools were starting to get banned from the NCAA tournament due to low scores. Juco’s were at a disadvantage at MU because of credits not transferring as easily, and making it tougher to be on track to graduate. Which would then cause hits to the APR scores when they left since they couldn’t reasonably graduate in 2 years.

[Dr. Blackheart]

TAMU,

Appreciate the balanced response.  However, let’s level set your version of the facts.

Scott Pilarz had a stated university goal of improving The USNews standing.  It was in the university’s strategic plan.  I have glad the the current administration is now laughing at it, and have backtracked up much of that stupidity. Pilarz also publically stated we can wrong a basketball program like SLU and still be successful.  I am glad the BOT whacked him.

As to JUCO’s, please find the lists from the past two seasons.  The number #1 player was headed to Kansas as well as the other ones I mentioned.

https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2020-junior-college-basketball-player-rankings-top-100
https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2019-juco-basketball-top-100-rankings

As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.  I am sure the New Trier LAX player is in need too...but MU needs to be the difference.  Sorry, an exclusionary rule likely that is institutional racism.  What’s worse, MU now tailgates on these individuals success that the elite refuse to admit.  I encourage you all to watch “It’s a Beautiful Thing”.  More is needed to help these inner-city kids...like MU used too.  But, MU has drifted away from it’s mission.

I also encourage all season ticket holders to direct their donations toward this goal. Why was what used to be allowed and MU was proud of, now not in evidence?  Look in the mirror MU.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Scott Pilarz left the university almost seven years ago. Almost the entire administration has changed since then. I have my seen MU talk about USN&WR ranking related to any strategic goal for years.  And TAMU is right, if it is a goal, they are going about it all wrong.

And you are 100% wrong about Marquette abandoning its mission related to inner city students. You’re reaching that conclusion based on basketball Juco transfers???  🙄🙄🙄

Marquette’s classes have been WAY more diverse the last five years compared to the five years prior. More first generation too.

https://www.marquette.edu/institutional-research-analysis/interactive-reports/freshman-dash.php

[Pakuni]

As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.

Meet soccer player Matheus Pereira. who came to Marquette this year from Marshalltown Community College.

https://gomarquette.com/sports/mens-soccer/roster/matheus-pereira/5255

FWIW, it's a bad, cliched argument to claim JUCOs are "inner-city" kids. Jimmy Butler comes from a town of about 10,000. Jae Crowder comes from a metropolis of about 4,000.
In the meantime, MU in recent years has recruited no lack of kids from the actual inner city, i.e. Theo John, Sacar Anim, Greg Elliott, Ed Morrow.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU,

Appreciate the balanced response.  However, let’s level set your version of the facts.

Scott Pilarz had a stated university goal of improving The USNews standing.  It was in the university’s strategic plan.  I have glad the the current administration is now laughing at it, and have backtracked up much of that stupidity. Pilarz also publically stated we can wrong a basketball program like SLU and still be successful.  I am glad the BOT whacked him.

Both of these are very different points from your original post. Mentioning USNWR in a strategic plan is very different from everything being about improving USNWR at the expense of minority students. I'd estimate well over half of university strategic plans in the country mention USNWR in their strategic plans. As flawed as the metric can be, students, parents, and some alumni and employers consider it to be the gold standard. And saying we can be successful is different from aspiring to be SLU. Also, as you point out, the man got canned. He hasn't been here since Wojo took over.

TAMU,
As to JUCO’s, please find the lists from the past two seasons.  The number #1 player was headed to Kansas as well as the other ones I mentioned.

https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2020-junior-college-basketball-player-rankings-top-100
https://www.jucorecruiting.com/2019-juco-basketball-top-100-rankings

Mea culpa, I did miss this one. Still adding one to the list doesn't really change my overall impression. And we will see how many minutes he ends up earning this season (assuming there is a season. #1 JUCOs are usually pretty good bet, but it's not uncommon for top 10 JUCOs to end up as role players or worse. Last year's #2 ended up averaging about 21 minutes a game....for Missouri State. Though the rest of the top 10 played some decent minutes for lower level high majors and mid-majors. Again, it's not that there are zero Big East ready JUCOs, its that the pool is very small.

As to the JUCO rule, McKay was the last JUCO be admitted in ANY sport if I recall lately.  Not a single one in any sport.  I am sure the New Trier LAX player is in need too...but MU needs to be the difference.  Sorry, an exclusionary rule likely that is institutional racism.  What’s worse, MU now tailgates on these individuals success that the elite refuse to admit.  I encourage you all to watch “It’s a Beautiful Thing”.  More is needed to help these inner-city kids...like MU used too.  But, MU has drifted away from it’s mission.

I also encourage all season ticket holders to direct their donations toward this goal. Why was what used to be allowed and MU was proud of, now not in evidence?  Look in the mirror MU.

There is no exclusionary rule other not taking players who can't qualify academically. That impacts JUCOs, high school students, and regular transfers (doubt it impacts grad transfers but not sure). Yes, there is a disparate impact on JUCOs because many of JUCOs choose to major in Phy. Ed. which MU doesn't have a program in so their credits don't transfer. I'm all for relooking at MU's transfer policies but there is nothing wrong with recruiting athletes who qualify academically. For every Big East ready JUCO who doesn't qualify academically from disadvantaged background there are over a dozen Big East ready athletes who do qualify academically from equally disadvantaged backgrounds. Why is it necessary to take athletes who don't academically qualify to fulfill our mission?

As for you assertion about the other sports, I honestly can't speak to them as I don't follow them as closely. But I'd ask, how many JUCO transfer swimmers were we recruiting prior to the so called "Crowder Rule"? How many JUCO transfer women's basketball players? How many JUCO transfer volleyball players? I don't know what the JUCO markets are like in those sports. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the men's basketball team was the only where we recruited a significant number of JUCOs.

I agree with your general thesis that MU can and should be doing more to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I actually think MU has been doing a better job recruiting these students during the Lovell era but I wish they would spend more on supporting them once they are here. But I don't think the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball is evidence that they have gone away from their mission.

[muwarrior69]

Both of these are very different points from your original post. Mentioning USNWR in a strategic plan is very different from everything being about improving USNWR at the expense of minority students. I'd estimate well over half of university strategic plans in the country mention USNWR in their strategic plans. As flawed as the metric can be, students, parents, and some alumni and employers consider it to be the gold standard. And saying we can be successful is different from aspiring to be SLU. Also, as you point out, the man got canned. He hasn't been here since Wojo took over.

Mea culpa, I did miss this one. Still adding one to the list doesn't really change my overall impression. And we will see how many minutes he ends up earning this season (assuming there is a season. #1 JUCOs are usually pretty good bet, but it's not uncommon for top 10 JUCOs to end up as role players or worse. Last year's #2 ended up averaging about 21 minutes a game....for Missouri State. Though the rest of the top 10 played some decent minutes for lower level high majors and mid-majors. Again, it's not that there are zero Big East ready JUCOs, its that the pool is very small.


There is no exclusionary rule other not taking players who can't qualify academically. That impacts JUCOs, high school students, and regular transfers (doubt it impacts grad transfers but not sure). Yes, there is a disparate impact on JUCOs because many of JUCOs choose to major in Phy. Ed. which MU doesn't have a program in so their credits don't transfer. I'm all for relooking at MU's transfer policies but there is nothing wrong with recruiting athletes who qualify academically. For every Big East ready JUCO who doesn't qualify academically from disadvantaged background there are over a dozen Big East ready athletes who do qualify academically from equally disadvantaged backgrounds. Why is it necessary to take athletes who don't academically qualify to fulfill our mission?

As for you assertion about the other sports, I honestly can't speak to them as I don't follow them as closely. But I'd ask, how many JUCO transfer swimmers were we recruiting prior to the so called "Crowder Rule"? How many JUCO transfer women's basketball players? How many JUCO transfer volleyball players? I don't know what the JUCO markets are like in those sports. But I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the men's basketball team was the only where we recruited a significant number of JUCOs.

I agree with your general thesis that MU can and should be doing more to help students from disadvantaged backgrounds. I actually think MU has been doing a better job recruiting these students during the Lovell era but I wish they would spend more on supporting them once they are here. But I don't think the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball is evidence that they have gone away from their mission.

Why is that? Phys. Ed. too expensive? I'm sure some some soccer, volley ball and other student athletes would choose to major if given the opportunity.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Why is that?

Why do JUCOs major in phy ed?  Oftentimes they are directed in that way by coaches who teach in the department. 

Why doesn't Marquette have a phy ed major?  Has it ever?

Why don't the credits transfer?  They most likely do as a general credit, but they don't count toward a specific graduation requirement.

[mileskishnish72]

Nice back and forth, Dr. B and TAMU, with some contributions from Fluff. Love seeing articulate discussion of MU hoops, with factual presentations and no ad hominem attacks.

The discussion got me to thinking: is there a record of who has graduated and who has not? If so, it might be germane to the points dealt with above. I know that at one point several years ago, MU had a 100% rating by one agency. I suspect that that has changed. If the information is available somewhere, I'd appreciate knowing the site.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Yeah!  Marquette leading again in being the difference.

[Coleman]

"George came into my office," recalled [Hank] Raymonds. "Al was not in town at the time. I asked him, 'What do you want to do, George?' So, I sent him to Father [Raymond] McAuley. And then I got a hold of McAuley and I told him that George was coming over. I said, 'If you lie to him, father, Al and I are gone.' Al comes back later and met with the players in the early morning hours."



Al and Hank were so awesome.

Cool story.

[rocket surgeon]

I'm sure this is true in some cases but I think you would be surprised by the number of people who would have supported the players in 1968 but are threatening a boycott over BLM patches now. When it comes to social issues, the political spectrum has been moving steadily to the left for hundreds of years. Some people's believes move with the shifting political spectrum. Others stay consistent their entire lives. Those people go from being progressive in the 1960s to moderate in the 1980s to conservative in the 2000s, to far right in 2020. Their beliefs haven't changed at all, but what society sees as progressive and what it sees as tradition has changed dramatically over the past 60 years. Today's social moderates are tomorrow's social conservatives. My wife and I and have often mused about what social justice issues will be at the forefront in the future and have wondered if we won't be able to support them because that's not how we were raised.

I'm really trying to avoid making this a left/right, good/bad, type post. Just an observation I've made in my short time. I realize that I'm flirting with the political line so I will self impose a ban until tomorrow. I hope its enough to satisfy the mods so they don't try to take away any of my scholarships or cut my recruiting hours.

  this was a fantastic post tamu-seriously one of the best i have read.  now you can correct me if i'm wrong and i am also not trying to push this into the political spectrum either, but feel the need to ask to clarify your point-wouldn't JFK 1960's be exhibit A? 

 one other observation-my memories of father raynor were all good, but then again, as someone else had mentioned here, alcohol and girls were #'s 1, 2 & 3 on the top 5.  because fr raynor so well respected as a jesuit, a leader and a human being, and once again, i stand to be corrected if i'm off here, but his statement-

   "This university will not be governed by coercion, nor will it respond to rash and loosely conceived program demands of such groups."

   would get his ass kicked today.  i am glad however, cooler heads prevailed and trusted him when he, as warrior joe stated, promised to form a broadly represented committee to work toward the demands being made

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

No one is coercing the University today so I guess I don’t understand your point.