Wojo to Duke odds

[HutchwasClutch]

Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.

Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn't. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in '97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in '96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year's tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you're correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn't bottom out like Deane's last.   But don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn't come close on.

[Its DJOver]

I like how the person accusing others of picking and choosing is ignoring 4 years of overall data for each coach, and instead is choosing to focus on about a 10 specific game total sample size.

[HutchwasClutch]

I like how the person accusing others of picking and choosing is ignoring 4 years of overall data for each coach, and instead is choosing to focus on about a 10 specific game total sample size.

Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?! 

[wadesworld]

Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?!

What conference was Dean coaching in?

[WarriorDad]

Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn't. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in '97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in '96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year's tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you're correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn't bottom out like Deane's last.   But don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn't come close on.

Deane won with O'Neill's talent, including the NCAA game.  When that talent went away he was exposed.  Deane could not recruit.

[Its DJOver]

Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?!

They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.

[HutchwasClutch]

What conference was Dean coaching in?

I was responding to results of each coaches last 4 years. Period. You're asking a question that's a whole other debate entirely and changing the subject.

[HutchwasClutch]

They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.

Wtf do you want to discuss from November to March that would change anything?  Oh, ok, Wojo's teams collapsed in consecutive years. Deane's teams played their best at the end.

[HutchwasClutch]

They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.

Yo did read btw where I acknowledged Deane's last team bottoming out, right? 

[Its DJOver]

Wtf do you want to discuss from November to March that would change anything?  Oh, ok, Wojo's teams collapsed in consecutive years. Deane's teams played their best at the end.

Are Nov-Feb not part of the bball season?  If you're comparing results wouldn't it make sense to compare entire body of work?  Isn't it a bit ironic that when someone looks at the entire season, and compares 4 years of total data against 4 years of total data, that you tell them not to pick and choose, while at the same time picking 5 conference tournament games plus 1 NCAA tournament game from Deane, against 2 (maybe 3 since you mention 19-20) conference tournament games plus 2 NCAA tournament games from Wojo?

[Its DJOver]

Yo did read btw where I acknowledged Deane's last team bottoming out, right?

I did, but it still makes your comments more than a bit ironic.

[HutchwasClutch]

Deane won with O'Neill's talent, including the NCAA game.  When that talent went away he was exposed.  Deane could not recruit.

Did I not acknowledge already Wojo is a way better recruiter?! 

[WarriorDad]

Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

Say we do go 14-15, it would be the first losing record since his first year after 3 NCAA tournaments in the last 4 years. You would have to factor in who is signed on the recruiting front, but MU is not firing him in that situation barring some scandal.  Two straight years like that?  Yes, but not one.   

[WarriorDad]

Did I not acknowledge already Wojo is a way better recruiter?!

Recruiting is arguably the most important part of the college basketball coach's responsibility.

[HutchwasClutch]

Are Nov-Feb not part of the bball season?  If you're comparing results wouldn't it make sense to compare entire body of work?  Isn't it a bit ironic that when someone looks at the entire season, and compares 4 years of total data against 4 years of total data, that you tell them not to pick and choose, while at the same time picking 5 conference tournament games plus 1 NCAA tournament game from Deane, against 2 (maybe 3 since you mention 19-20) conference tournament games plus 2 NCAA tournament games from Wojo?

Again, what about Nov- Feb (before you threw in March) would you like to present as argument that changes anything? I already played your game and presented the end of season collapses.  Or do you have nothing, except my comments are unsettling to you?

[Its DJOver]

Again, what about Nov- Feb (before you threw in March) would you like to present as argument that changes anything? I already played your game and presented the end of season collapses.  Or do you have nothing, except my comments are unsettling to you?

My whole point is that you're being a hypocrite. 

MU82 presented 4 years of total data for each coach, tournaments included (100+ games each), and concluded the Wojo overall has been better.

You responded to that by accusing him of picking and choosing data.

You then presented a sample size of about a dozen games each, and concluded that Deane overall was better. 

I called you out for being a hypocrite by ignoring the 100+ game sample size and only looking at the dozen game sample size.

If you wanted to say that Deane was better than Wojo has been in March,that's a different argument, but when looking at overall data (Nov-Mar), plus trends, recruiting, and off court issues (or lack thereof), it's difficult to come to the same conclusion that you do.

[MU82]

Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn't. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in '97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in '96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year's tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you're correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn't bottom out like Deane's last.   But don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn't come close on.

Cool. Bring back Mike Deane. He definitely, positively, inarguably had the program going in the right direction. As proof of his 14-15 season in Year 5 after not making the NCAAs the year before.

Further proof that he's a spectacular coach: Not a single P6 school even sniffed him after MU dumped him. And he sucked at both Lamar and Wagner. I think I saw him on the opposite sideline of one of the middle-school girls games I coached last season. Probably trolling for dates.

He was handed a nice roster by his predecessor -- including an outstanding player at the game's most important position, a guy whose name you know well -- and he played in a mediocre conference. From his second season on, every year got worse for him. By Year 5, he was a joke and our program was a laughingstock.

By Wojo's fifth year, our program was on the rise, with 24 wins and a 2nd place finish in the BEast. And then, even though he lost the Hausers and most folks worried that it would kill future recruiting, he signed a top-20 recruiting class. He then made the NCAAs again. I hated the way each season ended, as all Marquette fans should, but neither was 14-15.

But yes, by all means, Coach Creepy was better than Wojo.

I can't believe we're all having this discussion. Again.

[HutchwasClutch]

My whole point is that you're being a hypocrite. 

MU82 presented 4 years of total data for each coach, tournaments included (100+ games each), and concluded the Wojo overall has been better.

You responded to that by accusing him of picking and choosing data.

You then presented a sample size of about a dozen games each, and concluded that Deane overall was better. 

I called you out for being a hypocrite by ignoring the 100+ game sample size and only looking at the dozen game sample size.

If you wanted to say that Deane was better than Wojo has been in March,that's a different argument, but when looking at overall data (Nov-Mar), plus trends, recruiting, and off court issues (or lack thereof), it's difficult to come to the same conclusion that you do.

I argued Deane's on court results were better comparing their last 4 years and that 82's arguments of season results being his words, "identical" is not at all true and leaves out highly relevant information you want to call a sample size and not what happened in the totality of those 4 seasons. I guess you're the arbiter of what counts and what doesn't.  Conference tournaments are not to be counted in evaluating a season apparently because you say so.   I acknowledged where Wojo has been better too.

[MU82]

Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

I would fire him.

Not sure MU will, but I would.

[HutchwasClutch]

Cool. Bring back Mike Deane. He definitely, positively, inarguably had the program going in the right direction. As proof of his 14-15 season in Year 5 after not making the NCAAs the year before.

Further proof that he's a spectacular coach: Not a single P6 school even sniffed him after MU dumped him. And he sucked at both Lamar and Wagner. I think I saw him on the opposite sideline of one of the middle-school girls games I coaches last season. Probably trolling for dates.

He was handed a nice roster by his predecessor -- including an outstanding player at the game's most important position, a guy whose name you know well -- and he played in a mediocre conference. From his second season on, every year got worse for him. By Year 5, he was a joke and our program was a laughingstock.

By Wojo's fifth year, our program was on the rise, with 24 wins and a 2nd place finish in the BEast. And then, even though he lost the Hausers and most folks worried that it would kill future recruiting, he signed a top-20 recruiting class. He then made the NCAAs again. I hated the way each season ended, as all Marquette fans should, but neither was 14-15.

But yes, by all means, Coach Creepy was better than Wojo.

I can't believe we're all having this discussion. Again.

I disagreed and pointed out reasons you're wrong about their last 4 being identical. It was not at all about arguing bring back Deane, I long for the Mike Deane days, etc. I pointed out where you were right about him. But you're argument of identical last 4 was debunked, so change what the argument is. 

[Its DJOver]

I argued Deane's on court results were better comparing their last 4 years and that 82's arguments of season results being his words, "identical" is not at all true and leaves out highly relevant information you want to call a sample size and not what happened in the totality of those 4 seasons. I guess you're the arbiter of what counts and what doesn't.  Conference tournaments are not to be counted in evaluating a season apparently because you say so.   I acknowledged where Wojo has been better too.

I mean, if you only want to look at 1-1 in the tournament vs 0-2, that's fine.  If you want to draw conclusions based on that, that's fine.  When given the choice between making decisions based on a large sample size or a small sample size, I will always choose the large.  You can choose the small if you want, but it will make you a hypocrite when you do that immediately after telling someone else not to pick and choose data.  That's all there is too this, and the fact that you can't see that is a little concerning.

[Lennys Tap]

I'll let you know when if that happens. I'm not a big fan of the hypothetical-situation game.



Can you show some evidence that I was wrong about the national perception of him? Are there a bunch of articles/columns from national media saying he's in over his head, video clips of TV types saying he hasn't done well at Marquette, or anything from his fellow coaches saying anything but positive things about him?

I have no doubt that you're right - the national perception, created by the national press, is very positive toward Wojo. Not particularly accurate (the average Scooper knows a lot more about MU b-ball than the national press), but very positive. Are the media that fawn over him aware of how his record stacks up against his predecessors? They're either dishonest or uninformed. Likely the latter.

[HutchwasClutch]

I mean, if you only want to look at 1-1 in the tournament vs 0-2, that's fine.  If you want to draw conclusions based on that, that's fine.  When given the choice between making decisions based on a large sample size or a small sample size, I will always choose the large.  You can choose the small if you want, but it will make you a hypocrite when you do that immediately after telling someone else not to pick and choose data.  That's all there is too this, and the fact that you can't see that is a little concerning.

Your reading comprehension at what I was arguing is what's concerning.

[Its DJOver]

You're reading comprehension at what I was arguing is what's concerning.

Ahh, know you're losing so you turn to the personal attacks. 

[Herman Cain]

Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.

I subscribe to the Bill Parcells school of thought:

       "You are what Your record says you are "