MUScoop

MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: geps on May 28, 2020, 04:57:37 PM

Title: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: geps on May 28, 2020, 04:57:37 PM
https://www.si.com/college/duke/basketball/end-of-an-era-whos-next-at-duke?utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=si-ncaabb (https://www.si.com/college/duke/basketball/end-of-an-era-whos-next-at-duke?utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_si&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=si-ncaabb)

Seems right
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: BrewCity83 on May 28, 2020, 06:04:59 PM
Why would Duke want Wojo?  He's a terrible coach.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: #UnleashSean on May 28, 2020, 06:12:15 PM
"Meanwhile, over that time, Wojciechowski has won consistently in the Big East " - Winning consistently translates to being under .500  :o
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 28, 2020, 06:13:45 PM
"Meanwhile, over that time, Wojciechowski has won consistently in the Big East " - Winning consistently translates to being under .500  :o

Nope, Chicos says you can't count his first year because of the mess he inherited from Buzz, so you have to throw that out and he's over .500  ::)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Viper on May 28, 2020, 07:06:05 PM
Why would Duke want Wojo?  He's a terrible coach.
crazier stuff has happened. In football, under .500 Kliff Kingsbury goes from Texas Tech to the NFL’s Arizona Cardinals as HC. I guess Duke could take Wojo.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 28, 2020, 07:17:26 PM
BeeJay has a bedder chance of satisfyin' Kate Upton, aina?






#freeBeeJay
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: keefe on May 28, 2020, 07:22:28 PM
Take him. Please.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Newsdreams on May 28, 2020, 08:13:32 PM
BeeJay has a bedder chance of satisfyin' Kate Upton, aina?






#freeBeeJay

#freeBJ2020 hu u now he hasnt
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 28, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
I’d go all out to pry Stevens from the Celtics.  The Coach K family tree is unbelievably underwhelming when they’ve run their own programs.  Brey has been solid, but unspectacular at ND.  Amaker was terrible at Michigan, so hard to believe his success at Harvard translates. 

As for our fair haired lad.....🤣🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 28, 2020, 10:34:14 PM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on May 28, 2020, 10:41:14 PM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.
Well said. Lot of well reasoned arguments. I may not agree 100% but I can appreciate a well written post.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: ZiggysFryBoy on May 28, 2020, 11:54:37 PM
Take him. Please.

The Henny Youngman of coaches, aina?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Shooter McGavin on May 29, 2020, 12:37:47 AM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.

Very good post.  MU is definitely not a laughingstock nationally.  It definitely could be a lot worse. But it is past time to win.  We are starting to fade from relevance every year we don’t do damage in the tournament.   Starting to get the sarcastic “Marquette going to make the NIT this year“ from friends with wry smiles on their faces. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: NorthernDancerColt on May 29, 2020, 01:16:17 AM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.

Another solid post. You have really developed.
You must be working with a posting trainer.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: #UnleashSean on May 29, 2020, 07:05:50 AM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.

Any writer who thinks wojo has done a solid job, has not paid attention to Marquette in the past 20 years.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 29, 2020, 07:16:52 AM
From the outside, from a macro perspective, Wojo is successful.    From a micro perspective, elbows deep,  there is much to kvetch about.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Herman Cain on May 29, 2020, 07:20:03 AM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.
Wojo Performance at the Mike Deane Level

MU has great resources and deserves a better coach than Wojo

Once the bromance with Lovell ends, MU can get back to the business of tracking where we were in the Crean /Buzz era.

Have said for quite some time now the only way to get rid of Wojo is for him to be hired away. Covid screwed the pooch with respect to that potential Wojexit.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 29, 2020, 07:21:24 AM
I think this author for the SI story looked at Wojo’s Wikipedia page for his summary. It’s as superficial as “analysis” can be.

The thought of Wojo coaching a basketball blue blood, that’s what the laughingstock is.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: cheebs09 on May 29, 2020, 07:51:14 AM
I think this author for the SI story looked at Wojo’s Wikipedia page for his summary. It’s as superficial as “analysis” can be.

The thought of Wojo coaching a basketball blue blood, that’s what the laughingstock is.

It’s pretty important to remember SI is not the SI of old. It’s pretty much Bleacher Report articles now. Probably more sophisticated.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 29, 2020, 08:01:41 AM
It’s pretty important to remember SI is not the SI of old. It’s pretty much Bleacher Report articles now. Probably more sophisticated.

It’s embarrassing how bad SI has become
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: THRILLHO on May 29, 2020, 08:50:09 AM
Another solid post. You have really developed.
You must be working with a posting trainer.

Sure, but when someone's posts don't improve Wojo gets the blame for not developing them.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: bilsu on May 29, 2020, 08:56:42 AM
I think any coach would be crazy to take the Duke job when Coach K retires.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: shoothoops on May 29, 2020, 10:27:45 AM
The article doesn't consider anyone outside of the Duke family for the position, which, is a realistic possibility. With that said, unless Wojo makes a couple of 2nd weekend runs very soon, he is not likely going to be as high on the list as a few other Duke coaches here.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on May 29, 2020, 10:38:43 AM
Honestly, none of the coaches listed are qualified for Duke.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 29, 2020, 10:42:37 AM
Why would Duke want Wojo?

FIFY. 

Seriously though, Wojo isn't going to Duke when K retires.  There is no way he is in their top 5 choices. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 29, 2020, 10:46:55 AM
FIFY. 

Seriously though, Wojo isn't going to Duke when K retires.  There is no way he is in their top 5 choices.

Idk, if Coach K wants Wojo, it will be Wojo...if K wants Brey it will be Brey etc. Duke posters without any knowledge of this article, seem pretty convinced it would be Wojo.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 29, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Idk, if Coach K wants Wojo, it will be Wojo...if K wants Brey it will be Brey etc. Duke posters without any knowledge of this article, seem pretty convinced it would be Wojo.

Duke isn't settling for a guy that has 0 NCAA tournament wins.  Maybe if K lasts another 3-5 years and Wojo finally breaks through MAYBE he becomes a legit candidate.  Until then...don't see it all. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Hards Alumni on May 29, 2020, 10:55:24 AM
FIFY. 

Seriously though, Wojo isn't going to Duke when K retires.  There is no way he is in their top 5 choices.

He will 100% be in their top 5.  Politics of the situation demand he is at least mentioned as a finalist.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 29, 2020, 10:57:37 AM
Duke isn't settling for a guy that has 0 NCAA tournament wins.  Maybe if K lasts another 3-5 years and Wojo finally breaks through MAYBE he becomes a legit candidate.  Until then...don't see it all.
So, it has to be Brey?   Amaker, Collins, Wojo...     If Duke wants Wojo, he goes.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: mileskishnish72 on May 29, 2020, 11:02:22 AM
Duke isn't settling for a guy that has 0 NCAA tournament wins.  Maybe if K lasts another 3-5 years and Wojo finally breaks through MAYBE he becomes a legit candidate.  Until then...don't see it all.

100 percent agree.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 29, 2020, 11:05:00 AM
So, it has to be Brey?   Amaker, Collins, Wojo...     If Duke wants Wojo, he goes.

I am not saying Wojo wouldn't take the job. Of course he would.  We've known that since day 1.

Duke can hire pretty much any CBB coach they want outside of a very a select few.  Wojo isn't going to be that guy unless he has a hell of a run in a hurry. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 79Warrior on May 29, 2020, 11:25:05 AM
Duke isn't settling for a guy that has 0 NCAA tournament wins.  Maybe if K lasts another 3-5 years and Wojo finally breaks through MAYBE he becomes a legit candidate.  Until then...don't see it all.

He will be a legit candidate. K really likes him. K lobbied hard for him to get MU job. Like him or not, Wojo will be a candidate and will go if offered.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: GoldenWarrior11 on May 29, 2020, 11:49:39 AM
Just a hunch, but I can envision the next Duke head coach being outside the Coach K tree.  I think many of these candidates, out of respect for Coach K, will allow someone else to take it for a few years before it returns to an alum/disciple. If it’s within next 2-3 years, I could see a Rick Barnes-like hire, a HC with high-level success at multiple institutions, nearing the end of his own career, and from the region, to take it over for 2-3 years, before ultimately returning it to the Coach K tree.

The amount of pressure to win immediately will be impossible to satisfy. If Duke is not careful, they could turn into Indiana.

Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorPride68 on May 29, 2020, 12:09:32 PM
Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette.

well, considered me sold!
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 29, 2020, 12:59:45 PM
well, considered me sold!

I wasn't trying to sell you or anybody else on anything.

All I was saying is that we all see Marquette differently than those with no MU rooting interest do. To them, Wojo's record the last 4 years looks good compared to most coaches not at blueblood or near-blueblood schools. He has recruited well, he has gotten to the NCAA tournament in 3 of the 4 years (if this one is included), etc.

I'm not even saying we should agree with that. Indeed, I said I'm no longer satisfied with our progress under Wojo. I'm simply saying he's generally well-respected out there.

And this isn't a unique situation. Right here, we have had many posters talk favorably about Bobby Hurley even though Hurley is not one iota more accomplished than Wojo is. Otzelberger is another one. Brad Underwood.

Those guys might be great coaches at this level ... but there is nothing to suggest that they have been better than Wojo so far or that they ever will be. Shaka was a slam-dunk to be great at this level ... until he wasn't.

It's the backup quarterback syndrome -- some of us want a guy simply because he's not our guy, the one we're sick of.

None of that should prevent MU administration from firing Wojo and hiring somebody else if they feel Wojo can't get the job done. You don't avoid making a move out of fear. You avoid making a move only if you believe in Wojo. So far, it looks like they do.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: marquette20 on May 29, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
Bobby Hurley definitely has an interesting recruiting class coming in this year. A good year and some more problems with the AD could see them splitting apart after this year. Could see that being the perfect situation for a coach in waiting situation at Duke where K is around for a year or too and Hurley is eased into the situation. Could see similar case for Wojo if this is how Coach K wants to slide into retirement. Duke has the money to pay 2 head coaches.

Otherwise I would say Brad Stevens or bust for Duke.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 29, 2020, 01:40:58 PM
Idk, if Coach K wants Wojo, it will be Wojo...if K wants Brey it will be Brey etc. Duke posters without any knowledge of this article, seem pretty convinced it would be Wojo.

I agree, Coach K likely will anoint guy he has hand picked. That’s how it usually works for a coaching legend when leaving on their own terms. Al to Hank. Dean Smith to Guthridge. Heathcoate to Izzo. John Thompson Sr. still is picking Georgetown’s coaches. Ryan wanted Gard and timed his retirement so Gard had to be chosen, at least interim basis where he could prove himself.

No one has any idea what Coach K is thinking, so maybe there’s a chance for Wojo, as insane as that sounds. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 29, 2020, 03:21:27 PM
Duke should hire Brian Wardle
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 29, 2020, 03:32:47 PM
Duke should hire Brian Wardle

I chuckled.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: The Equalizer on May 29, 2020, 05:29:13 PM
Duke isn't settling for a guy that has 0 NCAA tournament wins.  Maybe if K lasts another 3-5 years and Wojo finally breaks through MAYBE he becomes a legit candidate.  Until then...don't see it all.

Ahem . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on May 29, 2020, 05:40:01 PM
Ahem . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski)

Not too concerned with their hire 40 years ago.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 29, 2020, 05:50:15 PM
I wasn't trying to sell you or anybody else on anything.

All I was saying is that we all see Marquette differently than those with no MU rooting interest do. To them, Wojo's record the last 4 years looks good compared to most coaches not at blueblood or near-blueblood schools. He has recruited well, he has gotten to the NCAA tournament in 3 of the 4 years (if this one is included), etc.

I'm not even saying we should agree with that. Indeed, I said I'm no longer satisfied with our progress under Wojo. I'm simply saying he's generally well-respected out there.

And this isn't a unique situation. Right here, we have had many posters talk favorably about Bobby Hurley even though Hurley is not one iota more accomplished than Wojo is. Otzelberger is another one. Brad Underwood.

Those guys might be great coaches at this level ... but there is nothing to suggest that they have been better than Wojo so far or that they ever will be. Shaka was a slam-dunk to be great at this level ... until he wasn't.

It's the backup quarterback syndrome -- some of us want a guy simply because he's not our guy, the one we're sick of.

None of that should prevent MU administration from firing Wojo and hiring somebody else if they feel Wojo can't get the job done. You don't avoid making a move out of fear. You avoid making a move only if you believe in Wojo. So far, it looks like they do.

You're not wrong.  But other fanbases would understandably (and this includes our own) be wary of a coach who watched his two best teams lose six of their last seven games, even if he did make the tournament three of his last four (and got demolished in the two tourney games he played).  There are serious questions that need to be answered as to why that happened, and the shrugs and deflection of a certain segment of our fanbase probably wouldn't fly in the interview room.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 29, 2020, 05:54:14 PM
It is a fascinating dichotomy.  MU fans frustrated and fixated about the finish the last two years.    National writer praising the job Wojo has done at MU and discussing the likelihood he replaces K.   

Can both be right?   
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MUDPT on May 29, 2020, 05:59:17 PM
It is a fascinating dichotomy.  MU fans frustrated and fixated about the finish the last two years.    National writer praising the job Wojo has done at MU and discussing the likelihood he replaces K.   

Can both be right?   

My father is a big Purdue fan and only connection through MU is me.  He watches most of the MU games.  I told at the end of last season that people were getting restless and he was really surprised.  Thoughts on MU are totally different outside of the bubble.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 29, 2020, 06:03:43 PM
It is a fascinating dichotomy.  MU fans frustrated and fixated about the finish the last two years.    National writer praising the job Wojo has done at MU and discussing the likelihood he replaces K.   

Can both be right?   

That's a good question.  If we replicate his results the next six years, will people be impressed?

That's my issue with Wojo.  We have a coach good enough to not get fired, but not good enough to please the fanbase.  He's led the program into a holding pattern.  Something has to give eventually.  I'm not saying Wojo should be fired, but how many years are we going to do this?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 29, 2020, 06:07:30 PM
That's a good question.  If we replicate his results the next six years, will people be impressed?
If we play 5 full uninterrupted seasons and he averages 20+ wins over the next 5 years like he has the last 5 years, then yes.

MU fans see the collapses and the zero tourney wins.   National writers see 102 wins in 4.9 years.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 29, 2020, 06:11:09 PM
If we play 5 full uninterrupted seasons and he averages 20+ wins over the next 5 years like he has the last 5 years, then yes.

MU fans see the collapses and the zero tourney wins.   National writers see 102 wins in 4.9 years.

I think everyone sees that his two best teams dismantled down the stretch.  Again, someone is responsible for that.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 29, 2020, 06:13:52 PM
If we play 5 full uninterrupted seasons and he averages 20+ wins over the next 5 years like he has the last 5 years, then yes.

MU fans see the collapses and the zero tourney wins.   National writers see 102 wins in 4.9 years.

 The problem with National writers and people outside the MU bubble(heck even a lot in the bubble), see the MU program as nothing more than a "decent/Good" program that plays in the Big East. They don't think the ceiling is that high or that they can ever become nationally relevant. In other words, they are kind of an "after thought" in the National landscape...that view shouldn't be what it is.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 29, 2020, 06:23:05 PM
Why is it assumed that MU is.more than that?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 29, 2020, 06:32:26 PM
Why is it assumed that MU is.more than that?

Because they should be..As one example, look where Buzz had the program...a BE title(in the best conference ever assembled), two Sweet 16's and an Elite 8. This didn't happen in the 70's either, this wasn't that long ago..why can't it/shouldn't it be that program again??
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 29, 2020, 06:33:17 PM
Why is it assumed that MU is.more than that?

Because the last two coaches won tournament games and didn't collapse down the stretch with their best teams.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Elonsmusk on May 29, 2020, 07:06:28 PM
He will be a legit candidate. K really likes him. K lobbied hard for him to get MU job. Like him or not, Wojo will be a candidate and will go if offered.

I agree with this.  Which also makes the original hire questionable.  This upcoming season will be a pivotal one for Wojo - if it happens.  He lucked out some this past season with the tournament getting cancelled, as all signs pointed toward another first round exit. 

Let's see what Wojo can do without a two-time All-American who was as ball/shot dominant as there has ever been at the high major level.  Perhaps we play better team ball.  Or, perhaps Wojo gets totally exposed.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 29, 2020, 07:30:34 PM
I agree with this.  Which also makes the original hire questionable.  This upcoming season will be a pivotal one for Wojo - if it happens.  He lucked out some this past season with the tournament getting cancelled, as all signs pointed toward another first round exit. 

Let's see what Wojo can do without a two-time All-American who was as ball/shot dominant as there has ever been at the high major level.  Perhaps we play better team ball.  Or, perhaps Wojo gets totally exposed.

I honestly think this year is when we find out what kind of Coach Wojo really is. Let's see what he does.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: NorthernDancerColt on May 29, 2020, 07:55:54 PM
Why is it assumed that MU is.more than that?


Some people see things as they are and ask WHY?
Others see things as they could be and ask WHY NOT?!



-Robert F. Kennedy
(borrowing from JFK who borrowed from George Bernard Shaw)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 4everwarriors on May 29, 2020, 09:10:59 PM
Ax knot watt yur coach kan due four yur skool, ax watt yur skool kan due four yur coach, aina?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Viper on May 30, 2020, 04:28:37 AM
We all have tunnel vision when it comes to MU hoops, and for good reason. We all desperately want to win big again, and then to stay on top for years and years. Nothing wrong with that, obviously.

I wish Wojo had done better to date. I gave him a lot of rope, and I still don't blame him exclusively for our program not getting at least back to Buzz level, but he is the man in charge and the buck needs to stop with him. Although I still defend him sometimes from what I feel are baseless attacks, I am no longer a solid "projo." It's time for him to win. Hell, it's past time.

Having said all that ...

Take a good look at that SI article. It was filled with praise for Wojo. The author thinks Wojo is doing a fine job at Marquette. And based on what I've seen and read over the past few years from those outside the MU universe -- and I consider Scoop to very much be inside the MU universe -- that writer's view is pretty typical.

Many of us are down on Wojo to varying degrees because we are very close to the situation and we want to win big. But those who think Wojo has turned Marquette into some kind of national laughingstock ... I simply think those Scoopers have too much tunnel vision to have even one iota of objectivity. Based on evidence I've seen, Wojo seems pretty well-respected.

Oh, and I doubt he would have been able to land the recruiting class he did if the national perception of him was that he was running a joke of a program.
the problem is, many folks outside the program have no clue. They have a perception, which isn’t reality. Or, they ‘know’ a guy, then state an opinion off that. Maybe Scoopers struggle with objectivity, but those on the outside struggle with reality.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 30, 2020, 08:02:52 AM
the problem is, many folks outside the program have no clue. They have a perception, which isn’t reality. Or, they ‘know’ a guy, then state an opinion off that. Maybe Scoopers struggle with objectivity, but those on the outside struggle with reality.

Well said and correct. I’m not about to take seriously opinions about our program from people like this glorified Duke blogger on SI.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 30, 2020, 08:13:14 AM
Instagram posts like the one he just made make him even more desirable for Duke.   And the nationwide perception is always going to be the 102 wins in 5 years.   

This is like the inverse of when people felt that MU wasn't getting the proper respect nationally.   Now the argument is the coach is getting too much respect nationally.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: wadesworld on May 30, 2020, 08:19:06 AM
“Why would I ever listen to somebody who doesn’t have a vested interest. I know better and Wojo sucks!”

If there were articles from the exact same source saying Wojo sucked people would be touting it as the Gospel according to Jesus Christ himself.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 30, 2020, 08:26:35 AM
“Why would I ever listen to somebody who doesn’t have a vested interest. I know better and Wojo sucks!”

If there were articles from the exact same source saying Wojo sucked people would be touting it as the Gospel according to Jesus Christ himself.

This is correct and it isn’t only on this topic on this message board.  We all use sources to validate our beliefs.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: wadesworld on May 30, 2020, 08:31:00 AM
This is correct and it isn’t only on this topic on this message board.  We all use sources to validate our beliefs.

Except for you. The person screaming about how we need to get away from partisanship...while also screaming he’s never voted for anything but a democrat in his entire life. You just look for facts. Doesn’t matter which side, look at all the sides. No need for validation. Just the truth for you.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 30, 2020, 10:08:50 AM
You're not wrong.  But other fanbases would understandably (and this includes our own) be wary of a coach who watched his two best teams lose six of their last seven games, even if he did make the tournament three of his last four (and got demolished in the two tourney games he played).  There are serious questions that need to be answered as to why that happened, and the shrugs and deflection of a certain segment of our fanbase probably wouldn't fly in the interview room.

I wasn't saying our fans shouldn't be "wary" of Wojo. I wonder if he is our long-term solution myself, and I was a pretty strong "projo" until fairly recently. But as you know, that wasn't the point I was making, and I appreciate you saying I wasn't wrong.

the problem is, many folks outside the program have no clue. They have a perception, which isn’t reality. Or, they ‘know’ a guy, then state an opinion off that. Maybe Scoopers struggle with objectivity, but those on the outside struggle with reality.

Perhaps, but it isn't just "some blogger SI is using." It is Bilas. It is Bardo. It is Jay Wright. It is other national media and/or basketball people. Each observer's opinion can be dismissed for one reason or another ("Bilas loves all Dookies," etc) by those who want to dismiss. But I believe, based on what I have read and heard, that Wojo is pretty well-regarded nationally by people who know basketball.

Doesn't mean Scoopers have to agree. I am not saying that at all. But we have many folks who quickly say "I wish Coach So-and-so was our guy," even though that guy might have proven no more than Wojo has as a P6 head coach. Again, it's the human tendency to want whatever we don't have.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 30, 2020, 10:17:00 AM
I wasn't saying our fans shouldn't be "wary" of Wojo. I wonder if he is our long-term solution myself, and I was a pretty strong "projo" until fairly recently. But as you know, that wasn't the point I was making, and I appreciate you saying I wasn't wrong.

Perhaps, but it isn't just "some blogger SI is using." It is Bilas. It is Bardo. It is Jay Wright. It is other national media and/or basketball people. Each observer's opinion can be dismissed for one reason or another ("Bilas loves all Dookies," etc) by those who want to dismiss. But I believe, based on what I have read and heard, that Wojo is pretty well-regarded nationally by people who know basketball.

Doesn't mean Scoopers have to agree. I am not saying that at all. But we have many folks who quickly say "I wish Coach So-and-so was our guy," even though that guy might have proven no more than Wojo has as a P6 head coach. Again, it's the human tendency to want whatever we don't have.

I wouldn’t put much stock into Jay Wright saying that.  Bobby Knight used to praise Steve Yoder all the time, too
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Elonsmusk on May 30, 2020, 10:23:48 AM
Instagram posts like the one he just made make him even more desirable for Duke.   And the nationwide perception is always going to be the 102 wins in 5 years.   

This is like the inverse of when people felt that MU wasn't getting the proper respect nationally.   Now the argument is the coach is getting too much respect nationally.

Pretty funny.... and true Tower.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: cheebs09 on May 30, 2020, 10:38:52 AM
I think Wojo thought to be a leading candidate for Duke shows a little of how unsuccessful the Coach K tree has been. When talking Wojo replacements, we talk about people with MU/Wisconsin ties. For Duke, it’s natural to look at Coach K/Duke ties. There’s not really a Coach with Duke ties tearing up the NCAA.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on May 30, 2020, 10:43:47 AM
I think Wojo thought to be a leading candidate for Duke shows a little of how unsuccessful the Coach K tree has been. When talking Wojo replacements, we talk about people with MU/Wisconsin ties. For Duke, it’s natural to look at Coach K/Duke ties. There’s not really a Coach with Duke ties tearing up the NCAA.
+1,000
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 30, 2020, 11:55:31 AM
I wouldn’t put much stock into Jay Wright saying that.  Bobby Knight used to praise Steve Yoder all the time, too

I agree, Rico.

If it were just Bilas or just Wright or just "this SI blogger" or just one or two people, I'd dismiss all of them. But I think it's pretty hard to find a national basketball "voice" saying, "Wojciechowski's program at Marquette has become a laughingstock." Much more likely to say he's doing a good job.

And again, I'm not saying we here have to agree with that ... though I also don't believe his record the last 4 years makes us a laughingstock or even a mediocrity. I just want more, as a Marquette fan.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: willie warrior on May 30, 2020, 04:52:20 PM
Take him. Please.
Yes, and take the dead green horse he rode in on, as well as his power point.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: warriorjoe on May 30, 2020, 06:51:42 PM
I was a longtime subscriber to SI, but decided to stop subscribing three years ago. Instead of reading SI or ESPN, The Magazine, I am catching up on reading books that have sat on my shelf for a while.

In addition to great reporting on the championships and sports seasons, Sports Illustrated featured some of the best writers I have ever read in my lifetime: George Plimpton, Robert W. Creamer, Roy Blunt, Dan Jenkins, Kurt Vonnegut, Ron Fimrite, Frank Deford, Gary Smith, Jack McCallum, William Nack, Jackie McMullan, and even our own Steve Rushin.

Unfortunately, the magazine's pieces today seem to be drive by agendas. I guess the days of "Just the facts, ma'am" reporting are over.

Sports Illustrated, once America's best written sports magazine.

May SI rest in peace.

Go Warriors!
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 30, 2020, 07:00:53 PM
Yes, and take the dead green horse he rode in on, as well as his power point.

Thanks, Willie
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 07:40:16 PM
I wasn't saying our fans shouldn't be "wary" of Wojo. I wonder if he is our long-term solution myself, and I was a pretty strong "projo" until fairly recently. But as you know, that wasn't the point I was making, and I appreciate you saying I wasn't wrong.

Oh, I understand that you wonder if he's our long term solution as well.  Question, though: How would you feel if the next six years played out just like the first six?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 30, 2020, 09:29:57 PM
I wasn't saying our fans shouldn't be "wary" of Wojo. I wonder if he is our long-term solution myself, and I was a pretty strong "projo" until fairly recently. But as you know, that wasn't the point I was making, and I appreciate you saying I wasn't wrong.

Perhaps, but it isn't just "some blogger SI is using." It is Bilas. It is Bardo. It is Jay Wright. It is other national media and/or basketball people. Each observer's opinion can be dismissed for one reason or another ("Bilas loves all Dookies," etc) by those who want to dismiss. But I believe, based on what I have read and heard, that Wojo is pretty well-regarded nationally by people who know basketball.

Doesn't mean Scoopers have to agree. I am not saying that at all. But we have many folks who quickly say "I wish Coach So-and-so was our guy," even though that guy might have proven no more than Wojo has as a P6 head coach. Again, it's the human tendency to want whatever we don't have.

Mike

MU had 4 coaches over a 25 year period prior to Wojo. Even when you give Wojo a mulligan for year#1 here is where Wojo stands in a 5 man race:

Overall winning % :  4th, ahead of only KO, who inherited the worst MU program in 60 years.
Conference winning % : 5th (last)
NCAA tournament wins : 5th (last)

The previous four coaches had a combined conference winning % of .645. Even tossing out Wojo’s first year his conference winning % is over 100 points lower (.528).

The previous four coaches all won games in the NCAA tournament, totally 16 wins. They made the final 32 3 times, the S16 3 times, the E8 1 time and the FF one time. Wojo hasn’t won a game in the tourney.

KO, Crean and Buzz all won conference regular season titles. Deane won a conference tournament title. Zip for Wojo.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that our program has declined under Wojo. I’m not saying that his underperformance should be fireable, but the idea that being the 5th most successful MU coach (out of 5) over the last 25 years is a resume’ builder for the Duke job is laughable. Maybe K anoints him, but he certainly hasn’t earned it.

Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 30, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
Oh, I understand that you wonder if he's our long term solution as well.  Question, though: How would you feel if the next six years played out just like the first six?

I'll let you know when if that happens. I'm not a big fan of the hypothetical-situation game.

Mike

MU had 4 coaches over a 25 year period prior to Wojo. Even when you give Wojo a mulligan for year#1 here is where Wojo stands in a 5 man race:

Overall winning % :  4th, ahead of only KO, who inherited the worst MU program in 60 years.
Conference winning % : 5th (last)
NCAA tournament wins : 5th (last)

The previous four coaches had a combined conference winning % of .645. Even tossing out Wojo’s first year his conference winning % is over 100 points lower (.528).

The previous four coaches all won games in the NCAA tournament, totally 16 wins. They made the final 32 3 times, the S16 3 times, the E8 1 time and the FF one time. Wojo hasn’t won a game in the tourney.

KO, Crean and Buzz all won conference regular season titles. Deane won a conference tournament title. Zip for Wojo.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that our program has declined under Wojo. I’m not saying that his underperformance should be fireable, but the idea that being the 5th most successful MU coach (out of 5) over the last 25 years is a resume’ builder for the Duke job is laughable. Maybe K anoints him, but he certainly hasn’t earned it.



OK, Lenny. I understand why you and others (including me, to a degree) are unsatisfied with Wojo. And I never said one thing about him being a legit candidate to replace K; like you, I  doubt he'd be high on their list.

None of that was what either of my previous posts were about.

Can you show some evidence that I was wrong about the national perception of him? Are there a bunch of articles/columns from national media saying he's in over his head, video clips of TV types saying he hasn't done well at Marquette, or anything from his fellow coaches saying anything but positive things about him?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 10:05:35 PM
Mike

MU had 4 coaches over a 25 year period prior to Wojo. Even when you give Wojo a mulligan for year#1 here is where Wojo stands in a 5 man race:

Overall winning % :  4th, ahead of only KO, who inherited the worst MU program in 60 years.
Conference winning % : 5th (last)
NCAA tournament wins : 5th (last)

The previous four coaches had a combined conference winning % of .645. Even tossing out Wojo’s first year his conference winning % is over 100 points lower (.528).

The previous four coaches all won games in the NCAA tournament, totally 16 wins. They made the final 32 3 times, the S16 3 times, the E8 1 time and the FF one time. Wojo hasn’t won a game in the tourney.

KO, Crean and Buzz all won conference regular season titles. Deane won a conference tournament title. Zip for Wojo.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that our program has declined under Wojo. I’m not saying that his underperformance should be fireable, but the idea that being the 5th most successful MU coach (out of 5) over the last 25 years is a resume’ builder for the Duke job is laughable. Maybe K anoints him, but he certainly hasn’t earned it.

+1,00,000.

This is the best summation of those of us who are disappointed in Wojo.  He's certainly not bad, but we've obviously seen better.  And it's completely reasonable to ask at this point, is he going to get better?  And if you say yes, how long are you willing to kick the can down the road?  If Carton doesn't get a waiver, frankly, we're screwed.  Can we judge Wojo if so?  There are people like Cheeks/WarriorDad/Ahole and Wades who will defend Wojo at every turn.

We used to win tourney games.  Now we're bragging about making it (and getting humiliated).  Until that changes, the Projos have nothing to defend.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 10:07:33 PM
I'll let you know when if that happens. I'm not a big fan of the hypothetical-situation game.

Zero tourney wins, his two best teams dismantled down the stretch.  Lemme know how you feel about that.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 30, 2020, 10:21:43 PM
Zero tourney wins, his two best teams dismantled down the stretch.  Lemme know how you feel about that.

I felt bad about it. That's why I am no longer a projo, capiche?

That actually happened. I am not going to play, "What if such-and-such happens?" It's silly.

I mean ... OK, SOS, what if over the next 6 years Wojo makes 5 NCAA tourneys, gets to the E8 once and the S16 three times, and wins a couple of Big East titles? Lemme know how you feel about that.

I actually already know your response: He won't because he sucks.

Cool.

It also isn't what my previous posts were about.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 10:31:04 PM
I felt bad about it. That's why I am no longer a projo, capiche?

That actually happened. I am not going to play, "What if such-and-such happens?" It's silly.

I mean ... OK, SOS, what if over the next 6 years Wojo makes 5 NCAA tourneys, gets to the E8 once and the S16 three times, and wins a couple of Big East titles? Lemme know how you feel about that.

I actually already know your response: He won't because he sucks.

Cool.

It also isn't what my previous posts were about.

I would be stoked, actually.  But he obviously didn't his first six years. He got humiliated in the tournament twice, and considering he made the NIT once he had all his guys (which I was told constantly was the issue the first three years:  Buzz left the cupboard empty!)...yeah, color me unimpressed.

All the things the Projos admire about him has to add up to something. When?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 30, 2020, 10:34:26 PM
+1,00,000.

This is the best summation of those of us who are disappointed in Wojo.  He's certainly not bad, but we've obviously seen better.  And it's completely reasonable to ask at this point, is he going to get better?  And if you say yes, how long are you willing to kick the can down the road?  If Carton doesn't get a waiver, frankly, we're screwed.  Can we judge Wojo if so?  There are people like Cheeks/WarriorDad/Ahole and Wades who will defend Wojo at every turn.

We used to win tourney games.  Now we're bragging about making it (and getting humiliated).  Until that changes, the Projos have nothing to defend.


Am I allowed to ask a few questions that to this day no one on your side has answered.  Why not?

According to insiders here over the two years I have been here, Coach Buzz Williams left because he was told he could no longer recruit certain players (fiercer academic restrictions).

Is this true?

If it is true, and his last year showed he also couldn't win without recruiting the way he and Coach Crean were allowed to in the past, doesn't that show his success under the same conditions was not great?  In fact, even worse than Wojo has accomplished.  Doesn't that mean Wojo is coaching within a different set of rules and not packing the same ammo as Coach Williams and Coach Crean? 

Logically this must be true because it is repeated here again and again.  Buzz was told not to recruit certain players, Buzz got mad, Buzz couldn't win without recruiting those kids so he left.  But we hold Wojo to a standard that Buzz and Crean were allowed for flexibility and expect the same results? What rationale person would do that?

If Wojo was allowed to recruit the same types of players coach Williams and coach Crean were, then that would be a fair comparison.  But he isn't, according to insiders here.  Yet you want the same results even though he has to fish in a different pond.

Tell me where I am wrong on this?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 30, 2020, 10:37:46 PM
I would be stoked, actually.  But he obviously didn't his first six years. He got humiliated in the tournament twice, and considering he made the NIT once he had all his guys (which I was told constantly was the issue the first three years:  Buzz left the cupboard empty!)...yeah, color me unimpressed.

All the things the Projos admire about him has to add up to something. When?

Why are you trying to debate me when I don't have the view you think I do?

For at least the fifth time, all I said was that national basketball observers seem to think Wojo has done a good job at Marquette. Nobody, including you, has even tried to disprove that.

The rest is just people arguing that Wojo sucks. Cool.

I don't think our program is a "joke" or a "laughingstock," but I am less than satisfied with the direction of the program. I think I've been pretty clear and consistent about that in this thread.
Title: Q
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 10:47:11 PM

Am I allowed to ask a few questions that to this day no one on your side has answered.  Why not?

According to insiders here over the two years I have been here, Coach Buzz Williams left because he was told he could no longer recruit certain players (fiercer academic restrictions).

Is this true?

If it is true, and his last year showed he also couldn't win without recruiting the way he and Coach Crean were allowed to doesn't that mean Wojo is coaching within a different set of rules and not packing the same ammo as Coach Williams and Coach Crean? 

Logically this must be true because it is repeated here again and again.  Buzz was told not to recruit certain players, Buzz got mad, Buzz couldn't win without recruiting those kids so he left.  But we hold Wojo to a standard that Buzz and Crean were allowed for flexibility and expect the same results? What rationale person would do that?

If Wojo was allowed to recruit the same types of players coach Williams and coach Crean were, then that would be a fair comparison.  But he isn't, according to insiders here.  Yet you want the same results even though he has to fish in a different pond.

Tell me where I am wrong on this?

Cheeks, I know your mission is to portray Buzz as a petulant whiner (unlike yourself, obviously).  And hey: I'll agree!

Was he told to not to recruit certain players?  Possibly!  His best team won the Big East and went to the Elite Eight without any JuCos though. Ugh!

Did said team have any McDonald's All Americans? No!  Yikes, wish we had a better recruiter!

Wait...We do?

Heyooo!

Boy, I sure wish Crean and Buzz were allowed to recruit McDonald's All Americans!

Wait, they were?

How did they both accomplish more then?

Weren't sh*tty X's and O's coaches?  No way!

 
Title: Re: Q
Post by: WarriorDad on May 30, 2020, 10:51:01 PM
Cheeks, I know your mission is to portray Buzz as a petulant whiner (unlike yourself, obviously).  And hey: I'll agree!

Was he told to not to recruit certain players?  Possibly!  His best team won the Big East and went to the Elite Eight without any JuCos though. Ugh!

Did said team have any McDonald's All Americans? No!  Yikes, wish we had a better recruiter!

Wait...We do?

Heyooo!

Boy, I sure wish Crean and Buzz were allowed to recruit McDonald's All Americans!

Wait, they were?

How did they both accomplish more then?

Weren't sh*tty X's and O's coaches?  No way!

Apparently you are not a MU insider that has insisted for the past two years he left because he was no longer allowed to go after the type of players he needed.  The restrictions were too great to proceed and was making it difficult, in his mind, to compete.  For Coach Crean, he demanded Dwyane Wade be admitted which also would not happen in the current environment with Wojo.

Since you don't know, maybe one of the experts will answer the question for us based on the countless messages claiming this was one of the reasons coach Williams left the program.  Insiders, please help us with the information.
Title: Re: Q
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 10:54:27 PM
Apparently you are not a MU insider that has insisted for the past two years he left because he was no longer allowed to go after the type of players he needed.  The restrictions were too great to proceed and was making it difficult, in his mind, to compete.  For Coach Crean, he demanded Dwyane Wade be admitted which also would not happen in the current environment with Wojo.

Since you don't know, maybe one of the experts will answer the question for us based on the countless messages claiming this was one of the reasons coach Williams left the program.  Insiders, please help us with the information.

Cool, so Buzz sucks.  Why hasn't Wojo won a tourney game?  Trounced both times, and also complete collapsed the last two years (defend that without pathetically blaming anyone other than the coach).  I know you want to bring every convo back to Buzz since you can't defend Wojo's failures, but Buzz left a long time ago.  Time to judge the guy who is actually in charge, and he has failed everyone but you, who would've defended a wet paper bag after Buzz. Yawn.
Title: Re: Q
Post by: WarriorDad on May 30, 2020, 11:07:10 PM
Cool, so Buzz sucks.  Why hasn't Wojo won a tourney game?  Trounced both times, and also complete collapsed the last two years (defend that without pathetically blaming anyone other than the coach).  I know you want to bring every convo back to Buzz since you can't defend Wojo's failures, but Buzz left a long time ago.  Time to judge the guy who is actually in charge, and he has failed everyone but you, who would've defended a wet paper bag after Buzz. Yawn.

Coach Williams is a great coach.  He doesn't suck.  He won with different rules applied to him by the university than Wojo has.  I'm trying to use information, not emotion like you are.  In the final year of Coach Williams in the same conference Wojo is in and with the same rules, he didn't fare to well.  Fifth place finish, no tournament.  These are facts.  This is despite Coach Williams being a great coach.  Maybe we should relax the rules a bit so Wojo has the same opportunity to fish in the ponds that Crean and Buzz were allowed to?    It's after 11pm, I am tired and heading to bed.  Good talking to you.  We all want Marquette to do well in basketball.
Title: Re: Q
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 30, 2020, 11:17:28 PM
Coach Williams is a great coach.  He doesn't suck.  He won with different rules applied to him by the university than Wojo has.  I'm trying to use information, not emotion like you are.  In the final year of Coach Williams in the same conference Wojo is in and with the same rules, he didn't fare to well.  Fifth place finish, no tournament.  These are facts.  This is despite Coach Williams being a great coach.  Maybe we should relax the rules a bit so Wojo has the same opportunity to fish in the ponds that Crean and Buzz were allowed to?    It's after 11pm, I am tired and heading to bed.  Good talking to you.  We all want Marquette to do well in basketball.

He won with players less regarded than Wojo's.

FACTS:

Buzz: Two Sweet Sixteens, One Elite Eight.

Wojo: Let's talk about something else.

I'm totally with you Cheeks, Buzz bombed his last year.  Definitely deserves the criticism.  But when's the good year going to happen for Wojo?  And I know you're gonna come back with your crapshoot nonsense, but I think if any team is going to have success in the tourney, they're going to have to get a solid seed, right?  Well, we had a solid seed once (#5 seed, hey!) but unfortunately Wojo was derelict in his duty as a leader, and we lost six of our lost seven, then got demolished by a team who got demolished in the next round by a team that got demolished in the next round.  It's fair to judge that and not just punt.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on May 31, 2020, 12:20:51 AM
Bobby Hurley definitely has an interesting recruiting class coming in this year. A good year and some more problems with the AD could see them splitting apart after this year. Could see that being the perfect situation for a coach in waiting situation at Duke where K is around for a year or too and Hurley is eased into the situation. Could see similar case for Wojo if this is how Coach K wants to slide into retirement. Duke has the money to pay 2 head coaches.

Otherwise I would say Brad Stevens or bust for Duke.

Bust isn’t an option when hiring a head coach.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on May 31, 2020, 12:29:57 AM
That's a good question.  If we replicate his results the next six years, will people be impressed?

That's my issue with Wojo.  We have a coach good enough to not get fired, but not good enough to please the fanbase.  He's led the program into a holding pattern.  Something has to give eventually.  I'm not saying Wojo should be fired, but how many years are we going to do this?

How many years?  MU will do it in perpetuity, if we change head coaches at the rate we have been.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 31, 2020, 03:12:19 AM
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Frenns Liquor Depot on May 31, 2020, 06:13:42 AM
How many years?  MU will do it in perpetuity, if we change head coaches at the rate we have been.

I don’t think this is an issue.  Most coaches don’t last more than 6-9 years.   We are about average there
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Galway Eagle on May 31, 2020, 07:12:10 AM
Oh, I understand that you wonder if he's our long term solution as well.  Question, though: How would you feel if the next six years played out just like the first six?

It wouldn't be great but at least we wouldn't fall from relevant either. It'd mean another crappy year, year with solid record and good wins but nothing to brag about. And 4 tournament appearances given that our NIT team would've been a tournament team with the current metrics used in selection. Again, it'd be frustrating to constantly be out in the first round but I won't turn my head away from 4 straight bids and 5 solid years in the next 6 either.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 31, 2020, 07:27:47 AM
If he wins 100+ games the next five years like he has the last 5, he will be at the top of Duke's list.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 31, 2020, 08:24:46 AM
Is Duke even a good job? 8-)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 08:29:13 AM
If he wins 100+ games the next five years like he has the last 5, he will be at the top of Duke's list.

Certainly.  Duke aspires to be a program that wins about 20 games a season. That’s the bar Coach K has set. I’m sure everyone associated with their program will tire of Final Fours, championships, etc. by then.  Human nature to want to regress. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: tower912 on May 31, 2020, 08:48:19 AM
If Wojo averages 20 wins a year at MU, Duke is going to see him as successful and believe that his Duke roots and the Duke mystique will be enough to sustain excellence.   Plus, when looking at the rest of the K tree, a guy averaging 20 wins per year for a decade at a high major will be better than other K acolytes and universally recognized as successful.(except on scoop)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorFan on May 31, 2020, 09:21:09 AM
I honestly believe that the changes coming in Division 1  basketball will be in Wojo's favor. 
The teams and coaches that will struggle are:
a) those that are paying players or playing the game that gets players paid - because the professional options will pay more and without risk
b) those (like Calipari) that don't do any coaching anyway and just roll out the ball with a bunch of talented players

The coaches - like Wojo - who are clean (I sure as heck hope he is) and who get the "next best" guys already know how to play with the new rules. 

Duke administration should be smart enough to see what's coming... maybe MU will as well.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 79Warrior on May 31, 2020, 09:28:47 AM
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.

This is correct.
Title: Re: Q
Post by: willie warrior on May 31, 2020, 09:45:27 AM
He won with players less regarded than Wojo's.

FACTS:

Buzz: Two Sweet Sixteens, One Elite Eight.

Wojo: Let's talk about something else.

I'm totally with you Cheeks, Buzz bombed his last year.  Definitely deserves the criticism.  But when's the good year going to happen for Wojo?  And I know you're gonna come back with your crapshoot nonsense, but I think if any team is going to have success in the tourney, they're going to have to get a solid seed, right?  Well, we had a solid seed once (#5 seed, hey!) but unfortunately Wojo was derelict in his duty as a leader, and we lost six of our lost seven, then got demolished by a team who got demolished in the next round by a team that got demolished in the next round.  It's fair to judge that and not just punt.
This is really pretty easy to figure out, and I have little love for Wojo and less for Buzz. Buzz out performed Wojo easily in terms in winning and NCAA performance, and arguably with less talent. Although Buzz was great at getting JUCO players who became studs, Wojo, overall is a better recruiter, but is much poorer at preparation for games and in game coaching.
So who is/was a better coach? Easily, the down home lonesome cowboy was. If your bag is mediocre bland performance and eternal hope that Wojo with his Dookie pedigree will one day wake up and put it together then he is your boy. Just don't hold your breath. Hope Duke calls when K pastures out because that is where Wojo belongs. He will continue to land big time recruits, even bigger than at MU, but likely will never be near winning like K has. How long will the Dookies live with that? Do not think he will be Dukes top choice based on what he has done so far at MU.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Herman Cain on May 31, 2020, 10:26:26 AM
Mike

MU had 4 coaches over a 25 year period prior to Wojo. Even when you give Wojo a mulligan for year#1 here is where Wojo stands in a 5 man race:

Overall winning % :  4th, ahead of only KO, who inherited the worst MU program in 60 years.
Conference winning % : 5th (last)
NCAA tournament wins : 5th (last)

The previous four coaches had a combined conference winning % of .645. Even tossing out Wojo’s first year his conference winning % is over 100 points lower (.528).

The previous four coaches all won games in the NCAA tournament, totally 16 wins. They made the final 32 3 times, the S16 3 times, the E8 1 time and the FF one time. Wojo hasn’t won a game in the tourney.

KO, Crean and Buzz all won conference regular season titles. Deane won a conference tournament title. Zip for Wojo.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that our program has declined under Wojo. I’m not saying that his underperformance should be fireable, but the idea that being the 5th most successful MU coach (out of 5) over the last 25 years is a resume’ builder for the Duke job is laughable. Maybe K anoints him, but he certainly hasn’t earned it.
When Wojo first came on board, I posted a poll asking whether or not he would better Mike Deanes coaching record. I posted the same poll half way through Wojo's tenure. Now we know for a fact that Wojo has not out performed  Deane.

I Have consistently said that Wojo is a modern day Mike Deane. Wojo comes in a more polished and user friendly package than Deane for sure. However, bottom line, he is at the Deane level of Coaches as far as MU performance is concerned. Deane had an overall D1 coaching record of 412-308 for a .572 winning percentage.

Wojo has a pretty good thing going for his family. He can comfortably stay at MU till retirement and between now and then gross another $40 million or so ( 20 years at $2 Million per year). He has his recruiting strategy well oiled, i.e. basically target borderline 5 stars and offer them the keys to the car right away ( Henry, Markus , Dawson)  . This ensures no disastrous  years and as long as Lovell is the Boss-man life is great.

Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 10:46:21 AM
Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on May 31, 2020, 11:27:55 AM
Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 31, 2020, 12:25:05 PM
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.

Coach Williams is a better coach, and he also was allowed to recruit differently.  He also performed similarly to Wojo in the one year of the same conference Wojo coaches in with the same recruiting restrictions, despite being the better coach.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.

Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn’t. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in ‘97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in ‘96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year’s tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you’re correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn’t bottom out like Deane’s last.   But don’t pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn’t come close on.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 01:33:38 PM
I like how the person accusing others of picking and choosing is ignoring 4 years of overall data for each coach, and instead is choosing to focus on about a 10 specific game total sample size.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:35:14 PM
I like how the person accusing others of picking and choosing is ignoring 4 years of overall data for each coach, and instead is choosing to focus on about a 10 specific game total sample size.

Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?! 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: wadesworld on May 31, 2020, 01:36:34 PM
Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?!

What conference was Dean coaching in?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 31, 2020, 01:38:27 PM
Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn’t. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in ‘97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in ‘96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year’s tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you’re correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn’t bottom out like Deane’s last.   But don’t pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn’t come close on.

Deane won with O’Neill’s talent, including the NCAA game.  When that talent went away he was exposed.  Deane could not recruit.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 01:38:35 PM
Are the tournament runs not part of the overall 4 year data for each coach?!?!

They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:41:59 PM
What conference was Dean coaching in?

I was responding to results of each coaches last 4 years. Period. You’re asking a question that’s a whole other debate entirely and changing the subject.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:44:52 PM
They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.

Wtf do you want to discuss from November to March that would change anything?  Oh, ok, Wojo’s teams collapsed in consecutive years. Deane’s teams played their best at the end.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:47:32 PM
They are, which is why it made sense for 82 to include the tournament data in his overall assessment.  Why you are choosing to ignore data from November through February of every year, plus March data from '98 and '99, while telling someone else to "don't pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative" is the humorous part to me.

Yo did read btw where I acknowledged Deane’s last team bottoming out, right? 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 01:49:14 PM
Wtf do you want to discuss from November to March that would change anything?  Oh, ok, Wojo’s teams collapsed in consecutive years. Deane’s teams played their best at the end.

Are Nov-Feb not part of the bball season?  If you're comparing results wouldn't it make sense to compare entire body of work?  Isn't it a bit ironic that when someone looks at the entire season, and compares 4 years of total data against 4 years of total data, that you tell them not to pick and choose, while at the same time picking 5 conference tournament games plus 1 NCAA tournament game from Deane, against 2 (maybe 3 since you mention 19-20) conference tournament games plus 2 NCAA tournament games from Wojo?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 01:49:57 PM
Yo did read btw where I acknowledged Deane’s last team bottoming out, right?

I did, but it still makes your comments more than a bit ironic.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 01:53:17 PM
Deane won with O’Neill’s talent, including the NCAA game.  When that talent went away he was exposed.  Deane could not recruit.

Did I not acknowledge already Wojo is a way better recruiter?! 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 31, 2020, 01:56:43 PM
Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

Say we do go 14-15, it would be the first losing record since his first year after 3 NCAA tournaments in the last 4 years. You would have to factor in who is signed on the recruiting front, but MU is not firing him in that situation barring some scandal.  Two straight years like that?  Yes, but not one.   
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on May 31, 2020, 01:58:08 PM
Did I not acknowledge already Wojo is a way better recruiter?!

Recruiting is arguably the most important part of the college basketball coach’s responsibility.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 02:00:15 PM
Are Nov-Feb not part of the bball season?  If you're comparing results wouldn't it make sense to compare entire body of work?  Isn't it a bit ironic that when someone looks at the entire season, and compares 4 years of total data against 4 years of total data, that you tell them not to pick and choose, while at the same time picking 5 conference tournament games plus 1 NCAA tournament game from Deane, against 2 (maybe 3 since you mention 19-20) conference tournament games plus 2 NCAA tournament games from Wojo?

Again, what about Nov- Feb (before you threw in March) would you like to present as argument that changes anything? I already played your game and presented the end of season collapses.  Or do you have nothing, except my comments are unsettling to you?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 02:11:05 PM
Again, what about Nov- Feb (before you threw in March) would you like to present as argument that changes anything? I already played your game and presented the end of season collapses.  Or do you have nothing, except my comments are unsettling to you?

My whole point is that you're being a hypocrite. 

MU82 presented 4 years of total data for each coach, tournaments included (100+ games each), and concluded the Wojo overall has been better.

You responded to that by accusing him of picking and choosing data.

You then presented a sample size of about a dozen games each, and concluded that Deane overall was better. 

I called you out for being a hypocrite by ignoring the 100+ game sample size and only looking at the dozen game sample size.

If you wanted to say that Deane was better than Wojo has been in March,that's a different argument, but when looking at overall data (Nov-Mar), plus trends, recruiting, and off court issues (or lack thereof), it's difficult to come to the same conclusion that you do.

Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 02:23:06 PM
Identical? No kidding-

Deane won an NCAA game.  Wojo hasn’t. 

Deane won a conference tournament championship with improbable 4 wins in 4 days in ‘97. That was preceded by OT loss to Cincinnati in ‘96 tournament final.  Wojo has won grand total of two conf. tournament games in last three years and no one honestly believed they had a prayer of beating Seton Hall in this year’s tournament. 

Wojo has recruited and represented university far better. No argument and you’re correct there.  But on court results last 4 years are anything but identical. The only advantage to Wojo is a season that didn’t bottom out like Deane’s last.   But don’t pick and choose what you like to fit your narrative.  Deane reached heights Wojo hasn’t come close on.

Cool. Bring back Mike Deane. He definitely, positively, inarguably had the program going in the right direction. As proof of his 14-15 season in Year 5 after not making the NCAAs the year before.

Further proof that he's a spectacular coach: Not a single P6 school even sniffed him after MU dumped him. And he sucked at both Lamar and Wagner. I think I saw him on the opposite sideline of one of the middle-school girls games I coached last season. Probably trolling for dates.

He was handed a nice roster by his predecessor -- including an outstanding player at the game's most important position, a guy whose name you know well -- and he played in a mediocre conference. From his second season on, every year got worse for him. By Year 5, he was a joke and our program was a laughingstock.

By Wojo's fifth year, our program was on the rise, with 24 wins and a 2nd place finish in the BEast. And then, even though he lost the Hausers and most folks worried that it would kill future recruiting, he signed a top-20 recruiting class. He then made the NCAAs again. I hated the way each season ended, as all Marquette fans should, but neither was 14-15.

But yes, by all means, Coach Creepy was better than Wojo.

I can't believe we're all having this discussion. Again.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 02:23:13 PM
My whole point is that you're being a hypocrite. 

MU82 presented 4 years of total data for each coach, tournaments included (100+ games each), and concluded the Wojo overall has been better.

You responded to that by accusing him of picking and choosing data.

You then presented a sample size of about a dozen games each, and concluded that Deane overall was better. 

I called you out for being a hypocrite by ignoring the 100+ game sample size and only looking at the dozen game sample size.

If you wanted to say that Deane was better than Wojo has been in March,that's a different argument, but when looking at overall data (Nov-Mar), plus trends, recruiting, and off court issues (or lack thereof), it's difficult to come to the same conclusion that you do.

I argued Deane’s on court results were better comparing their last 4 years and that 82’s arguments of season results being his words, “identical” is not at all true and leaves out highly relevant information you want to call a sample size and not what happened in the totality of those 4 seasons. I guess you’re the arbiter of what counts and what doesn’t.  Conference tournaments are not to be counted in evaluating a season apparently because you say so.   I acknowledged where Wojo has been better too.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 02:25:09 PM
Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

I would fire him.

Not sure MU will, but I would.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 02:27:24 PM
Cool. Bring back Mike Deane. He definitely, positively, inarguably had the program going in the right direction. As proof of his 14-15 season in Year 5 after not making the NCAAs the year before.

Further proof that he's a spectacular coach: Not a single P6 school even sniffed him after MU dumped him. And he sucked at both Lamar and Wagner. I think I saw him on the opposite sideline of one of the middle-school girls games I coaches last season. Probably trolling for dates.

He was handed a nice roster by his predecessor -- including an outstanding player at the game's most important position, a guy whose name you know well -- and he played in a mediocre conference. From his second season on, every year got worse for him. By Year 5, he was a joke and our program was a laughingstock.

By Wojo's fifth year, our program was on the rise, with 24 wins and a 2nd place finish in the BEast. And then, even though he lost the Hausers and most folks worried that it would kill future recruiting, he signed a top-20 recruiting class. He then made the NCAAs again. I hated the way each season ended, as all Marquette fans should, but neither was 14-15.

But yes, by all means, Coach Creepy was better than Wojo.

I can't believe we're all having this discussion. Again.

I disagreed and pointed out reasons you’re wrong about their last 4 being identical. It was not at all about arguing bring back Deane, I long for the Mike Deane days, etc. I pointed out where you were right about him. But you’re argument of identical last 4 was debunked, so change what the argument is. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 02:30:08 PM
I argued Deane’s on court results were better comparing their last 4 years and that 82’s arguments of season results being his words, “identical” is not at all true and leaves out highly relevant information you want to call a sample size and not what happened in the totality of those 4 seasons. I guess you’re the arbiter of what counts and what doesn’t.  Conference tournaments are not to be counted in evaluating a season apparently because you say so.   I acknowledged where Wojo has been better too.

I mean, if you only want to look at 1-1 in the tournament vs 0-2, that's fine.  If you want to draw conclusions based on that, that's fine.  When given the choice between making decisions based on a large sample size or a small sample size, I will always choose the large.  You can choose the small if you want, but it will make you a hypocrite when you do that immediately after telling someone else not to pick and choose data.  That's all there is too this, and the fact that you can't see that is a little concerning.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 31, 2020, 02:33:47 PM
I'll let you know when if that happens. I'm not a big fan of the hypothetical-situation game.



Can you show some evidence that I was wrong about the national perception of him? Are there a bunch of articles/columns from national media saying he's in over his head, video clips of TV types saying he hasn't done well at Marquette, or anything from his fellow coaches saying anything but positive things about him?

I have no doubt that you’re right - the national perception, created by the national press, is very positive toward Wojo. Not particularly accurate (the average Scooper knows a lot more about MU b-ball than the national press), but very positive. Are the media that fawn over him aware of how his record stacks up against his predecessors? They’re either dishonest or uninformed. Likely the latter.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: HutchwasClutch on May 31, 2020, 02:34:56 PM
I mean, if you only want to look at 1-1 in the tournament vs 0-2, that's fine.  If you want to draw conclusions based on that, that's fine.  When given the choice between making decisions based on a large sample size or a small sample size, I will always choose the large.  You can choose the small if you want, but it will make you a hypocrite when you do that immediately after telling someone else not to pick and choose data.  That's all there is too this, and the fact that you can't see that is a little concerning.

Your reading comprehension at what I was arguing is what’s concerning.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Its DJOver on May 31, 2020, 02:38:41 PM
You’re reading comprehension at what I was arguing is what’s concerning.

Ahh, know you're losing so you turn to the personal attacks. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Herman Cain on May 31, 2020, 03:09:26 PM
Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.
I subscribe to the Bill Parcells school of thought:

       "You are what Your record says you are "
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: TAMU, Knower of Ball on May 31, 2020, 03:13:07 PM
I subscribe to the Bill Parcells school of thought:

       "You are what Your record says you are "

I agree. Wojo's record is clearly better than Deane's.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 03:16:40 PM
I disagreed and pointed out reasons you’re wrong about their last 4 being identical. It was not at all about arguing bring back Deane, I long for the Mike Deane days, etc. I pointed out where you were right about him. But you’re argument of identical last 4 was debunked, so change what the argument is.

I do not think they are identical. I think Wojo's record is quite a bit better, and I think most P6 ADs/university presidents would agree because they would be MUCH more likely to hire a guy who had Wojo's record than Deane's record.

Obviously, that's an opinion, and like all opinions (including yours), it can't be "proven." But I think it's pretty likely that the one who left on his own with two straight NCAA tourney appearances (and 3 in 4 years) and had just landed a top-20 recruiting class (which would be Wojo if he left today) would be FAR more attractive to other schools than one who was fired after missing the tourney two straight years, including a 14-15 swan song (which was Deane's end at Marquette).

If Wojo had put himself on the market in March, I'm confident he'd have a P6 job. The best Deane could do was Lamar, where he had one winning season in 4 years.

You're totally right that I shouldn't have used hyperbole as I did, Hutch, and I apologize for it.

It was totally unnecessary to make my point.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on May 31, 2020, 03:31:26 PM
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.

But Crowder was a world beater. Could Wojo get a player like him in?  Crean’s best recruit was Wade, so that’s the best players recruited by each coach (apologies to JB) (one a program changer) that I’m thinking Wojo would not be allowed to take.

Wojo has been superior in the overall quality of his high school recruits which I think is how both he and the University like to roll.  This most recent class shows that he’s moving on from reliance on sub 5’11” marksmen to carry his offense.  That’s why I agree that the incoming class will largely determine Wojo’s fate.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 03:36:11 PM
I subscribe to the Bill Parcells school of thought:

       "You are what Your record says you are "

Totally agree. That's why, after the 1982-83 season, Bob Dukiet had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a better coach than Mike Krzyzewski. BD was 81-32 at St. Peter's; K was 47-64 at Army and Duke. Case closed.

Stoopid Dook shoulda fired K and hired Dukiet ... but then we might have gotten stuck with that loser Krzyzewski.

And with Wojo and Deane, it definitely doesn't matter at all that the Big East now is considerably better than Conference USA was when Deane coached at MU. That shouldn't play into it at all. Or that Deane was handed a team that had just gone to the Sweet 16 while Wojo was handed a team that didn't make the postseason at all and had lost 5 of its top 6 scorers.

Yep, you always are what your record says you are: Dukiet was better than K. And, for that matter, Wojo is miles better than Shaka, the guy absolutely everybody (including me) wanted MU to hire, since Shaka landed at Texas. At 102-62 for Wojo vs. 90-78 for Shaka, it's not even close.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on May 31, 2020, 03:39:25 PM
Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

What was the Three Amigo’s record their first year?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on May 31, 2020, 03:45:39 PM
Deane won with O’Neill’s talent, including the NCAA game.  When that talent went away he was exposed.  Deane could not recruit.

A Succinct and to the point Deane eval. Cordell Henry and Mike Bargain were all I can remember from 5 years of his recruiting.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 03:54:27 PM
I have no doubt that you’re right - the national perception, created by the national press, is very positive toward Wojo. Not particularly accurate (the average Scooper knows a lot more about MU b-ball than the national press), but very positive. Are the media that fawn over him aware of how his record stacks up against his predecessors? They’re either dishonest or uninformed. Likely the latter.

First, thanks for agreeing with me on the national perception. You can call it "fawning" or anything else, all I said was that the perception was there. It was everybody else who kept changing the subject, because all they can think of every time they hear Wojo's name is "sucks."

Now, as far as stacking up against his predecessors ...

Lenny, do you honestly believe the AD at, say, Oklahoma State or USC or Wake Forest, would choose the guy who just missed the tournament for 2 straight years (including a 14-15 finish) and had proven he couldn't recruit, or the guy who made the tourney 2 straight years (and 3 of 4) and just signed a top-20 class?

I know you're knowledgeable, so I don't even have to wait for your answer.

Now, can we all go back to discussing important topics that haven't been beaten to death on Scoop, like whether Derrick was better than Magic Dawson, or whether or not Wojo could have kept Deonte? Those are always fun.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 31, 2020, 04:21:32 PM
First, thanks for agreeing with me on the national perception. You can call it "fawning" or anything else, all I said was that the perception was there. It was everybody else who kept changing the subject, because all they can think of every time they hear Wojo's name is "sucks."

Now, as far as stacking up against his predecessors ...

Lenny, do you honestly believe the AD at, say, Oklahoma State or USC or Wake Forest, would choose the guy who just missed the tournament for 2 straight years (including a 14-15 finish) and had proven he couldn't recruit, or the guy who made the tourney 2 straight years (and 3 of 4) and just signed a top-20 class?

I know you're knowledgeable, so I don't even have to wait for your answer.

Now, can we all go back to discussing important topics that haven't been beaten to death on Scoop, like whether Derrick was better than Magic Dawson, or whether or not Wojo could have kept Deonte? Those are always fun.

This is my last post on this topic, because quite frankly it's annoying and beaten to death...but I bolded the part I feel is important, and what I think the vast majority of scoopers miss...MU SHOULD be better and at a higher level then the schools you highlighted MU82. People will disagree with me(when don't they when it comes to expectations for the program?) and that's okay, but it's my belief that nationally MU should regularly be considered a better program then those..and I think that's the biggest problem...right now it's hard to argue they are. I don't think the general public or even people that follow CBB regularly really dig too deep into #'s when comparing programs like this(outside the blue bloods), they hear "Oklahoma St, Wake Forest, USC, Marquette, yup, all relatively the same basketball pedigree, not blue bloods, but nice programs in major conferences". THAT'S the perception that needs to change IMO
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 31, 2020, 04:31:47 PM
First, thanks for agreeing with me on the national perception. You can call it "fawning" or anything else, all I said was that the perception was there. It was everybody else who kept changing the subject, because all they can think of every time they hear Wojo's name is "sucks."

Now, as far as stacking up against his predecessors ...

Lenny, do you honestly believe the AD at, say, Oklahoma State or USC or Wake Forest, would choose the guy who just missed the tournament for 2 straight years (including a 14-15 finish) and had proven he couldn't recruit, or the guy who made the tourney 2 straight years (and 3 of 4) and just signed a top-20 class?

I know you're knowledgeable, so I don't even have to wait for your answer.


Mike

You’re right, of course. My standings of our last 5 coaches would be as follows:

1 Buzz
2 Crean
3 KO
4 Wojo
5 Deane

KO get penalized for only staying 4 years, but one could still mKe a good argument that he’s #2.

Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: brewcity77 on May 31, 2020, 05:20:40 PM
What was the Three Amigo’s record their first year?

While I'm sure these comparisons will come, the Amigos also had Novak. I'm not sure there's a Novak on next year's team.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 05:21:03 PM
Mike

You’re right, of course. My standings of our last 5 coaches would be as follows:

1 Buzz
2 Crean
3 KO
4 Wojo
5 Deane

KO get penalized for only staying 4 years, but one could still mKe a good argument that he’s #2.

Yep, I wish KO hadn't used Marquette as a stepping stone whose plan was to get out as soon as he felt the grass was greener -- starting a trend that continues to this day -- but he did a heck of a job in a very difficult situation for us. I got a lot of enjoyment out of watching KO's Sweet 16 team all season, and that win over Kentucky is a top-10 MU victory for me. Maybe top 5 if I actually went and counted 'em.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on May 31, 2020, 05:43:22 PM
Mike

You’re right, of course. My standings of our last 5 coaches would be as follows:

1 Buzz
2 Crean
3 KO
4 Wojo
5 Deane

KO get penalized for only staying 4 years, but one could still mKe a good argument that he’s #2.
I agree with this.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Uncle Rico on May 31, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
Crean laid the foundation for the success of the 21st Century.  KO did a great job here but Crean built the program to have sustained success.  Between facilities and helping navigate the move to the Big East, Marquette people need to swallow their pride and give him his due. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: muguru on May 31, 2020, 06:06:20 PM
Crean laid the foundation for the success of the 21st Century.  KO did a great job here but Crean built the program to have sustained success.  Between facilities and helping navigate the move to the Big East, Marquette people need to swallow their pride and give him his due.

You and I don't agree often Rico..but this is 100% spot on. He doesn't get near the credit he deserves from MU fans. Not even close.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 31, 2020, 06:36:34 PM
While I'm sure these comparisons will come, the Amigos also had Novak. I'm not sure there's a Novak on next year's team.

No Novak and the Amigos were considerably higher rated. This year’s class and their rsci:

Garcia 35
Osa.    99
Lewis. 87

Compared to the Amigos:

James  36
McNeal 57
Wesley 61
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Nukem2 on May 31, 2020, 06:41:48 PM
No Novak and the Amigos were considerably higher rated. This year’s class and their rsci:

Garcia 35
Osa.    99
Lewis. Not in top 100, I think he’s around 115

Compared to the Amigos:

James  36
McNeal 57
Wesley 61
Lewis is 87 in the RSCI
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on May 31, 2020, 06:46:28 PM
Lewis is 87 in the RSCI

My mistake. Thanks, I’ll edit.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Small Orange Soda on May 31, 2020, 06:49:13 PM
Mike

You’re right, of course. My standings of our last 5 coaches would be as follows:

1 Buzz
2 Crean
3 KO
4 Wojo
5 Deane

KO get penalized for only staying 4 years, but one could still mKe a good argument that he’s #2.

Yup.  Some of us are upset about that, others think that Wojo will improve.  Unfortunately, we've heard that refrain for several years running.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on May 31, 2020, 09:04:31 PM
This is my last post on this topic, because quite frankly it's annoying and beaten to death...but I bolded the part I feel is important, and what I think the vast majority of scoopers miss...MU SHOULD be better and at a higher level then the schools you highlighted MU82. People will disagree with me(when don't they when it comes to expectations for the program?) and that's okay, but it's my belief that nationally MU should regularly be considered a better program then those..and I think that's the biggest problem...right now it's hard to argue they are. I don't think the general public or even people that follow CBB regularly really dig too deep into #'s when comparing programs like this(outside the blue bloods), they hear "Oklahoma St, Wake Forest, USC, Marquette, yup, all relatively the same basketball pedigree, not blue bloods, but nice programs in major conferences". THAT'S the perception that needs to change IMO

OK.

I suggest you begin a letter-writing campaign to change it.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on June 01, 2020, 09:46:38 AM
I'd be willing to bet the author of this article couldn't name 2 players on Marquette's roster outside of Markus Howard.  Let's stop patting ourselves on the back for three complimentary sentences from a clueless SI writer desparate for content amid a pandemic.  Wojo is still not good enough.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: wadesworld on June 01, 2020, 09:50:17 AM
I'd be willing to bet the author of this article couldn't name 2 players on Marquette's roster outside of Markus Howard.  Let's stop patting ourselves on the back for three complimentary sentences from a clueless SI writer desparate for content amid a pandemic.  Wojo is still not good enough.

I'd bet he or she could.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: 5DollarPitcher on June 01, 2020, 09:53:00 AM
I'd bet he or she could.
Well we'll never know. 

One thing we know for sure - they have a funny definition of "consistently winning" in the Big East.  Aside from two outlier seasons on each end of the spectrum, each season has been solidly .500ish in the Big East.  If that's consistently winning then, by definition, we'd also be consistently losing at the same rate...
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on June 01, 2020, 10:04:33 AM
Yep, I wish KO hadn't used Marquette as a stepping stone whose plan was to get out as soon as he felt the grass was greener -- starting a trend that continues to this day -- but he did a heck of a job in a very difficult situation for us. I got a lot of enjoyment out of watching KO's Sweet 16 team all season, and that win over Kentucky is a top-10 MU victory for me. Maybe top 5 if I actually went and counted 'em.

O'Neill is a riddle to me.  He did some good things at Marquette at a time when the program had bottomed out.  For that alone he should be revered.

He also did what he did when our conferences were not very good, at least the MCC wasn't and the Great Midwest was pretty good.  I try to imagine how he would have done in CUSA, the old Big East or the new Big East.   In looking at his other stops in major conferences, he didn't do well.  Losing record at Tennessee (never had one winning season).  Under .350 record at Northwestern.  Losing record at USC.  His only winning record was at Arizona and his 19-15 record (later all vacated) there was one of the worst at Arizona in the last 30 years.


Was he a product of timing?  He landed MacIlvaine, Key and Logterman at a time when Wisconsin Badger basketball was bad.  Played in mid major conference.  Had one run in a NCAA tournament.   I'm not sure the evidence supports as we moved up in competition with better leagues that he would have done well because he didn't at any other stop where basketball success has been seen (except for Northwestern).
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: bilsu on June 01, 2020, 10:22:38 AM
Totally agree. That's why, after the 1982-83 season, Bob Dukiet had proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was a better coach than Mike Krzyzewski. BD was 81-32 at St. Peter's; K was 47-64 at Army and Duke. Case closed.

Stoopid Dook shoulda fired K and hired Dukiet ... but then we might have gotten stuck with that loser Krzyzewski.

And with Wojo and Deane, it definitely doesn't matter at all that the Big East now is considerably better than Conference USA was when Deane coached at MU. That shouldn't play into it at all. Or that Deane was handed a team that had just gone to the Sweet 16 while Wojo was handed a team that didn't make the postseason at all and had lost 5 of its top 6 scorers.

Yep, you always are what your record says you are: Dukiet was better than K. And, for that matter, Wojo is miles better than Shaka, the guy absolutely everybody (including me) wanted MU to hire, since Shaka landed at Texas. At 102-62 for Wojo vs. 90-78 for Shaka, it's not even close.
I would imagine had Wojo's teams been playing the competition St.Peter's played that his W-L record would be really good. You cannot compare W-L records without adjusting for competition levels. Of all of MU's coaches, I think Buzz had the toughest overall schedule and Wojo would have the second toughest. Crean had 3 years in Big East and 6 years against a lower level of competition.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: dgies9156 on June 01, 2020, 05:30:17 PM
Let's go back to the basic question -- Wojo to Duke odds.

They don't make numbers that high!

The reason is this: If Coach K retired, Duke could choose anyone in the country not named Roy Williams. This is where we were in 1977, on steroids. The program is good. The basketball team puts Duke on the map and there are too many examples of schools that fell off the radar because a national sports program (football or basketball) fell off the radar.

Duke's administration knows what we know at MU -- if the basketball program declines, so does giving. So does national exposure and so does the university's stature. In our case, think of what the McGuire Money helped MU do. Now multiply that times 1 million!

Duke would begin a national search and either would hire a well-established coach with an incredible track record, or the best assistant coach money could buy. I said back when Coach Wojo was hired and there was enormous hand wringing over the possibility we would be a stepping stone to Duke that the only way we would be a stepping stone to Duke would be if Coach Wojo put another banner next to the one that says "1977" on it.

I stand by that belief today. If Coach wins a national title for us, he'll be on the Duke short list. If he doesn't he's one of many.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: bilsu on June 01, 2020, 05:38:22 PM
I bet there are a lot of coaches that would not take the Duke job. The first coach will be lucky to last more than 5 years. Imagine making the tournament 5 straight years and not making the Sweet 16 at Duke. Look at the coaches UCLA fired.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on June 01, 2020, 07:19:51 PM
I bet there are a lot of coaches that would not take the Duke job. The first coach will be lucky to last more than 5 years. Imagine making the tournament 5 straight years and not making the Sweet 16 at Duke. Look at the coaches UCLA fired.
I agree but Wojo would take it and should.  He'd double or triple his salary.  But also take away him being an alum, his resume doesn't qualify him as serious candidate.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: panda on June 01, 2020, 07:26:27 PM
I agree but Wojo would take it and should.  He'd double or triple his salary.  But also take away him being an alum, his resume doesn't qualify him as serious candidate.

The only chance he has at this point is Coach K personally naming him as his replacement. He’s under qualified for what’s probably the best job in the country.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: The Sultan of Semantics on June 01, 2020, 07:46:50 PM
The only chance he has at this point is Coach K personally naming him as his replacement. He’s under qualified for what’s probably the best job in the country.

I don’t think it’s the best job in the country. That’s going to be a very hard job for whomever replaces K.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Viper on June 01, 2020, 08:24:07 PM
This is my last post on this topic, because quite frankly it's annoying and beaten to death...but I bolded the part I feel is important, and what I think the vast majority of scoopers miss...MU SHOULD be better and at a higher level then the schools you highlighted MU82. People will disagree with me(when don't they when it comes to expectations for the program?) and that's okay, but it's my belief that nationally MU should regularly be considered a better program then those..and I think that's the biggest problem...right now it's hard to argue they are. I don't think the general public or even people that follow CBB regularly really dig too deep into #'s when comparing programs like this(outside the blue bloods), they hear "Oklahoma St, Wake Forest, USC, Marquette, yup, all relatively the same basketball pedigree, not blue bloods, but nice programs in major conferences". THAT'S the perception that needs to change IMO
guru, I’m with you. The fact we’re heading into year 7 with Wojo and it’s still all a crap shoot. Can’t I have a 3 or 4 yr run where we kick some A? ‘Nova is doing it. Why the hell cant Marquette?
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Lennys Tap on June 01, 2020, 08:59:50 PM
I don’t think it’s the best job in the country. That’s going to be a very hard job for whomever replaces K.

+1000. Following a “legend” is extremely difficult. Fan bases have unrealistic expectations that are almost impossible for the next guy. Much better (IMO) to go to a program with history and commitment when it’s down.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: MU82 on June 01, 2020, 09:17:05 PM
Word. The best job in the country probably will be the Duke job if they have to fire K's replacement a couple/few years later.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on June 01, 2020, 09:36:51 PM
guru, I’m with you. The fact we’re heading into year 7 with Wojo and it’s still all a crap shoot. Can’t I have a 3 or 4 yr run where we kick some A? ‘Nova is doing it. Why the hell cant Marquette?

Nova stuck with their guy when their fans wanted to fire him.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: bilsu on June 01, 2020, 10:25:57 PM
I agree but Wojo would take it and should. He'd double or triple his salary.  But also take away him being an alum, his resume doesn't qualify him as serious candidate.
I doubt he would double or triple his salary. They are not going to pay him for Coach K's success.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Viper on June 02, 2020, 10:01:37 AM
Nova stuck with their guy when their fans wanted to fire him.
if I’ve implied ‘fire’ Wojo, I want to clarify. I have expressed frustration with his coaching. However, isn’t it time to see positive on-court results, i.e. win a ncaa tourney game; finish a regular season strong? I want MU to dominate, but I’ll settle for beating RED in November and a single ncaa tourney win in March. Man-o-Man how my standards have dropped.😀
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorPride68 on June 02, 2020, 10:19:09 AM
Nova stuck with their guy when their fans wanted to fire him.

Sweet 16 in year 4, Elite 8 in year 5
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on June 02, 2020, 11:17:19 AM
Sweet 16 in year 4, Elite 8 in year 5
I guess the expectations at VU are higher. We're whiners for wanting one win.  ::)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: swoopem on June 02, 2020, 11:24:33 AM
Sweet 16 in year 4, Elite 8 in year 5

Don’t worry. Chico’s will ask what year was that total for his head coaching career? According to him you have to include Hofstra
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: willie warrior on June 02, 2020, 01:51:59 PM
guru, I’m with you. The fact we’re heading into year 7 with Wojo and it’s still all a crap shoot. Can’t I have a 3 or 4 yr run where we kick some A? ‘Nova is doing it. Why the hell cant Marquette?
Because Wojo is the coach.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: willie warrior on June 02, 2020, 01:55:20 PM
Mike

You’re right, of course. My standings of our last 5 coaches would be as follows:

1 Buzz
2 Crean
3 KO
4 Wojo
5 Deane

KO get penalized for only staying 4 years, but one could still mKe a good argument that he’s #2.
About tight, except crean above Buzz and deane above Wojo
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: bilsu on June 02, 2020, 02:10:06 PM
O'Neal and Crean clearly saw MU as a stepping stone job.
I am not sure that Wojo is looking at MU as a stepping stone job outside of Duke.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on June 02, 2020, 03:07:24 PM
O'Neal and Crean clearly saw MU as a stepping stone job.
I am not sure that Wojo is looking at MU as a stepping stone job outside of Duke.
He should be happy to have the MU job. He has no opportunities to 'step up'.

IMHO, he will be back next to Coach K or at a mid-major within a few years. (Just one random poster's opinion and one who thinks Wojo is as classy of person that there is)
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Viper on June 02, 2020, 03:21:48 PM
O'Neill is a riddle to me.  He did some good things at Marquette at a time when the program had bottomed out.  For that alone he should be revered.

He also did what he did when our conferences were not very good, at least the MCC wasn't and the Great Midwest was pretty good.  I try to imagine how he would have done in CUSA, the old Big East or the new Big East.   In looking at his other stops in major conferences, he didn't do well.  Losing record at Tennessee (never had one winning season).  Under .350 record at Northwestern.  Losing record at USC.  His only winning record was at Arizona and his 19-15 record (later all vacated) there was one of the worst at Arizona in the last 30 years.


Was he a product of timing?  He landed MacIlvaine, Key and Logterman at a time when Wisconsin Badger basketball was bad.  Played in mid major conference.  Had one run in a NCAA tournament.   I'm not sure the evidence supports as we moved up in competition with better leagues that he would have done well because he didn't at any other stop where basketball success has been seen (except for Northwestern).
I agree with you on KO. 5 yrs at MU...didn’t he go NIT in year 1 w/Tony Smith?...then had ncaa bids in year 4&5? If he had stayed, I believe MU would have had sustained success. But, his practice facility was the Old Gym, contract was so-so, conference affiliation was meh...just too bad he couldn’t be convinced to hang in there w/MU because he bounced around thereafter. Btw, KO and Deane were hilarious at the MU hoops centennial celebration. 😂
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Herman Cain on June 02, 2020, 03:38:43 PM
He should be happy to have the MU job. He has no opportunities to 'step up'.

IMHO, he will be back next to Coach K or at a mid-major within a few years. (Just one random poster's opinion and one who thinks Wojo is as classy of person that there is)
My guess  speculation, conjecture etc, is that Wojo will eventually leave for the first available Pac-12 job he can get. He will cite lifestyle and family reasons. Instead of freezing his rear off in the Quon he could have a nice house looking at a Mountain somewhere.

Most of those programs would be a layup job for him. He could easily recruit enough players to stay competitive and expectations would not be high at most of those schools , since football is what pays the way in those schools.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WhiteTrash on June 02, 2020, 03:47:26 PM
My guess  speculation, conjecture etc, is that Wojo will eventually leave for the first available Pac-12 job he can get. He will cite lifestyle and family reasons. Instead of freezing his rear off in the Quon he could have a nice house looking at a Mountain somewhere.

Most of those programs would be a layup job for him. He could easily recruit enough players to stay competitive and expectations would not be high at most of those schools , since football is what pays the way in those schools.
I could see that also. Not a step up but in the P6. Oregon State, Washington State, etc.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on June 02, 2020, 04:41:12 PM
Crean laid the foundation for the success of the 21st Century.  KO did a great job here but Crean built the program to have sustained success.  Between facilities and helping navigate the move to the Big East, Marquette people need to swallow their pride and give him his due.

KO will always get extra credit from me for resuscitating a program on a death watch. 
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on June 02, 2020, 04:43:06 PM
While I'm sure these comparisons will come, the Amigos also had Novak. I'm not sure there's a Novak on next year's team.

An important difference, thanks for pointing it out.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: Dawson Rental on June 02, 2020, 04:55:38 PM
O'Neill is a riddle to me.  He did some good things at Marquette at a time when the program had bottomed out.  For that alone he should be revered.

He also did what he did when our conferences were not very good, at least the MCC wasn't and the Great Midwest was pretty good.  I try to imagine how he would have done in CUSA, the old Big East or the new Big East.   In looking at his other stops in major conferences, he didn't do well.  Losing record at Tennessee (never had one winning season).  Under .350 record at Northwestern.  Losing record at USC.  His only winning record was at Arizona and his 19-15 record (later all vacated) there was one of the worst at Arizona in the last 30 years.


Was he a product of timing?  He landed MacIlvaine, Key and Logterman at a time when Wisconsin Badger basketball was bad.  Played in mid major conference.  Had one run in a NCAA tournament.   I'm not sure the evidence supports as we moved up in competition with better leagues that he would have done well because he didn't at any other stop where basketball success has been seen (except for Northwestern).

I’ve always felt that the majority of Deane’s success came from the recruits KO left for him. So, there’s that too. KO didn’t stay long at Tenn due to conflicts with the AD over who he could recruit. That led to him jumping ship before he could have success there. Jumping to Northwestern was a horribly bad move made in desperation to get out of Knoxville. He really screwed his own pooch.
Title: Re: Wojo to Duke odds
Post by: WarriorDad on June 02, 2020, 06:11:22 PM
I agree with you on KO. 5 yrs at MU...didn’t he go NIT in year 1 w/Tony Smith?...then had ncaa bids in year 4&5? If he had stayed, I believe MU would have had sustained success. But, his practice facility was the Old Gym, contract was so-so, conference affiliation was meh...just too bad he couldn’t be convinced to hang in there w/MU because he bounced around thereafter. Btw, KO and Deane were hilarious at the MU hoops centennial celebration. 😂

His bouncing around was because he failed everywhere else he went.