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Author Topic: Bailey declares for draft  (Read 28443 times)

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #575 on: May 31, 2020, 12:38:16 PM »
Now you are the one creating a strawman argument.  Nobody has argued that we should fire him if the payout was lower. Posters, like from WarriorDad, argued we can't replace him because we can't afford to. He's ProJo and making a case to keep him. I am only pointing out the falicy of that position.

I honestly don't think Chicos or anyone else has made the argument that you claim they are making
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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WhiteTrash

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #576 on: May 31, 2020, 12:50:06 PM »
I said nothing of the kind.  In fact, I said MU could pay his buyout, but does it make sense?  Optically and based on performance?  No.   You may be able to purchase a $100k car today, but would it be wise considering other priorities?  This is why I asked who would pay the buyout.  Not because MU cannot, but because MU has more important needs to spend the money on.
You should go into politics. You can twist ideas into a pretzel.

You may or may not like Wojo but he doesn't have his job because of COVID and the economy.  He's our coach because MU believes in him.

muguru

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #577 on: May 31, 2020, 01:03:28 PM »
Just don't sign it Iceman.

For some reason Ted, with all the other negative comments people post about Wojo, you always seem to choose mine to reply to in your typical snarky way. The thing is, what I posted was an (obviously failed) attempt at humor. Quite frankly, I have warmed up to Wojo a bit based mostly on this recruiting class, and have said that this year more than any other, we will find out how good of a coach he is. I'm not expecting a tournament team(which kills me to say quite honestly), but perhaps we will see some growth in him as a Coach. that's what I'm hoping for. I have also said repeatedly, I don't care if Wojo is the Coach or Cookie monster is the coach, whoever it is, if they can bring a National Championship back to MU at some point(preferably sooner rather than later), that's all I really care about. Not who it is, just that it happens(hopefully).

Anyway, I'm quite frankly annoyed that these threads turn into Wojo bashing threads. It's almost without fail. It's why more than anything else I am hoping for a commit or schedule news or something very soon, so we can discuss something else. Although strangely, even when things like that happen, it's odd because people might make a comment and then it's over with. they'd rather talk about things like this I guess.
“Being realistic is the most common path to mediocrity.” Will Smith

We live in a society that rewards mediocrity , I detest mediocrity - David Goggi

I want this quote to serve as a reminder to the vast majority of scoop posters in regards to the MU BB program.

WhiteTrash

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #578 on: May 31, 2020, 01:06:19 PM »
I honestly don't think Chicos or anyone else has made the argument that you claim they are making
"This is why I asked who would pay the buyout.  Not because MU cannot, but because MU has more important needs to spend the money on."

I don't know how you can read this any other way. Why would Warrior Dad make this claim if not to assert that Wojo is our coach because MU can't afford the payout of his contract? MU needs boosters to afford firing him? MU would forgo other needs to afford letting Wojo go? That is BS.

I'll let it go, knowing MU is comfortably capable of firing Wojo when or if needed. 

WarriorDad

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #579 on: May 31, 2020, 01:40:00 PM »
You should go into politics. You can twist ideas into a pretzel.

You may or may not like Wojo but he doesn't have his job because of COVID and the economy.  He's our coach because MU believes in him.

I believe in him as does the university.  They should, in my opinion.  There is no reason for me not to support him.  If he has some bad years, then I will reconsider.
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WarriorDad

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #580 on: May 31, 2020, 01:41:53 PM »
"This is why I asked who would pay the buyout.  Not because MU cannot, but because MU has more important needs to spend the money on."

I don't know how you can read this any other way. Why would Warrior Dad make this claim if not to assert that Wojo is our coach because MU can't afford the payout of his contract? MU needs boosters to afford firing him? MU would forgo other needs to afford letting Wojo go? That is BS.

I'll let it go, knowing MU is comfortably capable of firing Wojo when or if needed.

You are reading it incorrectly and have from the start.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #581 on: May 31, 2020, 03:08:16 PM »
"This is why I asked who would pay the buyout.  Not because MU cannot, but because MU has more important needs to spend the money on."

I don't know how you can read this any other way. Why would Warrior Dad make this claim if not to assert that Wojo is our coach because MU can't afford the payout of his contract? MU needs boosters to afford firing him? MU would forgo other needs to afford letting Wojo go? That is BS.

I'll let it go, knowing MU is comfortably capable of firing Wojo when or if needed.

I think that pretty clearly states that MU could afford to fire him but has more pressing needs than spending millions on firing an average performing basketball coach. If he was worse, there might be a more pressing need. It's one reason among many reasons why Wojo wasn't fired last season.

I also think you overestimate the university's financial situation post covid. $6 million+ is not chump change. I'm not saying it will keep MU from making a move if they need to, but acting like it is a drop in the bucket is not correct. I anticipate that we will see Wojo get extended next season regardless of the results. But if the results are bad, the new contract will have some university friendly terms for ending the contract early.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

WhiteTrash

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #582 on: May 31, 2020, 03:23:36 PM »
I think that pretty clearly states that MU could afford to fire him but has more pressing needs than spending millions on firing an average performing basketball coach. If he was worse, there might be a more pressing need. It's one reason among many reasons why Wojo wasn't fired last season.

I also think you overestimate the university's financial situation post covid. $6 million+ is not chump change. I'm not saying it will keep MU from making a move if they need to, but acting like it is a drop in the bucket is not correct. I anticipate that we will see Wojo get extended next season regardless of the results. But if the results are bad, the new contract will have some university friendly terms for ending the contract early.
Okay. Fair enough. A very sad situation for MU and Wojo (except for his bank account).

I'd love to be there when someone says to Wojo, "You're a nice coach until we can afford better".

Wojo will be extended regardless of results? 5 wins or less and he gets extended?

TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #583 on: May 31, 2020, 03:44:43 PM »
Okay. Fair enough. A very sad situation for MU and Wojo (except for his bank account).

I'd love to be there when someone says to Wojo, "You're a nice coach until we can afford better".

Wojo will be extended regardless of results? 5 wins or less and he gets extended?

Yes, the pandemic has caused a sad situation for thousands of people and pretty much every university. Some have already closed as a result. Many more will follow suit over the next 10-20 years.

I think the conversation is more like "Results haven't been what we expect. We still believe you can get us there but the only way we can offer an extension is under these terms. If next year's results are better like we expect they will be, we will be able to offer a more substantial extension."

Yes, if Wojo turns in the worst season in modern high major history, then yes, he will be fired. I don't know where the cutoff between "fire Wojo" and "renegotiate Wojo's contract" is, but I'd guess it's lower than most scoopers would expect.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 03:58:35 PM by TAMU Eagle »
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #584 on: May 31, 2020, 04:57:33 PM »


I can think of several games that Al admitted his temper likely cost us key games.  He was an Irish hot head, and a brilliant one at that.  MU was not only looking at UCLA in the 70's. On wins and losses, yes, but we were an independent which benefited us greatly.  I would put us at 4th or 5th overall in the decade.  Still amazing.  Is Wojo even Mike Deane? You want me to take you seriously and you respond with that rhetorical question?

4th or 5th in the 70s? Behind what team not named UCLA?

We finished in the top 10 (AP poll, which included postseason) 9 times. The only time we finished outside the top 10 we checked in at #11. One National Championship, one runner up.

No other school finished in the top 10 more than 5 times. No team not named UCLA won more than one title.

So which 2 or 3 programs other than the Bruins were better than us in the 70s? Based on performance, none were all that close.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #585 on: May 31, 2020, 05:11:23 PM »
4th or 5th in the 70s? Behind what team not named UCLA?

We finished in the top 10 (AP poll, which included postseason) 9 times. The only time we finished outside the top 10 we checked in at #11. One National Championship, one runner up.

No other school finished in the top 10 more than 5 times. No team not named UCLA won more than one title.

So which 2 or 3 programs other than the Bruins were better than us in the 70s? Based on performance, none were all that close.

None were all that close?  Kentucky won a championship and was runner up one year. Indiana was also really good in the 70s with multiple finals fours and an undefeated championship.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #586 on: May 31, 2020, 05:23:38 PM »
I agree with Lenny. For consistent excellence, we were No. 2 that decade.

I'm sorry that as soon as I got to MU, things started to slip. I take full blame.
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WhiteTrash

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #587 on: May 31, 2020, 05:38:25 PM »
Yes, the pandemic has caused a sad situation for thousands of people and pretty much every university. Some have already closed as a result. Many more will follow suit over the next 10-20 years.

I think the conversation is more like "Results haven't been what we expect. We still believe you can get us there but the only way we can offer an extension is under these terms. If next year's results are better like we expect they will be, we will be able to offer a more substantial extension."

Yes, if Wojo turns in the worst season in modern high major history, then yes, he will be fired. I don't know where the cutoff between "fire Wojo" and "renegotiate Wojo's contract" is, but I'd guess it's lower than most scoopers would expect.
Your points are valid and well said. The whole point was to explain that Marquette is well run and not married to Wojo for financial reasons.  I get the impression that no one thinks that. I'll move on.

Herman Cain

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #588 on: May 31, 2020, 09:59:24 PM »
4th or 5th in the 70s? Behind what team not named UCLA?

We finished in the top 10 (AP poll, which included postseason) 9 times. The only time we finished outside the top 10 we checked in at #11. One National Championship, one runner up.

No other school finished in the top 10 more than 5 times. No team not named UCLA won more than one title.

So which 2 or 3 programs other than the Bruins were better than us in the 70s? Based on performance, none were all that close.
MU was the clear number 2 to UCLA.  Those of us around back then can comfortably testify that MU won most games before they even started through sheer intimidation.

We also played a very challenging schedule every year as an Independent. There were no scholarship limits. The good teams were loaded with talent, often times have 2-3 truly outstanding players.

Additionally, recruiting was no where near as scientific as it is today. and guys like Al relied on contacts from the streets, his system was the most refined and resulted in almost no recruiting misses. Other small schools could come up with great players as well, Niagara, St. Bonny Jacksonville, Texas Western etc. Big Ten, Big 8, Pac 8, SEC, Southwest Conference  schools on the other hand often times completely struck out. 

The media ate out of Al's hand, back in those day there were three TV networks, Sports Illustrated and The Local Newspapers. Al , coming from New York and the tabloid paper system there understood the media mindset, and constantly fed them content. 

The only real mistake Al made was turning the operation over to Hank. We could have had Denny Crum and who knows what heights he would have taken us given where the program was at.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #589 on: May 31, 2020, 11:01:32 PM »
None were all that close?  Kentucky won a championship and was runner up one year. Indiana was also really good in the 70s with multiple finals fours and an undefeated championship.

Fluff

You’re right that UK matched MU with a National Championship and a National Runner Up and that IU was close behind with a championship and a third place finish.

But for the whole decade, not all that close. Marquette was 244-46 and finished in the top 10 nine times. The only time they missed they finished #11. Kentucky was 223-69, finished in the top 10 five times, 17th once, 18th once and unbranded 3 times. Indiana was 208-75, top 10 four times, 13th once, 5 times unranked.

It was quite a run!

Galway Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #590 on: June 01, 2020, 08:06:30 AM »
To everyone it might not be so clear cut. This system ranked us three behind UNC

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #591 on: June 01, 2020, 08:21:01 AM »
To everyone it might not be so clear cut. This system ranked us three behind UNC

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf


I guess I just have a problem with no championships for North Carolina.  Maybe I am overemphasizing them too much.

Anyway, I have no problem with MU being #2.  I just think that it is more than a slam dunk, as those ratings would show.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

MU82

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #592 on: June 01, 2020, 09:23:02 AM »
To everyone it might not be so clear cut. This system ranked us three behind UNC

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

Cool. They can have #3 by one ranking system. We'll just point to the '77 national-title-game ranking system!
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bilsu

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #593 on: June 01, 2020, 10:34:11 AM »
Al was a coaching legend and the best MU will ever have.  He was part of my youth and permanently emblazoned in my memories.  He made mistakes, too.  He admitted them.  Wojo made mistakes.  He admitted them.  Al was a head coach for 7 years before coming to MU.  I don't care how small a school it is, that is on the job training.  Wojo has done his 6 years as head coach all at MU.  I wish he had 5 to 7 years before coming to MU, but he didn't. As a result we get the good with the bad.

I can think of several games that Al admitted his temper likely cost us key games.  He was an Irish hot head, and a brilliant one at that.  MU was not only looking at UCLA in the 70's. On wins and losses, yes, but we were an independent which benefited us greatly.  I would put us at 4th or 5th overall in the decade.  Still amazing.  Is Wojo even Mike Deane? You want me to take you seriously and you respond with that rhetorical question?
One of Al's biggest strength was his personality. One of Wojo's biggest weakness is his personality. Al was exciting and maybe even charismatic. Wojo is solid and boring. Can you imagine them going head to head for the same recruit. Saying Al would get the recruit 9 out of 10 times would probably be an understatement.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #594 on: June 01, 2020, 11:49:37 AM »
To everyone it might not be so clear cut. This system ranked us three behind UNC

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf

Galway,

I don’t think Sagerin (or Pomeroy) were around in the 70s. I was just using final (after the tournament) AP rankings and NCAA tournament success as my metric. I respect how they handle data but I disagree.

N Carolina finished in the top 10 in the 70s 5 times (to our 9). They finished outside the top 20 once. We never did. Both made the FF twice. We won one title, they won none.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #595 on: June 01, 2020, 12:05:52 PM »
Galway,

I don’t think Sagerin (or Pomeroy) were around in the 70s. I was just using final (after the tournament) AP rankings and NCAA tournament success as my metric. I respect how they handle data but I disagree.

N Carolina finished in the top 10 in the 70s 5 times (to our 9). They finished outside the top 20 once. We never did. Both made the FF twice. We won one title, they won none.

I argued this being incorrect for days on HolylandofHoops A few years back. I'm only trying to let it be known that it's not a consensus opinion and we might not be the clear cut Number 2 to everyone out there like UCLA is the clear cut number 1.
“No justice. no peace. No racist police."

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #596 on: June 01, 2020, 01:04:15 PM »
I argued this being incorrect for days on HolylandofHoops A few years back. I'm only trying to let it be known that it's not a consensus opinion and we might not be the clear cut Number 2 to everyone out there like UCLA is the clear cut number 1.

That’s fair.

WarriorDad

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #597 on: June 01, 2020, 09:08:02 PM »
4th or 5th in the 70s? Behind what team not named UCLA?

We finished in the top 10 (AP poll, which included postseason) 9 times. The only time we finished outside the top 10 we checked in at #11. One National Championship, one runner up.

No other school finished in the top 10 more than 5 times. No team not named UCLA won more than one title.

So which 2 or 3 programs other than the Bruins were better than us in the 70s? Based on performance, none were all that close.

It was my opinion.  UCLA #1 without a doubt.  I think #2 is between several schools including North Carolina, Indiana, Kentucky, Marquette.  There are arguments to be made for all.  The biggest mark against us was our schedule and the opportunities that came with an easier path than the big conference schools had.

We get a break for not playing in a conference.  Back then only the conference winner made the NCAA tournament.  There were some really good teams that North Carolina and Indiana fielded that never received a shot to play in the tournament because they had a disadvantage we didn't.  We did not have to deal with a conference, winning the conference, or even playing a conference schedule.

The 1974  Indiana Hoosiers were co Big Ten champions with a 23-5 record and 12-2 in the conference.  They had to play in the CCAT despite Indiana being ranked 9th in the country.   North Carolina in 1973, 1974 finished the rankings 11th, 12th, but they did not make the tournament because they didn't win the conference.  This happened to other programs.  Kentucky in 1976 and 1979, though those Kentucky teams were decent and would have been tournament worthy, not great.

In general, we had easier paths because of the schedule which those other schools didn't.  I would probably have ranked UCLA 1st, North Carolina 2nd, and neck and neck with MU and IU. 

I could also easily argue we beat UNC when it counted.  But IU knocked us out twice in the NCAA tournament and Kentucky beat us twice, while we beat them once in a consolation game. 
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
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WarriorDad

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #598 on: June 01, 2020, 10:32:34 PM »
One of Al's biggest strength was his personality. One of Wojo's biggest weakness is his personality. Al was exciting and maybe even charismatic. Wojo is solid and boring. Can you imagine them going head to head for the same recruit. Saying Al would get the recruit 9 out of 10 times would probably be an understatement.

I agree, but they are also product of their time.  Al, in today's politically correct world, would be skewered by too many people.  Wojo is a clean-cut, plays the media game, and politically correct.  He was raised in that world.  Al came from a world where we used to be blunt and told people how we felt.  You do that today and someone cries.  I don't know your age, but how people talk to each other today compared to the '70s or '60s could not be more night and day.  We were blunt and honest.  Today we go out of our way not to be blunt or honest because it might hurt someone's feelings.  Think about the coaches of the era then compared to coaches now.  A product of the societal norms we were raised in.
“No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth.”
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: Bailey declares for draft
« Reply #599 on: June 01, 2020, 11:33:34 PM »
I agree, but they are also product of their time.  Al, in today's politically correct world, would be skewered by too many people.  Wojo is a clean-cut, plays the media game, and politically correct.  He was raised in that world.  Al came from a world where we used to be blunt and told people how we felt.  You do that today and someone cries.  I don't know your age, but how people talk to each other today compared to the '70s or '60s could not be more night and day.  We were blunt and honest.  Today we go out of our way not to be blunt or honest because it might hurt someone's feelings.  Think about the coaches of the era then compared to coaches now.  A product of the societal norms we were raised in.

Ah, one of my favorite hypocrisies. Praising people in the 60s or 70s for being "blunt and honest." Then criticizing people today for being blunt and honest about when something that someone did or said offends them or disrespects someone else. Then it is "politically correct" or "someone's feelings getting hurt."
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper