"The Last Dance" open thread

[MU82]

David Halberstam wrote a book about Michael Jordan, Playing for Keeps: Michael Jordan and the World He Made in the mid 2000s that wrote about most of the stories told in this series. In fact, it follows the Halberstam book close enough that the series could have a tag line saying "Based on the Book by David Halberstam."

The stories about Dan Majerle, about Tony Kukoc and about the visceral hatred of Jerry Krause all were covered extensively in Mr. Halberstam's book.

I think Jordan is less a jerk than a driven competitor who must win. And a guy who does not like slights either. The whole Sports Illustrated thing over the "Bag it Michael" cover is amusing if not sad. My guess is Mr. Jordan is less worried about his image now than ever before.

I never read that book and it sounds like I should. I am a big fan of Halberstam's work, including The Best and the Brightest, The Breaks of the Game and Summer of '49.

[GBPhoenix1993]

If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was.  There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism.  They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.

For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that.  However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner.  LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win.  Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level.  To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.

[Sir Lawrence]

If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was.  There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism.  They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.

For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that.  However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner.  LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win.  Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level.  To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.

+ 1

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

My argument for why Jordan has always been the best is exactly that Sir Lawrence.

Is LeBron an incredibly talented basketball player? Absolutely.

But nobody, had that killer instinct that Jordan had and it can’t be taught. Just go to YouTube and type in Michael Jordan stories. I highly doubt you’re going to get those stories when LeBron retires.

[StillAWarrior]

If nothing else, this series has been a fun reminder of how great and just freaky Michael Jordan was.  There was a Sports Science episode a few years ago where they tried to compare various athletes overall athleticism.  They rated Lebron #1 and Jordan #2.

For just pure size, speed, strength measurables, I might agree with that.  However, there are a couple of things that make me think that if prime Jordan and prime LeBron battled it out, Jordan would come out the winner.  LeBron is competetive, but Jordan is "killer" competetive to the point it's not even close in terms of strength of will to win.  Also, Jordan has a legendary energy level that even as great an athlete as LeBron is, he's not in MJs class for endurance/energy level.  To me LeBron may be the most physically gifted athlete of my lifetime, but Jordan is the best basketball player to lace them up in my 50 years on this earth. It's been fun to relive his legacy the past few weeks even though I rooted against he and the Bulls.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up.  In my opinion, MJ and LeBron are neck and neck in the GOAT discussion, but this is the tie-breaker.  MJ was a stone cold killer.  LeBron has never quite had that.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I agree.

It's interesting looking at the advanced stats for both of them.  Lebron is a slightly better shooter, mostly because he is a better 3 point shooter than Jordan was.  Lebron is the better distributor, which I don't think anyone is surprised by.

But Jordan's TO% was insane when you look at his usage.  He rarely turned the ball over for how much he had it in his hands.

[MU82]

Nobody can ever "prove" whether Michael was better than LeBron, or vice versa. I will offer this, though ...

At the time Jordan played, defenses basically were allowed to mug offensive players. He was routinely grabbed, held, shoved, stiff-armed, etc. (He got away with plenty of that when he was on defense, too, so it was a 2-way street.) Nevertheless, he was able to dominate offensively, and did a lot of his best work in the playoffs, when refs were even less likely to want to "decide the game."

James, meanwhile, plays in an era in which defenders are not even supposed to touch offensive players. "Freedom of movement" rules guarantee that cutters are less likely to be held or shoved, and ballhandlers are less likely to be arm-barred or steered where they don't want to go.

LeBron is big enough, strong enough, talented enough and smart enough to have been a superstar in any era. He would have been great even had he played against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons and the Ewing-Starks-Mason Knicks.

But put Michael in today's game? He might have averaged 40 over his career instead of 30. Michael would have gone to the line more than Harden does.

What I just said doesn't "prove" anything, either. All of this stuff is a bunch of opinions. But I think it's a pretty significant thing when comparing players of different eras.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Nobody can ever "prove" whether Michael was better than LeBron, or vice versa. I will offer this, though ...

At the time Jordan played, defenses basically were allowed to mug offensive players. He was routinely grabbed, held, shoved, stiff-armed, etc. (He got away with plenty of that when he was on defense, too, so it was a 2-way street.) Nevertheless, he was able to dominate offensively, and did a lot of his best work in the playoffs, when refs were even less likely to want to "decide the game."

James, meanwhile, plays in an era in which defenders are not even supposed to touch offensive players. "Freedom of movement" rules guarantee that cutters are less likely to be held or shoved, and ballhandlers are less likely to be arm-barred or steered where they don't want to go.

LeBron is big enough, strong enough, talented enough and smart enough to have been a superstar in any era. He would have been great even had he played against the likes of the Bad Boy Pistons and the Ewing-Starks-Mason Knicks.

But put Michael in today's game? He might have averaged 40 over his career instead of 30. Michael would have gone to the line more than Harden does.

What I just said doesn't "prove" anything, either. All of this stuff is a bunch of opinions. But I think it's a pretty significant thing when comparing players of different eras.

Very good points.

[cheebs09]

Based on the ad I just saw on FB, they will go into Jordan punching Kerr. Not sure if they will show the video.

[cheebs09]

Man, I thought both episodes were great tonight.

[DegenerateDish]

The last 2 minutes of episode 7 was something.

[wadesworld]

I thought the first 3 weeks were much better.

[DegenerateDish]

I paused the tv for about five minutes after episode 7. The culmination of his father’s death to how that episode ended was heavy. The series could have ended right there. I’ll be curious to see how they end it next week, because the last two minutes of episode 7 was near perfect.

Notice that when the Bulls are running suicides at the beginning of the end of that episode, Jordan is dominating the sprint.

[DegenerateDish]

Also, no one came off looking better in tonight’s episodes than Hue Hollins.

[MU82]

Man, I thought both episodes were great tonight.

Agreed. Enjoyed them tremendously.

[GBPhoenix1993]

Even though I've seen that clip of Jordan sobbing before after winning the first title without his dad being alive, tonight was the first time I ever got a little choked up watching it after all the buildup to that moment.  I love this whole series, it's a nice break from all the awfulness going on in the world right now.

[cheebs09]

I found it a bit hypocritical Reinsdorf paid Jordan his Bulls contract while he played baseball, but wouldn’t renegotiate Pippen’s deal. He even said some of the reasoning was due to Jordan being underpaid.

[rocket surgeon]

the air was taken out of me on how some in the press really wanted to work the gambling issue despite no there, there.  i shouldn't be surprised given the modern day examples after examples of this type of thing being perpetrated.  however, if a "journalist"(s) would have ever tried to do this on say bart starr or brett favre, their careers would have been done, in green bay anyway.  i'm not comparing michael to bart and/or brett, but it showed that no mountain was high enough for a "journalist" to go after.  and then to try to tie in his father's murder and subsequent retiring from basketball all intertwined.  despicable as it was, i'm thinking there were some looking for their "big scoop" in the wrong place.  it would be interesting what became of some of these guys

  i loved jordan's response to the SI front page pic and article when he was playing baseball-the cover pic showed jordan whiffing and missing a ball by 3 feet and the corresponding article, never asked mike his opinion on any of it.  he said they never approached him and thatresuted in jordan never speaking to SI again.  michael went on to say, SI was criticizing him because he was doing what he(michael) wanted to do baseball) and not what SI felt he should be doing(basketball)  that was so enlightening.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

the air was taken out of me on how some in the press really wanted to work the gambling issue despite no there, there.  i shouldn't be surprised given the modern day examples after examples of this type of thing being perpetrated.  however, if a "journalist"(s) would have ever tried to do this on say bart starr or brett favre, their careers would have been done, in green bay anyway.  i'm not comparing michael to bart and/or brett, but it showed that no mountain was high enough for a "journalist" to go after.  and then to try to tie in his father's murder and subsequent retiring from basketball all intertwined.  despicable as it was, i'm thinking there were some looking for their "big scoop" in the wrong place.  it would be interesting what became of some of these guys

  i loved jordan's response to the SI front page pic and article when he was playing baseball-the cover pic showed jordan whiffing and missing a ball by 3 feet and the corresponding article, never asked mike his opinion on any of it.  he said they never approached him and thatresuted in jordan never speaking to SI again.  michael went on to say, SI was criticizing him because he was doing what he(michael) wanted to do baseball) and not what SI felt he should be doing(basketball)  that was so enlightening.

I agree with your first paragraph, but I think you are being pretty rosy about Starr and Favre.  When Starr was a coach, he was getting roasted pretty regularly by the likes of Cliff Christl, and Favre was hardly immune when it came to Bob McGinn.

But I don't agree with the second.  MJ's attitude that they should have talked with him to understand his "passion."  I mean, WTF?  Who cares about your passion?  You're a .202 hitter in AA baseball, and I know people want to kiss his a$$, but there was zero chance that he makes the majors. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I found it a bit hypocritical Reinsdorf paid Jordan his Bulls contract while he played baseball, but wouldn’t renegotiate Pippen’s deal. He even said some of the reasoning was due to Jordan being underpaid.

IMO, he paid him his basketball contract so he would sign with the White Sox and out of hopes he would come back.

[rocket surgeon]

I agree with your first paragraph, but I think you are being pretty rosy about Starr and Favre.  When Starr was a coach, he was getting roasted pretty regularly by the likes of Cliff Christl, and Favre was hardly immune when it came to Bob McGinn.

But I don't agree with the second.  MJ's attitude that they should have talked with him to understand his "passion."  I mean, WTF?  Who cares about your passion?  You're a .202 hitter in AA baseball, and I know people want to kiss his a$$, but there was zero chance that he makes the majors.

i probably should have made myself more clear-personal life although bart was probably cleaner than the parish priest.  brett...? 

i don't believe michael expected them(SI) to talk to him and/or he really had the expectations of making it to the show.  i think it was the attempt at a hit to his pride.  maybe if they would have spoken to him however, his goal wasn't necessarily on making it to the bigs.  it was more or less fulfilling a dream or "bucket list" check off.  if he made it to the bigs-bonus.  there sure seemed to be some bad blood there however.  i can see both sides to all of this.  michael was a "dick" for a number of reasons.  1)-cuz he was that good, 2)he had high expectatons 3) competitor, 4) he could   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

i probably should have made myself more clear-personal life although bart was probably cleaner than the parish priest.  brett...? 

i don't believe michael expected them(SI) to talk to him and/or he really had the expectations of making it to the show.  i think it was the attempt at a hit to his pride.  maybe if they would have spoken to him however, his goal wasn't necessarily on making it to the bigs.  it was more or less fulfilling a dream or "bucket list" check off.  if he made it to the bigs-bonus.  there sure seemed to be some bad blood there however.  i can see both sides to all of this.  michael was a "dick" for a number of reasons.  1)-cuz he was that good, 2)he had high expectatons 3) competitor, 4) he could   

Again, who cares if its his dream?  He is a professional athlete playing a sport pretty poorly.  Here is the article.  It's harsh, but I don't think it's unfair.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/03/14/err-jordan-try-as-he-might-michael-jordan-has-found-baseball-beyong-his-grasp

Sure he didn't talk to SI again, but that's just what he did to get fired up.

[MU82]

The subject's "passion" has nothing to do with anything. I'm pretty sure most athletes, coaches and GMs in all sports have "passion" for what they do. Does that mean all of them should beyond criticism? If Tom Brady decided to give up football to play basketball, and if he was horrible at basketball, should nobody criticize him because basketball is his "passion"? Does the fact that Wojo is passionate about Marquette basketball mean that Scoop shouldn't even exist?

I have no problem with SI's writer doing an opinion piece - which is exactly what that was - and there is absolutely no "unwritten rule" that a writer doing such an article talk to the subject. I mean, I wrote many a "Wannstedt has to go" and "Jauron has to go" and "McNown has to go" columns without asking Wannstedt, Jauron and McNown about it every time. Then again, none of those clowns was Michael Jordan, and sure, it would have been classy for the SI writer to talk to him before writing it.

I disagree with Sultan that Jordan had no chance at the majors; I firmly believe that if the 1995 season had played out as scheduled, without the lockout, Jordan would have stayed in baseball and Reinsdorf would have made sure he was brought up to Chicago that September. The 1995 White Sox sucked, and they often had trouble convincing 20K people to watch them. Jordan would have guaranteed many sellouts, both at home and on the road, in what otherwise turned out to be a month to completely ignore.

Now, whether Jordan actually would have earned such a promotion, and whether he would have been good enough ever to be more than a September cup-of-coffee call-up, those are entirely different issues. I certainly agree that it is highly unlikely Jordan would have been good enough to make a big-league ballclub out of spring training.

As for all the gambling suspension stuff, especially with the links to James Jordan's death, I remember thinking back then that it was handled extremely poorly by many members of the media. Particularly TV outlets, but also unfortunately some sportswriters, even guys who weren't considered hacks. I wasn't surprised to see it from the likes of the NY Post and National Enquirer, but I was disappointed that so many members of the legitimate media piled on. Such poor judgment gives people like rocket - who blindly excuses and justifies the daily atrocities of his favorite politician - permission to stamp all "journalists" with one "enemy of the people" label.

[HouWarrior]

I enjoyed this series, but hoped for a mention of the two NBA championships of my Houston Rockets ...but, alas,  I have come to accept I live not in Clutch City but rather in Asterisk Town:

93/94 NBA Houston Rockets * (the Bulls/MJ simply were on a break)

2017 MLB Houston Astericks * (MLB didnt need to take the trophy away--everyone else, including history, already has)

1982-83 NCAA Houston Cougars, a/k/a Phi Slamma Jamma * (Not even a champ, thanks to Jimmy V's NC State)

1997, 1998, 1999, 2000 WBNA Houston Comets* (Its the "Womens" NBA, not even the jv or even frosh level, hello)

1960, 1961 AFL Houston Oilers* (seriously, did the AFL even exist pre color TV?)

Our Htown population may soon approach No. 3 Chicago but rest assured  for sports fandom success Chitown will always be better Congrats to the Bulls-- that was a great run

[ZiggysFryBoy]

The subject's "passion" has nothing to do with anything. I'm pretty sure most athletes, coaches and GMs in all sports have "passion" for what they do. Does that mean all of them should beyond criticism? If Tom Brady decided to give up football to play basketball, and if he was horrible at basketball, should nobody criticize him because basketball is his "passion"? Does the fact that Wojo is passionate about Marquette basketball mean that Scoop shouldn't even exist?

I have no problem with SI's writer doing an opinion piece - which is exactly what that was - and there is absolutely no "unwritten rule" that a writer doing such an article talk to the subject. I mean, I wrote many a "Wannstedt has to go" and "Jauron has to go" and "McNown has to go" columns without asking Wannstedt, Jauron and McNown about it every time. Then again, none of those clowns was Michael Jordan, and sure, it would have been classy for the SI writer to talk to him before writing it.

I disagree with Sultan that Jordan had no chance at the majors; I firmly believe that if the 1995 season had played out as scheduled, without the lockout, Jordan would have stayed in baseball and Reinsdorf would have made sure he was brought up to Chicago that September. The 1995 White Sox sucked, and they often had trouble convincing 20K people to watch them. Jordan would have guaranteed many sellouts, both at home and on the road, in what otherwise turned out to be a month to completely ignore.

Now, whether Jordan actually would have earned such a promotion, and whether he would have been good enough ever to be more than a September cup-of-coffee call-up, those are entirely different issues. I certainly agree that it is highly unlikely Jordan would have been good enough to make a big-league ballclub out of spring training.

As for all the gambling suspension stuff, especially with the links to James Jordan's death, I remember thinking back then that it was handled extremely poorly by many members of the media. Particularly TV outlets, but also unfortunately some sportswriters, even guys who weren't considered hacks. I wasn't surprised to see it from the likes of the NY Post and National Enquirer, but I was disappointed that so many members of the legitimate media piled on. Such poor judgment gives people like rocket - who blindly excuses and justifies the daily atrocities of his favorite politician - permission to stamp all "journalists" with one "enemy of the people" label.

If anyone knows "hot takes that backfire for $800, Alex," it's this guy right here.