"The Last Dance" open thread

[The Sultan]

Rodman, before he went insane, was like a kid on the court and a totally different person than he was with San Antonio and the Bulls.  Hustle, enthusiasm, passion, he was awesome during the title runs. The tears when he won DPOY in 1990 were real and left an impression on so many young cagers.

Laimbeer, well, he was our guy. My favorite was Dumars, the quiet assassin.

Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.

Serial killers have their odd fandom too.

[tower912]

Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers.    Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.

[cheebs09]

I thought Jordan keeping Thomas off the Dream Team was because Thomas led the charge to freeze him out at the All Star game. Plus, Thomas has shown why he can rub people the wrong way over the course of his playing career and after.

[Billy Hoyle]

I thought Jordan keeping Thomas off the Dream Team was because Thomas led the charge to freeze him out at the All Star game. Plus, Thomas has shown why he can rub people the wrong way over the course of his playing career and after.

No doubt about that. His post-career endeavors (CBA, Knicks, FIU) have overshadowed his playing career.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Jordan vs. Zeke is always gonna be a "Who shot first" thing.

I think the biggest difference is one player has seemingly let it go while the other is still salty to this day.

[MU82]

No doubt about that. His post-career endeavors (CBA, Knicks, FIU) have overshadowed his playing career.

Meanwhile, Michael being a flop as an NBA executive (in Washington, where he drafted Kwami Brown, among other screw-ups) and owner (Charlotte has sucked pretty much his entire time here) doesn't seem to have tarnished the image he built as a player -- and product pitchman -- at all.

Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers.    Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.

As a person who is a fan of neither team but an observer of both ... the Bulls never had players try to "take out" Thomas and Dumars. Rodman tried to hurt Pippen, and Daly clearly had his players try to rough up Jordan whenever possible. Much of the latter was within the rules back then, but I don't think whatever beef the Pistons have against the Bulls is an equivalent situation.

Once the Bulls started winning titles, of course, they rendered the Pistons obsolete. So maybe some of the "saltiness" comes from that.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Jordan felt the need to trash the Pistons and disrespect their accomplishments. Thus the bitterness. Having to overcome the Celtics and Lakers, and being jobbed in game 6 in 1988, made those titles so sweet. Then to have Jordan whine that they were to physical (while still scoring 105+ per game) and him screwing Zeke out of them Team spot he earned, turned me anti-Bulls and Jordan for good.

You know what was super classy?  When the Bulls finally overtook the Pistons in the playoffs and Isiah Thomas and his class bunch walked off the court before the game four was done.

Joe Dumars it turns out was the only classy bad boy.

[Billy Hoyle]

You know what was super classy?  When the Bulls finally overtook the Pistons in the playoffs and Isiah Thomas and his class bunch walked off the court before the game four was done.

Joe Dumars it turns out was the only classy bad boy.

and yet all of the Celtics, other than McHale, did the same in 1988 and nobody batted an eye. For the Pistons is was in response to Jordan saying the Pistons titles were bad for basketball. Disrespecting the champs like that deserved disrespect back.

https://clutchpoints.com/pistons-news-john-salley-reveals-what-really-happened-when-detroit-walked-off-court-vs-bulls-in-1991/

[The Sultan]

and yet all of the Celtics, other than McHale, did the same in 1988 and nobody batted an eye. For the Pistons is was in response to Jordan saying the Pistons titles were bad for basketball. Disrespecting the champs like that deserved disrespect back.

https://clutchpoints.com/pistons-news-john-salley-reveals-what-really-happened-when-detroit-walked-off-court-vs-bulls-in-1991/

Ah yes.  The true victims were...the Pistons.  Because they were..."disrespected." 

[Billy Hoyle]

Ah yes.  The true victims were...the Pistons.  Because they were..."disrespected." 

I don't think there were any "victims." Don't talk trash then wonder why the target is upset.

And for as much as I hated the Bulls and Jordan I respect their accomplishments. Hell, if not for Jordan sabbatical they probably win eight in a row.

[tower912]

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/

Highlights.    For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball.    Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective.    A center who could shoot 3's.   3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable.    An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.   

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

So Laimbeer definitely said no to speaking in this documentary right?

There's no way the producers didn't ask him.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Dennis Rodman casually chugging a Miller Lite before getting on a motorcycle in front of police is an image that will never be topped.

[The Sultan]

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/

Highlights.    For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball.    Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective.    A center who could shoot 3's.   3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable.    An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.   

Yes tower. We get it. Your Pistons are being overlooked.

[cheebs09]

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this documentary. However, it didn't feel like episode 4 had much of 97-98. Maybe the last 4 episodes will have more as they get through the early parts of Jordan's career.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Poor Scott Burrell

[Lennys Tap]

Piston fans from that era view the Bulls as the serial killers.    Unlikely that chasm is ever bridged.

Not surprising tha Bull's fans and Piston's fans saw things differently. But pretty much everyone not a Detroit fan thought the Pistons were dirty. So there's that.

[MU82]

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/columnists/shawn-windsor/2020/04/26/detroit-pistons-bad-boys-michael-jordan-bulls-the-last-dance-espn/3028110001/

Highlights.    For all of the videos showing nothing but Pistons putting opponents on their butts during the playoffs, the Pistons actually played some really good basketball.    Precursor to San Antonio and Golden State from an offensive ball movement perspective.    A center who could shoot 3's.   3 really good guards who could be used interchangeable.    An effective fast break with Salley and Rodman filling the lanes.

I love ya, tower, but this episode did have several players who were on the Pistons that season talking about their entire focus being to inflict as much pain as they could on Michael. So there's that.

Obviously, they were a great team. Isiah and Dumars are Hall of Famers, and they had several other outstanding players, and an excellent coach. But pssst ... the documentary wasn't about them. I'd highly recommend you start production on Beautiful Basketball, The Story Of The Late '80s Pistons.

Don't get me wrong, I'm loving this documentary. However, it didn't feel like episode 4 had much of 97-98. Maybe the last 4 episodes will have more as they get through the early parts of Jordan's career.

To me it felt they wanted to use these first 4 episodes to give everybody an inside look at the 4 main personalities -- Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Jackson -- while also giving a history lesson on how the franchise got where it did. I'm guessing you're right about seeing more '98 as the series goes on.

I think it's been very well done so far.

[Dish]

I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.

I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.

[The Sultan]

Toni Kukoc was a very good basketball player.  I trust they will bring his story into this at some point as well.

[tower912]

I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.

I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.

Always did.

[MU82]

I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.

In both public and private, Jackson and Jordan regularly made the same comments about Rodman that you did. Jackson said Rodman understood and ran the triangle better than any other player. The series that Rodman defended Shaq (then on the Magic) 1-on-1 for long stretches was an incredible display of smart, ferocious defense. You are right about Daly and Jackson -- perfect coaches for Worm.

Some dismiss Jackson's coaching ability because "he always had so much talent," but lots of coaches/managers in lots of sports never win despite having considerable talent to work with. Jackson was the best ego-manager we've ever seen in any sport IMHO, remarkable at getting players with extremely different personalities and agendas to work together. The clip in this last episode of him imploring Jordan to repeatedly pass to Paxson is a perfect example.

If I had to list my all-time top 10 coaches/managers from all 4 major pro sports since I became an adult (or at least "adult-ish"), he would be No. 1 ... and the distance between him and the next guy probably would be pretty wide.

[The Sultan]

The other thing about Rodman that is so facinating in retrospect, is that some of the stuff he did, like color his hair and wear goofy clothes, would seem so tame now.  And I forgot about Michael Jordan's "beret phase."  That looked worse than anything Rodman wore.

Hey and Carmen Electra still looks pretty good.

[tower912]

I hope people properly appreciate how good of a basketball player Rodman was. All the shenanigans aside, that dude worked hard, studied hard, one of the most cerebral players ever. Chuck Daly and Phil Jackson were the perfect coaches for him at each respective point in his career.

I want to say this now before it airs later...no team during the Bulls run scared me more than those 98 Pacers.

Rodman could guard and frustrate Bird, McHale, Jordan, Pippen, Magic, Worthy, Wilkins all the while rebounding like no other skinny 6'8 guy you ever saw.   Early on, as good of an on ball defender as I have seen.   Great feet, great understanding of his opponents tendencies.

[The Sultan]

In retrospect, it is pretty amazing that Reinsdorf was OK with Krause's plan to not bring Jackson back and to start from scratch.  What owner would possibly think that way now?  He should have recognized that Jackson was more important than Krause and that giving Pippen an extension early would have been beneficial for the team in the long run.

But that's totally Reinsdorf right?  Believing way too much for too long in his front office staff.