Protests

[WarriorDad]

Some here have already said it, but it needs to be said again.  The police unions are a big part of this problem.  Bad cops are protected the same way bad teachers, bad pilots, bad you name it.  Unions were instrumental in building this country and preventing corporations from unduly trampling on our rights, but they have a bad side too.  People that do not belong in their positions are allowed to stay.  Any chance at reform has to start with the unions because they protect one and all, the competent and incompetent. 

[Jockey]

Good for Mitt.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10

Bunker Boy will be tweetin' up a storm tomorrow.

[JWags85]

Good for Mitt.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10

I think Mitt learned a lot from his foibles during his failed presidential race and the time following it.  He was a successful Republican governor in one of the bluest states there is. He was an optimistic example of a strong moderate from that party, until he got swept way right as seems to be the game plan when it comes to presidential candidates. Glad to see he's finding his way again.

[The Sultan]

He also ran against a popular incumbent. That's always an uphill battle.

[Pakuni]

People that do not belong in their positions are allowed to stay.  Any chance at reform has to start with the unions because they protect one and all, the competent and incompetent.

I've been critical of police union leadership because they generally suck. But, in fairness, unions can't really pick and choose who receives union benefits, including representation throughout the disciplinary process. They're legally required to provide it to all members as part of the union contract.
Decisions about who gets to stay and go ultimately aren't made by the union anyway. They're made by appointed police boards. Those boards, it can be said, often have too chummy of relationships with the departments they oversee.

[reinko]

My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn't especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.

I understand her general "point" about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.

But that's about it.  There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that's more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China.  Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody.  That wouldn't mean he was a perfect person but he still didn't deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.

More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It's very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that's dastardly. There's plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn't opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn't pressing or that overarching

That's a whole of words (including dastardly?) when you could have said she's an pretty boy and terrible human being.

[shoothoops]

Minneapolis City Council decides to dismantle the police department and instead create a new public safety system.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?s=19

[GooooMarquette]

My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn't especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.

I understand her general "point" about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.

But that's about it.  There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that's more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China.  Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody.  That wouldn't mean he was a perfect person but he still didn't deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.

More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It's very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that's dastardly. There's plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn't opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn't pressing or that overarching

Agreed. As I said earlier - using different words, but the same general sentiment - is that George Floyd is not being made into a hero or a martyr - he is a symbol of these protests against racial inequality in policing and criminal justice.

[tower912]

I may have to join the church of Stone Cold Steve Austin.

[Pakuni]

I may have to join the church of Stone Cold Steve Austin.

And that's the bottom line.

[pbiflyer]

Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate.  However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.

For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.

And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?

Maybe the reason you haven't got an answer yet is he and the missus were out for a Sunday drive.......

[muwarrior69]

Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate.  However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.

For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.

And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?

I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?

As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?

[muwarrior69]

Minneapolis City Council decides to dismantle the police department and instead create a new public safety system.

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?s=19

They did not disband the police department in Camden, NJ; just like they voted to do in Minneapolis.

[WarriorDad]

Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit "wisdom."

Washington Monthly, a left of center magazine, provides the same wisdom.  I realize it isn't hard core left for some of you, but most definitely core to what was the Democratic Party.

We run the cities, we run the police departments.  We allowed this.  That isn't BS.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/06/06/democratic-mayors-and-city-councils-must-step-up-to-hold-police-accountable/

The changes start with the Democratic Party.  I cannot think of the last riots that didn't happen in a Democratically controlled city Involving police.  Can you?

[JWags85]

I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?

As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?

His murder is horrific and tragic, but it was not done by those who are paid to protect him. It was not done by those whose crimes or illicit activities in the line of duty are protected by that system of power or union structure.

If my apartment was broken into and robbed, it would be horrible. If it was done by the son of my landlord and his friends and my landlord refused to punish him or make it right in any way, that's a completely different level of F'd up and worthy of elevated focus.

Saying that their mission of fighting against sanctioned systemic racism and murder by government employees is less valid cause they don't care about ALL murder in the black community is a classic red herring.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?

No, he isn't a symbol of systemic racism.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/david-dorn-murder-man-charged/63-5ed35511-2115-4200-ba5c-b06feaedd1d8
Looks like it was a robbery/murder.

BLM is a movement against systematic racism. The murder was, at the time of your posting, unsolved. Why would they focus on it in particular? Claiming that if they don't pay attention to the murder of every single black person equally then the movement is a fraud is absurd. And trying to claim that the fact that a black man became a police captain shows their isn't systematic racism is equally absurd.

As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?

Yes, her quotes are not grounded in reality. And I'm sorry, there aren't multiple realities. And yes, my arguments are far more valid than hers. Not all arguments are equally valid.

As Isaac Asimov said, "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

[Pakuni]

I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?

As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?

1. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what BLM is and why it exists. Perhaps do a little research before declaring it a fraud. Your complaints are tantamount to saying the NTSB is a fraud because it fails to act on allegations of securities fraud.

2. Yes, her arguments are less valid, because her arguments are not supported by actual facts and evidence.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist.  Too left for me, but he said something that hit home.  Some introspection on our part is necessary.  Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years.  If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren't we changing it?  We control the mayor's office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.

He brings up a salient point.  We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.   

https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21

"All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population." –ChicosBailBonds

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224

[Pakuni]

I cannot think of the last riots that didn't happen in a Democratically controlled city Involving police.  Can you?

Ferguson, 2014
Anaheim, 2012 and 2017 (weird you don't remember these  )

But again, keep missing the point because you want to blame a party rather than deal with the problem, which has nothing to do with either political party.

[wadesworld]

"Every single issue that's ever come up in America is the fault of the Democrats we've voted into office.  If there's a Democrat in the White House, simple, even the smallest, most local issue is the fault of the federal government.  If it's a worldwide issue but we have a Republican in the White House, it's too bad we had to vote Democrats into office in the cities these issues took place!"

Signed,

The non-partisan-yet-only-ever-voted-for-Democrats-ever-in-my-life-Chicago Cubs, Arizona Cardinals fan who lives in IL and is looking to soon retire in TN.

[Pakuni]

Ben Carson, June 7, 2020:

"My personal feeling is, if those players were to come out and say, 'We love our nation, we are patriots, we love our flag, we honor the memory of those who died to give us our freedom, but we are protesting some of the brutality that has occurred, and that's why we're doing this,' I think it would solve the problem," Carson said. "And I suggest that they do that."

Colin Kaepernick, September 2016:

"I realize men and women of the military go out and sacrifice their lives and put their selves in harm's way for my freedom of speech and my freedoms in this country and my freedom to take a seat or take a knee," Kaepernick said. "I'm not anti-America. I  love America. I love people. That's why I'm doing this. I want to help make America better. I think having these conversations helps everybody have a better understanding of where everybody is coming from."

[muwarrior69]

His murder is horrific and tragic, but it was not done by those who are paid to protect him. It was not done by those whose crimes or illicit activities in the line of duty are protected by that system of power or union structure.

If my apartment was broken into and robbed, it would be horrible. If it was done by the son of my landlord and his friends and my landlord refused to punish him or make it right in any way, that's a completely different level of F'd up and worthy of elevated focus.

Saying that their mission of fighting against sanctioned systemic racism and murder by government employees is less valid cause they don't care about ALL murder in the black community is a classic red herring.

So, since he was not killed by the cops or white cops in particular his black life does not matter. So why isn't the movement called Black Lives Matter only if your killed by cops.
That they don't care about all murder in the black community is a pretty alarming admission.

Well, according to Hards-Alum that should not be a crime punishable with imprisonment even if it was the landlords son and his friends. If you live in Minneapolis now potentially with no police who do you turn to, some community militia?

[JWags85]

So, since he was not killed by the cops or white cops in particular his black life does not matter. So why isn't the movement called Black Lives Matter only if your killed by cops.
That they don't care about all murder in the black community is a pretty alarming admission.

I know you don't care cause it doesn't fit your agenda or point, but you don't get to determine what a group was created for and stand for and ignore their purpose.

In their words "Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state"

They never had a expressed purpose to stop all murder or crime within the black community. That is a massive and overwhelming undertaking. They specifically targeted violence and murder against the black community by agents of the state/government. That doesn't make their mission any less invalid cause you think murder is murder and why should they care about the police killing an unarmed black man when gang violence kills plenty everyday or some other classic talking point.

YOUVE decided they don't care about "all murder" in the black community. All I did was point out the flaw in your argument that they were a fraud by stating they never were organized for the purpose you claim.

I hope you also declare organizations formed to stop child sex trafficking as frauds and deride them for the abhorrent stance of not trying to stop ALL sex trafficking of adults as well.

[WarriorDad]

Ferguson, 2014
Anaheim, 2012 and 2017 (weird you don't remember these  )

But again, keep missing the point because you want to blame a party rather than deal with the problem, which has nothing to do with either political party.

No, I don't remember Anaheim and when I look up major riots in the USA since 1900 it doesn't show up.

https://www.infoplease.com/us/history/major-race-riots-us

Ferguson riots were mostly from people coming in from St Louis.  Ferguson is also an example of a city not interested in its own direction.  12% voter turnout and the mayor ran unopposed. 

I am not blaming a party, I am saying we have the power to change things.  The GOP is a gnat in big cities. They have no voting power.  We have the control, if we are not happy then we need to make the changes.  The people that can make the changes are the voters that are eligible to vote where the policing problems are happening. Those places happen to be heavily Democratic, and we need to be the agents of change. 

Instead of you and Wadesworld and FluffyBlueMonster being so defensive, why not seek the higher ground and understand the opportunity and change agents we can become?  Whom do you expect to make the changes in our cities?  People that don't live there?  Not going to happen.

[WarriorDad]

"All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population." –ChicosBailBonds

https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224

Do you know who JK Rowling is?