6 Seasons in the Books. Wojo's grade?

[Golden Avalanche]

I don't disagree, but I think this underscores the problem. Wojo is an average coach. A bit above average as a recruiter, a bit below average as a game coach. Thus far, the average coach has given us average results. Some okay, some a little disappointing, but nothing that makes you excited or completely exasperated.

The question is then what we expect as a program. Is an average program with average results okay? Then Wojo's the guy. But if we want more than average, I don't think he's it.

This is all on point.

My only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

[wadesworld]

This is all on point.

My only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

Exactly. I did not think there would be a Nova, Kansas, Kentucky, or Gonzaga of the NBE. I expected Nova and Georgetown to be slightly ahead of Marquette, Xavier, and Butler. Nova had far exceeded those expectations.

But going into the NBE I thought the only program with a chance to become the dominating program of the conference was Georgetown. I thought the most likely scenario was a lot of parity with a bunch of similarly minded schools and a few bottom feeder programs.

So far there's been one dominant program, one bottom feeder, and the rest of the programs have had some good years and some bad years.

MU should be better than what they've been. But I don't think it was ever reasonable to assume we'd be fighting for the conference title every single season.

[WarriorPride68]

You are correct. It was a tough choice between giving Wojo a C or D grade but I voted D. In my mind he's been in the C-/D+ range.

Team	Record
Villanova	87-21
Xavier	64-44
Butler	60-48
Providence	60-48
Seton Hall	60-48
Creighton	55-53
Marquette	51-57
Georgetown	43-65
St. John's	35-73
DePaul	25-83

Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

[BM1090]

Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

Correct. But Georgetown and Creighton each had one win in Buzz's last year. Neither have one a tournament game since Wojo took over.

[MU Buff]

Also, correct me if I am wrong but DePaul, St Johns & Marquette are the only schools without tournament wins since the "new big East" was formed in 2013/2014?

Correct, although 4 more programs only have 1 NCAA tournament win. Still, it's better than 0.

Butler          5
Creighton     1
DePaul         0
Georgetown 1
Marquette    0
Providence   1
Seton Hall    1
St. John's    0
Villanova    16
Xavier         7

[5DollarPitcher]

Overarching theme of the Big East for the last half decade is that Nova is the program of accomplishment and other programs (excepting DePaul) have little crumbs to hang their hat on but essentially are the same.

Completely false, misinformation.  Essentially the same?  St. John and Xavier essentially the same?  Seton Hall and Georgetown essentially the same?  There's an argument to be made that there are 4 tiers of this NBE and, if you can buy into that, Marquette is pretty clearly in the 3rd tier.

Also what are the "little crumbs" Marquette got to "hang their hat on"?  Intentionally vague analogy to, I assume, present as if Marquette has participated in any type of tangible success worth "hanging their hat on" even though this is patently false.

I can't believe that someone really just tried to purport that every team in the NBE has been "essentially the same" outside of Nova and Depaul.  Completely mind-blowing mental gymnastics to maintain an apologetic position for Wojo's subpar (QUITE SUBPAR) program.

[5DollarPitcher]

Completely false, misinformation.  Essentially the same?  St. John and Xavier essentially the same?  Seton Hall and Georgetown essentially the same?  There's an argument to be made that their are 4 tiers of this NBE and, if you can buy into that, Marquette is pretty clearly in the 3rd tier.

Also what are the "little crumbs" Marquette got to "hang their hat on"?  Intentionally vague analogy to, I assume, present as if Marquette has participated in any type of tangible success worth "hanging their hat on" even though this is patently false.

I can't believe that someone really just tried to purport that every team in the NBE has been "essentially the same" outside of Nova and Depaul.  Completely mind-blowing mental gymnastics to maintain an apologetic position for Wojo's subpar (QUITE SUBPAR) program.

To build on my 4 tier theory (since the inception of the new Big East):

Tier 1:  Villanova
Tier 2:  Xavier, Butler
Tier 3:  Seton Hall (I would begin to consider a move to Tier 2 after this season), Marquette, Providence, Creighton
Tier 4:  St. John, Georgetown, Depaul

These tiers are distinct and the teams have NOT been "essentially the same".

[brewcity77]

My only issue in the grand scheme is there is a portion of Scoop that ignores what Xavier and Butler were prior to Steele and Jordan taking over and being under .500. There is a portion of Scoop that feels if we're not Nova then that means we're no better than DePaul. On and on. It's always the extremes.

It's not ignoring Xavier & Butler to say they had to adjust to a significant step up in competition while teams coming from the old Big East were expected to take a step down. I don't think it's unfair to say the established programs had a leg up.

And if we were in the top tier, say with Nova and Xavier, it might be disappointing but more acceptable. If we had 2-3 Big East titles (between league & BET) & were routinely getting 3-7 seeds, that would be a lot different than where we are.

I agree with 5DP that we've essentially been a third tier team. Not the bottom, but not usually able to compete for the top and not making noise in March in either the Big East nor NCAA tournaments.

Whether people like to admit it or not, our results from 2011-13 were the best of any team entering the league. We were recruiting at the highest level. And we were picked universally to win the league from the start. My expectation was that the program stay at roughly the level it was at or modestly improve. I don't think that's an unfair or unrealistic expectation to have had.

Our final rankings in 2011-13 were 20/10/11 and we were preseason #17. Is it unrealistic to think we would remain a top-25 program & a contender every year in a league where the only team to appear ahead of us in any of those rankings was the 2011 Butler runners-up?

Hell, we had finished ranked in 6 of the last 7 years we were in the old Big East. It's not like my expectations were outside what we had already been doing anyway.

[Golden Avalanche]

To build on my 4 tier theory (since the inception of the new Big East):

Tier 1:  Villanova
Tier 2:  Xavier, Butler
Tier 3:  Seton Hall (I would begin to consider a move to Tier 2 after this season), Marquette, Providence, Creighton
Tier 4:  St. John, Georgetown, Depaul

These tiers are distinct and the teams have NOT been "essentially the same".

Cool theory. Stay on topic and make your theory based on the last half decade. You know, the timeframe I used in the post of mine that you quoted.

[5DollarPitcher]

Cool theory. Stay on topic and make your theory based on the last half decade. You know, the timeframe I used in the post of mine that you quoted.

You just called the last 5 years of the Xavier program and the Georgetown program "essentially the same".  You've lost all credibility.

[WarriorDad]

WTF is this even supposed to mean, Chico? 8 or 9 years is neither here nor there. The point is that we were in the OBE with Nova, GTown, SH, Providence, StJ and DePaul for a long time. We tied with GTown for the best record among the group, better than Villanova and much, much better than SH and Providence. Added to that we entered the NBE with the most momentum of any of those teams. But in the NBE, even former BE doormats SH and Providence have outperformed us and the difference between Nova and us is huge. If you're looking for the silver lining, we came in on a par with GTown and they've sucked worse than us - whoopee!

I was not quoting you or talking to you.  His prediction of Xavier, Georgetown and Marquette were not so great.  Similar predictions by Carson on his show.  Keep calling me someone else if you desire.

In my view some members here have ignored Butler, Xavier, and Creighton and have myopically focused only on the OBE members that came to the NBE.   

The ignoring of how we started the NBE also cannot be understated.  Picked to win the conference, we finish second tier in Coach Williams first year.  Then a coaching change and the usual player defections that happen as a result which starts the clock on a rebuild. 

Back to my original statement, MU has won three conference titles in over 30 years, in some rather ordinary conferences.  No coach won more than one. Despite this, we are supposed to dominate a top 3 conference when nothing in our history suggests this to be the case, and we have a coaching change, and we bring in other high basketball programs all hoping to establish the same path.   

My final comment for you and others.  It has been repeated here often that the administration will not allow the same recruiting it did for Coach Crean and Coach Williams.  If this is true, then why are you all expecting the same results from this current coach?  Coach Williams left because he couldn't do it, but you expect Wojo to be as good when not allowed to go after the same players?  Would Coach Crean be the same without Wade, Hayward?  Would Coach Williams be the same without Crowder and others?  We should all have the same answer of NO, they wouldn't be.  Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

[5DollarPitcher]

Therefore, why are you expecting better or even As Good results from this coach when he is not able to recruit the same type of players?

Yes, that's it! 

We all should have materially LOWERED our expectations from the program's actual historical results despite transitioning into a conference with multiple newcomers from midmajors and the leftovers from the mid-to-bottom of the old Big East (save Villanova and Georgetown) that was ripe for the taking because Wojo was not allowed to recruit the way he wants (despite the fact that he has already landed multiple blue chip recruits during his tenure and done squat with them).

That's why the majority of the fanbase is dissatisfied with the state of the program.  Excellent point, truly!

Should I even bother with teal?

[Small Orange Soda]

Wojo got the first McDonald's AA in thirty years to come here, and another on the way. He also recruited the all time leading scorer (as well as a couple of skilled brothers who left after Wojo lost the locker room). We know he's capable of recruiting talented players. His coaching and development skills remain the issue, and that's on him, not the administration.

[HowardsWorld]

Wojo got the first McDonald's AA in thirty years to come here, and another on the way. He also recruited the all time leading scorer (as well as a couple of skilled brothers who left after Wojo lost the locker room). We know he's capable of recruiting talented players. His coaching and development skills remain the issue, and that's on him, not the administration.

And what in the end did that net us? No Big East Conference Championships, No Big East Tournament Championship, 0 Ncaa Tournament wins. How anyone gave this guy anything but an F is beyond me.

[BM1090]

And what in the end did that net us? No Big East Conference Championships, No Big East Tournament Championship, 0 Ncaa Tournament wins. How anyone gave this guy anything but an F is beyond me.

So a guy who would have been to 3 tournaments in 4 years and has 5 winning seasons gets an F? What grades do you give Travis Steele, Patrick Ewing, Dave Leitao, etc. What about the 300+ coaches who finished worse than Wojo the past few years? You failing 90% of the class?

A C is fair. He's an average coach leading an average program right now.

[WarriorDad]

Yes, that's it! 

We all should have materially LOWERED our expectations from the program's actual historical results despite transitioning into a conference with multiple newcomers from midmajors and the leftovers from the mid-to-bottom of the old Big East (save Villanova and Georgetown) that was ripe for the taking because Wojo was not allowed to recruit the way he wants (despite the fact that he has already landed multiple blue chip recruits during his tenure and done squat with them).

That's why the majority of the fanbase is dissatisfied with the state of the program.  Excellent point, truly!

Should I even bother with teal?

You ducked the question.

[5DollarPitcher]

You ducked the question.

My answer to the question is the inverse of everything I just said tongue-in-cheek.

1.  More than half of the new Big East was either a) coming from a midmajor or b) a perennially mid-tier or bottom-dweller program in the old Big East.
2.  The new Big East was ripe for the "taking"; at least spots in the elite tier of the conference were.
2.  Despite whatever changes were implemented on our recruiting requirements, Wojo has secured multiple blue chip recruits.  However, he has not achieved anything with them.  In some cases, the player has gotten worse or not lived up to their billing as a recruit (Cain comes to mind).  So your "can't get the recruits we want / need / used to get" argument kind of just goes out the window.

Didn't think it would need to be literally spelled out, but alas.

[WarriorDad]

Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Horsesh*t.  All sorts of coaches don't recruit "ineligible academic kids" and perform better than Wojo.

[WhiteTrash]

Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

There's that and now Wojo has to try and get recruits to play in a three year old area. Honestly, I don't know why MU has basketball.

[MU82]

So a guy who would have been to 3 tournaments in 4 years and has 5 winning seasons gets an F? What grades do you give Travis Steele, Patrick Ewing, Dave Leitao, etc. What about the 300+ coaches who finished worse than Wojo the past few years? You failing 90% of the class?

A C is fair. He's an average coach leading an average program right now.

This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

[#UnleashSean]

Is Coach Wojo allowed to recruit the same type of players Coach Crean and Coach Williams were able to?  Specifically ineligible academic kids, those that have junior college credits that do not transfer?

If the answer is no and those previous coaches relied so heavily on those types of players for success how can you compare the situations?  You have hampered one coach from going after significant talent the others were allowed to, but expect the same results.  When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Heavily? There was exactly one of those players. Who Marquette has no problems promoting.

[#UnleashSean]

When Coach Williams was unable to sign those types of players in the end, he struggled.  He left.

Come off it. He struggled because his best player and would be point guard randomly attempted to go pro.

[#UnleashSean]

This.

Assuming we were going to the tourney this year, it's STILL 3 NCAAs in 4 years.

I know the big-time Wojo haters don't want to hear that. So they take their frustration about legit criticism -- such as our failure to come close to winning a tourney game during his run -- and go to the extreme: F-minus-minus-minus, and lop off his head. It's silly, and it ruins their argument because it's unreasonable.

C is average.  9 out of 10 coaches in America can't claim to have done even that.

So, naturally, FFFFFFFFFFF.

I hate to be seen as "defending" Wojo here. I have made my feelings known. It's just that when reason is thrown into the crapper, why even bother having these discussions?

9/10 coaches in the country don't get the budget of Marquette, the facilities of Marquette, the conference of Marquette, or the name of Marquette.

That's a completely bad argument and I know you're smart enough to know that.

[MU82]

9/10 coaches in the country don't get the budget of Marquette, the facilities of Marquette, the conference of Marquette, or the name of Marquette.

That's a completely bad argument and I know you're smart enough to know that.

I'm sticking with "Wojo hasn't won enough and needs to do better. He gets a C."

Aside from the very few bluebloods (and maybe not even them), there isn't a single school in the country that would fire a coach who goes to 3 NCAA tourneys in 4 years. It's obviously not an "F."

Claiming that a coach whose last 4 seasons includes an 82-49 record (39-33 in a very good conference) and 3 NCAA tournament bids is an "F" ... that's a completely bad argument, and I know you're smart enough to know that.