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Author Topic: Transfer Rule proposal  (Read 3376 times)

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2020, 07:53:12 PM »
A number of coaches were listed, they would be the experts on the ramifications....Jeff Goodman was just one of many I quoted.  I left another 20 or so quotes off.    As stated earlier, most of the Blue Bloods don't carry a full roster or they have 2 or 3 kids taking a scholarship that are there for GPA inflation / son of booster.  As others quoted, it won't just be the blue bloods that do the poaching as it will go from one tier to the next to the next.   

This kind of movement would never be tolerated in the pros.  Free agency was destroying the pro sports as it were which is why Salary Caps, franchise tags, home team exceptions were put in to undo the harm that free agency created.  The ultimate irony when people say free agency didn't destroy professional sports....only it was and had to be corrected.  No such remedies exist in the college game.  Going to be really sad to see how this all turns out. 

Coaches are not experts on the ramifications. Cmon...
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

rocket surgeon

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2020, 07:55:24 PM »
Coaches are not experts on the ramifications. Cmon...

why not?  they're the ones trying to game the system.  they all have a front row seat.  they know how all this works.  any honest person can see this would not end very well.  this is all about a big power grab
i'll take ape tit for $200 alex

Uncle Rico

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2020, 07:59:58 PM »
why not?  they're the ones trying to game the system.  they all have a front row seat.  they know how all this works.  any honest person can see this would not end very well.  this is all about a big power grab

Coaches are against anything that challenges their authority.  And every coach at a low major or mid-major would abandon the kids they want to keep at the first opportunity they got that was better.

Don’t let the Chicken Littles scare you.  Just as many kids will transfer down as up. 
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harryp

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2020, 08:05:38 PM »
With this rule in effect, would we have continuous recruiting? If someone liked Marcus after his soph year, could they recruit him then. Could they go on campus or to his home during the summer? During Xmas break?

Uncle Rico

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2020, 08:06:51 PM »
With this rule in effect, would we have continuous recruiting? If someone liked Marcus after his soph year, could they recruit him then. Could they go on campus or to his home during the summer? During Xmas break?

No
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2020, 08:18:57 PM »
why not?  they're the ones trying to game the system.  they all have a front row seat.  they know how all this works.  any honest person can see this would not end very well.  this is all about a big power grab

It will be fine. Don’t let Chico Little scare you.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Pakuni

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2020, 08:37:04 PM »
If they could supplement them with a Myles Powell, Markus Howard, other top players on next level teams....they can and will do it in a heartbeat.  That's the point.

If K or Cal can convince a player like Markus or Powell to leave their ideal situations to go play a lesser role, in a new system, at a new school, then more power to them.

But I fail to see how that's going to "destroy  the mid majors" and lead schools to drop their programs.
Marquette and Seton Hall would have played on had Markus and Powell gone pro last year. Why would them transferring somehow lead to a different result?

MU82

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM »
They sign a contract, that’s why.

As do coaches, dg, and for a helluva lot more benefits. Let's hold them all to the contracts they sign.

this is all about a big power grab

The current system is a big power grab. The schools and coaches have been grabbing all the power for decades.
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

cheebs09

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2020, 09:21:30 PM »
A number of coaches were listed, they would be the experts on the ramifications....Jeff Goodman was just one of many I quoted.  I left another 20 or so quotes off.   As stated earlier, most of the Blue Bloods don't carry a full roster or they have 2 or 3 kids taking a scholarship that are there for GPA inflation / son of booster.  As others quoted, it won't just be the blue bloods that do the poaching as it will go from one tier to the next to the next.   

This kind of movement would never be tolerated in the pros.  Free agency was destroying the pro sports as it were which is why Salary Caps, franchise tags, home team exceptions were put in to undo the harm that free agency created.  The ultimate irony when people say free agency didn't destroy professional sports....only it was and had to be corrected.  No such remedies exist in the college game.  Going to be really sad to see how this all turns out.

Is that true? I’ve heard that for walk-ons but did not think that was the case for scholarships.

jesmu84

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2020, 10:03:08 PM »
Fair question.  I believe a number of coaches have correctly stated what will happen with transfers and poaching....they've admitted it happens now at a minor level and it will happen to unbelievable extremes in the future.  I would characterize them as experts in the sense of recruiting, transfers, and roster management.  Do you disagree?

So, you classify them as experts because they state what you already believe?

What if there are other coaches, ADs, etc who state the opposite of these coaches? Are those opposing also considered experts?

What about current or former players?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes someone an expert

rocket surgeon

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2020, 10:21:57 PM »
It will be fine. Don’t let Chico Little scare you.

 i can think for myself thank you, but we both see the fire on the mountain here...something about great minds and fools coming to mind though
i'll take ape tit for $200 alex

rocky_warrior

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2020, 10:36:20 PM »
Old fogies don't like change, eh?

rocket surgeon

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2020, 10:52:41 PM »
Old fogies don't like change, eh?

 grasshopper advice to master po?  ;)
i'll take ape tit for $200 alex

dgies9156

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2020, 11:04:53 PM »
As do coaches, dg, and for a helluva lot more benefits. Let's hold them all to the contracts they sign.

I totally agree.

If you recall your Warrior History, back in 1970 Al wanted to become the first head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks. He went to Father John Raynor, SJ, figuring the release from his contract would be a formality. Upon meeting, Father Raynor reminded Al that a contract was a contract that  Father looked forward to Al being head coach at Marquette for a number of wonderful years to come.

Al went nowhere.

The crux of my point is this: the one year is arbitrary and a rule, not a contractual agreement. It goes back to the reserve clause in baseball and basketball. At the time, player contracts said a player would have to play out his contract and could be renewed automatically for another year (which MLB took to mean forever). A judge in 1967 ruled on NBA contracts that a year was a year.

The reason I propose a two-year scholarship is to give player and school time to evaluate. The player would get two years contractually and then would be free to do as he/she wishes at the end of two years. The school could then either do a second two-year scholarship or the player could go to another school and play immediately.

In the case of the Baby Hauser, he'd be playing for Michigan State this semester because his two years were up in December.

I also believe the NCAA could structure this so that the contract counts against total scholarships, whether the student-athlete stays or not. So if you have a Henry Ellenson, you have a second year with one less scholarship because you blew it on Henry. Cuts down on the one-and-done cases.


Shooter McGavin

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2020, 11:08:26 PM »
Old fogies don't like change, eh?

No,  I think they are thinking about what the potential pitfalls are going to be, something that many are not and don’t seem to care about.  Many questions about negative possibilities are answered like you have answered and not really helpful to the dialogue.   Many in fact want half measures instead of true free agency and capitalism and are therefore “chicken littles” themselves.

I believe this all will happen whether we like it or not.  It would be better if people on both sides of the argument could actually see both sides of it and could discuss the best way to solve it without being condescending.  Because it’s apparent the majority of people have not fully thought this through to its conclusion.

MU82

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2020, 11:10:22 PM »
I totally agree.

If you recall your Warrior History, back in 1970 Al wanted to become the first head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks. He went to Father John Raynor, SJ, figuring the release from his contract would be a formality. Upon meeting, Father Raynor reminded Al that a contract was a contract that  Father looked forward to Al being head coach at Marquette for a number of wonderful years to come.

Al went nowhere.

The crux of my point is this: the one year is arbitrary and a rule, not a contractual agreement. It goes back to the reserve clause in baseball and basketball. At the time, player contracts said a player would have to play out his contract and could be renewed automatically for another year (which MLB took to mean forever). A judge in 1967 ruled on NBA contracts that a year was a year.

The reason I propose a two-year scholarship is to give player and school time to evaluate. The player would get two years contractually and then would be free to do as he/she wishes at the end of two years. The school could then either do a second two-year scholarship or the player could go to another school and play immediately.

In the case of the Baby Hauser, he'd be playing for Michigan State this semester because his two years were up in December.

I also believe the NCAA could structure this so that the contract counts against total scholarships, whether the student-athlete stays or not. So if you have a Henry Ellenson, you have a second year with one less scholarship because you blew it on Henry. Cuts down on the one-and-done cases.

Yep, I know the Al story. That system doesn't exist today. For coaches, it's just about total free agency. It doesn't matter if they are only 9 months into a 5-year contract.

As for your solution, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.
“The advancement and diffusion of knowledge is the only guardian of true liberty.”

-- James Madison

Uncle Rico

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2020, 06:41:03 AM »
No,  I think they are thinking about what the potential pitfalls are going to be, something that many are not and don’t seem to care about.  Many questions about negative possibilities are answered like you have answered and not really helpful to the dialogue.   Many in fact want half measures instead of true free agency and capitalism and are therefore “chicken littles” themselves.

I believe this all will happen whether we like it or not.  It would be better if people on both sides of the argument could actually see both sides of it and could discuss the best way to solve it without being condescending.  Because it’s apparent the majority of people have not fully thought this through to its conclusion.

A student-athlete is allowed to transfer once without sitting out a year.  That’s the proposal being discussed.  You can’t transfer without penalty after that. 

Will the transfer rate increase? Yes.  Will some players leaving hurt programs?  Absolutely.  Will some go to blue bloods?  Absolutely.  Will some transfer down?  Absolutely. 

This will not kill college basketball.  Coaches love to talk family and team and creating a culture.  If they accomplish these things, their program will be successful and retain players.  For too many, these things are just lip service.

I’m all for guidelines establishing a timeframe for these one time transfers.  Kids leaving in season or say after a certain date after the season have to sit a year.  This is fair.  There are options.
Cooler.  20 Days.

lawdog77

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2020, 07:29:16 AM »
It is in some part still should be about giving kids the opportunity to graduate from the school of their choice, so I do not like giving the school the opportunity to "cut" kids. A scholarship should be a 4 year guarantee, with 1 free transfer,  eliminate the grad transfer rule. If an athlete has already transferred once, no grad transfer.

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2020, 09:33:42 AM »
Coaches are not experts on the ramifications. Cmon...

How are they not experts on this...they know what coaches will do to poach and what impacts to their teams if players are gone.  No one knows their teams better than the coach...that is literally part of their job.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2020, 09:37:53 AM »
No

LOL.  Of course they would.  The tampering and pandering would be nonstop.  You can pretend it is not official recruiting, but it would be off the charts....the coaches even said so in the quotes I gave you and they are the honest ones admitting it.  The dishonest ones, hell yes they are going to do “recruit” kids all the time.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2020, 09:38:45 AM »
It will be fine. Don’t let Chico Little scare you.

Or these coaches or other experts....they are all wrong...the snowflakes that have never worked in athletics and have no idea what they are talking about have it right....LOL.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2020, 09:39:59 AM »
So, you classify them as experts because they state what you already believe?

What if there are other coaches, ADs, etc who state the opposite of these coaches? Are those opposing also considered experts?

What about current or former players?

I'm just trying to figure out what makes someone an expert

There can be experts on both sides with differing opinions.  5 justices rule one way, 4 rule another...all are experts.   10,000 economists say one things, 10,000 say another.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2020, 09:40:48 AM »
Old fogies don't like change, eh?

Old fogies have wisdom and experience....younger people usually do not....what’s the famous Winston Churchill saying......
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Cheeks

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2020, 09:45:26 AM »
A student-athlete is allowed to transfer once without sitting out a year.  That’s the proposal being discussed.  You can’t transfer without penalty after that. 

Will the transfer rate increase? Yes.  Will some players leaving hurt programs?  Absolutely.  Will some go to blue bloods?  Absolutely.  Will some transfer down?  Absolutely. 

This will not kill college basketball.  Coaches love to talk family and team and creating a culture.  If they accomplish these things, their program will be successful and retain players.  For too many, these things are just lip service.

I’m all for guidelines establishing a timeframe for these one time transfers.  Kids leaving in season or say after a certain date after the season have to sit a year.  This is fair.  There are options.

A school believes in a kid and gives them a 4 year scholarship and develops the kid....now the kid ups and leaves.  Companies have policies / contracts if they develop someone (pay for their MBA) and the employee leaves early the employee must pay back the company.  If the kid has to reimburse the school, I’m open to this.

There are going to be so many roster changes that some schools instead of losing 3 or 4 kids could lose 7+ with no fault of their own....all because they had the audacity to take chances on kids that then blew up.  If you don’t think that isn’t going to destroy programs and set fan bases in revolt you are kidding yourself.
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

cheebs09

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Re: Transfer Rule proposal
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2020, 09:59:40 AM »
A school believes in a kid and gives them a 4 year scholarship and develops the kid....now the kid ups and leaves.  Companies have policies / contracts if they develop someone (pay for their MBA) and the employee leaves early the employee must pay back the company.  If the kid has to reimburse the school, I’m open to this.

There are going to be so many roster changes that some schools instead of losing 3 or 4 kids could lose 7+ with no fault of their own....all because they had the audacity to take chances on kids that then blew up.  If you don’t think that isn’t going to destroy programs and set fan bases in revolt you are kidding yourself.

I believe a scholarship is a one year contract, so technically, the school is not giving a 4 year scholarship. It would just be a terrible decision to actually enforce it.

 

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