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Author Topic: "Big Games"  (Read 2419 times)

4everDawson

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2020, 05:49:00 PM »
Finally! Someone acknowledges this! Thanks TAMU...you said it perfectly..They do about what you would expect them to, and no more. And I bet if you look back over Wojo's tenure, you will find similar results.

There is definitely something to be said for not losing to lessor teams.  Don't underrate it.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Elonsmusk

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2020, 06:34:58 PM »
Here are the numbers for KenPom Final top 25...overall I count 5-35 through last year.

15 - 0-12
16 - 0-6
17 - 1-6
18 - 0-10
19 - 4-1

To-date we are 2-5 with Purdue counting (#25) and our butler split not counting (#27)...

Wow.  Didn't think it was this bad.  So, to present with this year added into the above, we are 6-40 against legitimate caliber Top 25 teams. 

And we are 6-22 during Markus's time here.  He'll be a two time All-American.  But...the "trajectory" is good.  So.  There's that.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Galway Eagle

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2020, 06:48:43 PM »
Wow.  Didn't think it was this bad.  So, to present with this year added into the above, we are 6-40 against legitimate caliber Top 25 teams. 

And we are 6-22 during Markus's time here.  He'll be a two time All-American.  But...the "trajectory" is good.  So.  There's that.

I don't know what the records are but shouldn't you wait to see Crean and Buzz's before making judgements?
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2020, 07:07:36 PM »
Crean (starting 2002) -- first year available
02 - 3-2 (both losses to #2 Cincy)
03 - 5-3 (losses to 10, 18 and 2 - beat #1 in the best game i have personally witnessed)
04 - 2-3
05 - 1-4
06 - 4-4
07 - 5-6
08 - 5-8

25-30

Note six were outs in the conference tourney or NCAA tourney
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 07:17:39 PM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

Elonsmusk

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2020, 07:12:19 PM »
I don't know what the records are but shouldn't you wait to see Crean and Buzz's before making judgements?

Well, you should go ahead and do the research and post it here.  Though I suspect you already have.  Then, if you would, post the records of Crean, Buzz and Wojo in the NCAA tournament.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2020, 07:13:25 PM »
Buzz
09 - 2-7
10 - 3-6
11 - 6-9
12 - 3-5
13 - 6-4 (actually lost to 1 & 2 that year)
14 - 0-7

20-31

Note 8 of the top-25 losses were outs in the BEast tourney or NCAA tourney
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 07:16:10 PM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

BM1090

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2020, 07:13:59 PM »
Wow.  Didn't think it was this bad.  So, to present with this year added into the above, we are 6-40 against legitimate caliber Top 25 teams. 

And we are 6-22 during Markus's time here.  He'll be a two time All-American.  But...the "trajectory" is good.  So.  There's that.

2-5 this year, so 8-31. Not much better.

However, 6-6 the past two years is totally fine. Need to maintain where we are now. Can't regress back to the year 1-4 performance.

6-6 after a 2-25 start. That in itself is a good trajectory. Though I'll concede there was really nowhere to go but up from 2-25.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 07:16:07 PM by BM1090 »

muguru

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2020, 07:23:46 PM »
There is definitely something to be said for not losing to lessor teams.  Don't underrate it.

Well that's just it...They always also have at least one or two "how the F did they lose to them" games every year as well. As much as there is something to be said for MOSTLY not losing to teams you should beat..it's also not good when that's all you typically do. I mean, is that the definition pretty much of average?? Doing what you are supposed to do, almost never more than that. This is why I have said this program is spinning it's wheels. Almost every time they have a chance to rise up, get some major traction going on the national level consistently...they didn't answer the bell. And it hasn't been just this year either.

I mean it gets beaten to death here, but the slide at the end of the year last year when they had to win ONE game to be BE champions...ONE. Something that could have potentially changed the trajectory of the program. And no matter what the reasons were for the slide..you should have been able to at least back into one win down the stretch..Georgetown at home last year is a good example of losing to someone they had no business losing to(regardless of circumstances).
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 07:51:08 PM by muguru »
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Elonsmusk

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2020, 07:24:53 PM »
2-5 this year, so 8-31. Not much better.

However, 6-6 the past two years is totally fine. Need to maintain where we are now. Can't regress back to the year 1-4 performance.

6-6 after a 2-25 start. That in itself is a good trajectory. Though I'll concede there was really nowhere to go but up from 2-25.

Think your calculations may be wrong (mine were too).  During the last three years, plus this year (Markus's last), we are 7-23 against Top 25.

And sure, you can say we are 6-6 these last two years, yet 4-1 to present 2-5 this year, doesn't trend well. Additionally, I suspect we take a step back next year with Markus gone too.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Galway Eagle

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2020, 07:30:16 PM »
Well, you should go ahead and do the research and post it here.  Though I suspect you already have.  Then, if you would, post the records of Crean, Buzz and Wojo in the NCAA tournament.

You would be wrong as I don't have a Kenpom subscription hence the "I don't know" portion of my statement. How arrogant can you be?
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

BM1090

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2020, 07:33:38 PM »
Think your calculations may be wrong (mine were too).  During the last three years, plus this year (Markus's last), we are 7-23 against Top 25.

And sure, you can say we are 6-6 these last two years, yet 4-1 to present 2-5 this year, doesn't trend well. Additionally, I suspect we take a step back next year with Markus gone too.

It's possible. I'll double check later, but was just using the numbers in the above post.

Lennys Tap

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2020, 07:36:30 PM »
You would be wrong as I don't have a Kenpom subscription hence the "I don't know" portion of my statement. How arrogant can you be?

You don’t need a subscription. Google Pomeroy final rankings and you can get any year.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2020, 07:45:18 PM »
One nit. The SOS of #4 you're referring to doesn't measure difficulty or 'toughness' of schedule. It's complete nonsense.

We have had a relatively difficult schedule, but not top 5 by any reasonable measurement.

You are correct, I phrased that poorly.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Elonsmusk

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2020, 08:13:35 PM »
You would be wrong as I don't have a Kenpom subscription hence the "I don't know" portion of my statement. How arrogant can you be?

Not very.  I'm sorry if I offended you.  I assumed you had done the research - which ultimately shows the pretty stark contrast in "big games" between Wojo and our last two coaches.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2020, 08:18:20 PM »
Not very.  I'm sorry if I offended you.  I assumed you had done the research - which ultimately shows the pretty stark contrast in "big games" between Wojo and our last two coaches.

To be fair, we just haven’t been as good. Unless you believe heavily in the future, wojo will not win any analytical analysis.  The past results are not his friend. 

I was actually surprised how well crean did.  He performed quite well despite some tough years in there post FF and starting out in CUSA.  Made me think more highly of his tenure. 

Conversely 15 of Buzz’s losses were final outs or the stinker year.  Wow if you take those out. 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 08:21:30 PM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

PointWarrior

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2020, 09:21:06 PM »
8-31 against top 25 kenpom teams.    Enough said,  not even sure that qualifies for mediocrity status. 

GoldenEagles32

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2020, 09:40:43 PM »
8-31 against top 25 kenpom teams.    Enough said,  not even sure that qualifies for mediocrity status.
what does it qualify for?
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TAMU Garcia

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2020, 11:48:45 PM »
8-31 against top 25 kenpom teams.    Enough said,  not even sure that qualifies for mediocrity status.

Yes, but 18 of those losses and 0 of the wins came in the first two years. I'm not hear to rehash the great empty cupboard debate, just pointing out that when I evaluate an employee, I tend to focus more on the work in recent years then when the employee was first starting out. Personally, I have yet to fire someone for something s/he did 5+ years ago that was public knowledge.

No one is going to win a debate saying that Wojo had a better first 5 years than either Crean or Buzz. Anyone who tries is not a smart person. What matters though is where you think the current coach is going. 7-22 in the last 4 years, still not great. 6-6 in the last 2? I can get behind that. 2-5 this year? Not good but not fireable either. We'll see if the past two seasons are blips, the high water mark for Wojo's career, or just the next step in his development.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Goose

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2020, 09:51:09 AM »
TAMU

I think your post in fair in judgement for the most part. My only issue is that at some point we need to know the high water point. It keeps getting kicked down the can. When is enough time for you to judge if he hit the high water mark or not? It appears that next year will be another step backwards and then hoping the following year is an improvement. I have said all along I have no problem with things taking time if the end game looks much better than the previous six years.

TAMU Garcia

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2020, 08:46:22 PM »
TAMU

I think your post in fair in judgement for the most part. My only issue is that at some point we need to know the high water point. It keeps getting kicked down the can. When is enough time for you to judge if he hit the high water mark or not? It appears that next year will be another step backwards and then hoping the following year is an improvement. I have said all along I have no problem with things taking time if the end game looks much better than the previous six years.

I mean, we will never "know" the high water point. There are coaches whose careers start off terribly and end up being HOFers (Majerus) and coaches whose careers start with a bang who end up being busts (Ollie). You make decisions based on what you think is best for the program moving forward. Personally, I think the likelihood of Wojo being a success long term is greater than the likelihood of hiring the right replacement and them being successful. Maybe the end of this season will change my opinion on that, but I don't think so.

You are right that next season will most likely be a step backwards. I think anyone expecting improvement after graduating a NPOY candidate, arguably our second best player, and a key reserve is likely to be disappointed. It'll be the first year of Wojo's third recruiting cycle so in order to improve, he needs to do better than his NIT 2 seed from 2018. If he makes the tournament, I think he ends up being safe for another three years as I would only expect the 2020 class to improve and continue to make the tournament. If he misses the tournament, that may be the year the Nojos get their wish.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Johnny B

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2020, 08:53:08 PM »
8-31 against top 25 kenpom teams.    Enough said,  not even sure that qualifies for mediocrity status.
If it's such a mediocre program why dont you just make a like a tree and leaf for another team

TAMU Garcia

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Re: "Big Games"
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2020, 10:09:11 AM »
MU's Record by Current Seeds on Bracket Matrix:

2 Seed: 0-1 (vs. Maryland)
3 Seed: 1-4 (Creighton x2, Nova x2, @Hall)
6 Seed: 1-1 (Butler x2)
7 Seed: 0-1 (@Bucky)
10 Seed: 2-0 (Xavier x2)
11 Seed: 1-2 (USC, Providence x2)
Next 4 Out: 3-0 (Purdue, Georgetown x2)
Everyone Else: 10-0

Wins the games he should (-Provence at home), loses the games he should (- maybe Nova or @X). Definitely get the big game frustration. If this pattern holds, should win the opening game of NCAA this season but will need to put together a previously unseen performance to get to the Sweet 16.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper